Illegals and the law

[tattoojr]

I saw a news story on Costa Mesa Cali. and the Mayor there has enpowered the police to deport illegal aleins that are caught breaking the law. Un like cities like Denver and other large SW cities that look the other way when illegals do anything wrong. I think that this man is right all the way. Illegals are costing U.S. taxpayer money and are taking away money from citizens that use/need public services. What ya'll think. J.R.

[BigBoyJ]

I wish the government would empower police to shoot them.

[IPmeds]

damn shooting them is a bit harsh IMO, teaching them to be productive citizen's seem like a smoother ticket

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

The main argument from ILLEGAL immigrants and their supporters is that they should be given legal status, since they contribute to this system by paying about as much taxes as the ordinary American citizen.

I have to call bullshit on this one...

FIRST: Illegal immigrants have astronamically driven up taxes due to the greatly increased costs on Social Services, whether it be police, emergency rescue services, welfare, Medicaid, housing assistance, increased costs of public schools (which are REQUIRED to teach any student, regardless of their immigration status), etc.

SECOND: Illegal immigrants greatly DEPRESS (reduce) wages by undercutting the average American citizen who refuses to bust their ass everyday for minimum wage--IF NOT LESS.

THIRD: Illegal immigrants--NOR THE CRIMINAL EMPLOYERS WHO HIRE THEM-- don't contribute to the "system" by paying payroll taxes (such as Social Security tax).

FOURTH: How much money can illegal immigrants pay in taxes, when their major expenditure is CARONAS:p LOL

[Habanero]

The main argument from ILLEGAL immigrants and their supporters is that they should be given legal status, since they contribute to this system by paying about as much taxes as the ordinary American citizen.

I have to call bullshit on this one...

FIRST: Illegal immigrants have astronamically driven up taxes due to the greatly increased costs on Social Services, whether it be police, emergency rescue services, welfare, Medicaid, housing assistance, increased costs of public schools (which are REQUIRED to teach any student, regardless of their immigration status), etc.

This is "astronomically" wrong. It is not even remotely true from a national perspective and I can direct you to numerous statitistical resources. On a state level, specifically in California, Arizona and Texas I would concede that illegal imagrants do cause a strain on social services, primarily in the area of medical services. This, however, is do more to the national healthcare crisis than illegal immagration. In california, the system is just plain broken, but yes, I guess illegals aggravate it. I would assert, however, that absent illegal immagration the state would still be in complete kaos.



SECOND: Illegal immigrants greatly DEPRESS (reduce) wages by undercutting the average American citizen who refuses to bust their ass everyday for minimum wage--IF NOT LESS.


Hmmm...labor arbitrage is when wages move geographically to lower wage areas or people willing to accept lower wages move towards lower paying jobs. It's based on the fundamental economic principal of supply and demand. It is not a new concept and is formaly called Ricardo's "Thoery of Comaparative Advantage." The USA has based its foriegn trade policy on this theory. American citizens are loosing countless jobs to india and china daily, even while you read this thread. It started in the the 70's with garment manufacturing going to places like India and Bangladesh. Globalization is the enemy of the Average Citizen when it comes to jobs not some poor mexican picking strawberries in Fresno trying to make a life for his family. Do you shop at Walmart?? How do you think Walmart can sell there products at such a low price??? Because they are a $200 Billion/year company that is the largest consumer of manufactured goods in China and India. The Average American Citizen benefits greatly from these low prices, don't they? When Sam Walton started WalMart his slogan was "made in America." Well guess what, its "made in China" now. That means the jobs are gone!! The average american can bust his ass for minimum wage all day long. The job isn't there, its gone forever!!!!!


THIRD: Illegal immigrants--NOR THE CRIMINAL EMPLOYERS WHO HIRE THEM-- don't contribute to the "system" by paying payroll taxes (such as Social Security tax).


It is common knowledge that an employer is required to complete an INS form I-9 for each employee. This requires the empolyer to check for a valid state ID, SSN# and proof of residency. They are not required to validate the authenticity of such documents. Once hired the employee will complete a W-4 and pay payroll taxes just like everybody else. This tends to be the majority of cases. When people get paid cash, however, no taxes are paid. That's for both legals and non-legals 'cause we all like to fuck Uncle Sam on taxes right? Go to the IRS web-site and see what the estimates are on people who do not pay or short pay taxes. Then compare that number the national deficit. You'll see they are very close. Oh, and the wealthiest, to include corporations, cheat the worst. That's common knowledge.


FOURTH: How much money can illegal immigrants pay in taxes, when their major expenditure is CARONAS:p LOL

Ooh, that's kind of racisit. But that's cool I'll let your ignorance and bigotry slide this time. Pay attention to what I wrote and focus on the black letters. Maybe you learn what this issue is really all about. Respect, Hab.

[IPmeds]

there's definately going to be a mixed reaction to this subject

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

This is "astronomically" wrong. It is not even remotely true from a national perspective and I can direct you to numerous statitistical resources. On a state level, specifically in California, Arizona and Texas I would concede that illegal imagrants do cause a strain on social services, primarily in the area of medical services. This, however, is do more to the national healthcare crisis than illegal immagration. In california, the system is just plain broken, but yes, I guess illegals aggravate it. I would assert, however, that absent illegal immagration the state would still be in complete kaos.




Hmmm...labor arbitrage is when wages move geographically to lower wage areas or people willing to accept lower wages move towards lower paying jobs. It's based on the fundamental economic principal of supply and demand. It is not a new concept and is formaly called Ricardo's "Thoery of Comaparative Advantage." The USA has based its foriegn trade policy on this theory. American citizens are loosing countless jobs to india and china daily, even while you read this thread. It started in the the 70's with garment manufacturing going to places like India and Bangladesh. Globalization is the enemy of the Average Citizen when it comes to jobs not some poor mexican picking strawberries in Fresno trying to make a life for his family. Do you shop at Walmart?? How do you think Walmart can sell there products at such a low price??? Because they are a $200 Billion/year company that is the largest consumer of manufactured goods in China and India. The Average American Citizen benefits greatly from these low prices, don't they? When Sam Walton started WalMart his slogan was "made in America." Well guess what, its "made in China" now. That means the jobs are gone!! The average american can bust his ass for minimum wage all day long. The job isn't there, its gone forever!!!!!



It is common knowledge that an employer is required to complete an INS form I-9 for each employee. This requires the empolyer to check for a valid state ID, SSN# and proof of residency. They are not required to validate the authenticity of such documents. Once hired the employee will complete a W-4 and pay payroll taxes just like everybody else. This tends to be the majority of cases. When people get paid cash, however, no taxes are paid. That's for both legals and non-legals 'cause we all like to fuck Uncle Sam on taxes right? Go to the IRS web-site and see what the estimates are on people who do not pay or short pay taxes. Then compare that number the national deficit. You'll see they are very close. Oh, and the wealthiest, to include corporations, cheat the worst. That's common knowledge.



Ooh, that's kind of racisit. But that's cool I'll let your ignorance and bigotry slide this time. Pay attention to what I wrote and focus on the black letters. Maybe you learn what this issue is really all about. Respect, Hab.

Anyone can REPRINT so-called "factual evidence" derived from supposedly "unbiased" studies conducted by ILLEGAL immigrant activists.

But the truth prevails, and you don't need to conduct a bunch of million dollar studies to realize that truth.

You are wrong to say that the healthcare systems in states like CA, TX and AZ would be broken without illegal immigration. Every UNBIASED study conducted on that situation proves that millions of uninsured, illegal immigrants have caused BILLIONS of dollars in higher health care costs for the state, of which those costs are eventually passed down to legal, taxpaying citizens of those very same states.

And the statement about the IRS I-9 form is pure bullshit. You think that all, or even most, employers who hire illegal immigrants say, "Well, I'm going to hire illegal immigrants, and pay them shit wages "under the table", but then I'm going to change course in mid-stream and follow one of the laws---even though I've already broken DOZENS?"

No. This is fantasyland conjecture created by illegal immigrant supporters to say that although they are illegal, they "somehow" still contribute to the "system" by paying federal/state income taxes, including Social Security and Medicare tax.

Furthermore, illegal immigrants have caused automotive insurance rates for legal immigrants and American citizens to skyrocket, since there are now millions of unskilled, outright bad drivers on the road who are uninsured and wreaking havoc on the roadways. Even IF they were LEGAL immigrants--they would still REFUSE to purchase car insurance, as we have seen a great deal of legal immigrants still refuse to purchase car insurance.

In summary, the whole ILLEGAL immigration debates boils down to citizens of foreign nations not respecting or abiding by the laws and rules of a seperate, sovereign nation that has been SUPPORTING those citizens (as is the case in Mexico) with BILLIONS of dollars a year in food and military aid, etc.

Fact is, Mexico's Army would consist of a few sling-shots if it weren't for the USA.

What I don't understand with people like you, Habanero, is why do you think that American citizens---who have been supporting your "people" for decades back in Mexico---should continue to support them here in the USA, when they come here illegally in the first place? Are you all that pissed off that one future American state--the Republic of Texas--was able to beat the hell out of the entire Mexican Army, which was supposedly so great under the general Santa Anna?

You "people" say you have so much pride in yourselves and your country, yet you all refuse to take a page out of the American textbook and overthrow your oppressive, EXTREMELY CORRUPT Mexican government that has kept your economy in shambles, and your people in poverty.

It is much easier for you all to come here and milk the American taxpayers, rather than have a spine and overthrow your current government.

[BigBoyJ]

Anal Assassin, it's nice to see someone with a brain posting. Good job.

[Habanero]

Hear are the four proposals currently being debated in congress (from 4/10/06 issue of Time Mag)...

THE HOUSE CRACKDOWN

F. James Sensenbrenner Submitted by the Wisconsin Republican and 35 cosponsors, the bill passed in the House in December. Focused exclusively on security and enforcement, it has sparked protests nationwide.

The bill treats an illegal alien's mere presence in the country--currently only a civil violation--as a felony punishable by a year and a day in jail and establishes mandatory minimum sentences for repeat offenders. Its sweeping language would make giving even humanitarian assistance to an illegal immigrant a crime punishable by up to five years in prison. Fines for an employer who hires illegal immigrants, which now range from $250 to $10,000 per violation, depending on the employer's previous conduct, would be increased to $5,000 to $25,000. Criminal penalties for repeat offenders could include a minimum of a year in jail, up from a maximum of six months. Among the border enhancements: a 700-mile double fence along part of the 2,000-mile frontier with Mexico.

A MIDDLE-GROUND OPTION

Jon Kyl Arizona Republican Kyl last year co-sponsored with Senator John Cornyn of Texas a bill that sought a compromise between the harsh penatlities of the Sensenbrenner plan and the more lenient Senate proposals.

The bill provides for a guest-worker program but requires illegal immigrants to leave the U.S. before they apply for it. They must leave within five years; delaying departure cuts into their future U.S. stay. Those and any new immigrant laborers can apply for a two-year visa that can be renewed twice, with a one-year gap between renewals that must be spent outside the U.S. and a lifetime cap of six years. The visa offers no special path to permanent residency or citizenship. The bill doubles existing civil penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants and authorizes the addition of 10,000 agents over five years to investigate businesses for violations of immigration law and 1,000 agents to look for fraud in visa applications. To improve policing on the borders, it increases agents and enhances surveillance technology, among other things.

THE PRESIDENT'S BLUEPRINT

George W. Bush In his earliest days in the White House, Bush made establishing a guest-worker program a priority. The aftermath of 9/11 distracted him from the goal, but he has again turned his attention to it.

The President has proposed that illegal immigrants be permitted to stay in the U.S. and apply for a three-year temporary work visa that could be renewed once. Their incentive to leave after six years would come in the form of tax-preferred savings accounts set up in their country of origin. Bush has stressed that because he does not believe illegal acts should be rewarded, the visas would provide no "automatic" path to permanent residency and citizenship. But, as he told Mexican President Vicente Fox last week, guest workers can "get in line," like all other applicants. Bush has promised that laws against hiring illegal aliens would be more stringently enforced. And bowing to the need to win over hard-liners in his party, he has called for more resources to guard the borders against those who cross illegally.

THE GRAND REFORM

Arlen Specter Large portions of a bill introduced by Senators Edward Kennedy and John McCain last year were incorporated into this one, now named for Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Arlen Specter.

The bill would permit illegal immigrants who were in the U.S. before Jan. 7, 2004, to apply for a three-year guest-worker visa, which could be renewed once if they paid a $1,000 fine and passed a background check. After six years, if they demonstrated English proficiency and paid another $1,000 fine and back taxes, they could apply for permanent residency, the first step toward citizenship. Laborers abroad could apply for the same visa, which in their case would be capped at 400,000 annually; at least 87,000 of those workers would be eligible to apply for green cards each year. The bill would also authorize work permits for 1.5 million farm laborers over five years. They too could apply for residency. Civil sanctions for hiring illegal immigrants are similar to those in Kyl's bill. The bill would step up investigations of employers and border enforcement.

[Habanero]

Anyone can REPRINT so-called "factual evidence" derived from supposedly "unbiased" studies conducted by ILLEGAL immigrant activists..

Is there such a thing as "unbiased" data, lol. I read a cool book once called "How to Lie With Statistics" by Darrell Huff and Irving Geis. You can buy it on amozon for $10. I highly recommend it.



You are wrong to say that the healthcare systems in states like CA, TX and AZ would be broken without illegal immigration. Every UNBIASED study conducted on that situation proves that millions of uninsured, illegal immigrants have caused BILLIONS of dollars in higher health care costs for the state, of which those costs are eventually passed down to legal, taxpaying citizens of those very same states...

Nick, pick up a newspaper. The system is broken. The majority of americans do not have health insurance because it is not affordable. Illegal immigrants aggreavate the problem. Kind of like adding insult to injury. For example, Mexicans sneak across the border and go to US emergency rooms in border towns to have babies because we cannot legally refuse medical care. Eventually,they drain the resources of the hospital so that it cannot service the americans in the community it serves. That happens every day and its wrong.


And the statement about the IRS I-9 form is pure bullshit. You think that all, or even most, employers who hire illegal immigrants say, "Well, I'm going to hire illegal immigrants, and pay them shit wages "under the table", but then I'm going to change course in mid-stream and follow one of the laws---even though I've already broken DOZENS?"...

Okay, so you didn't fall for the I-9 angle, but it was good, huh? This is a tough one, Nick. I think I'll start a thread on globalization as it effects US labor -- I've been studying that one for a couple of years--in an attempt to survive. Mex illegals get the shit expolited out of them. Amercian business benefits from lower costs which it in turn passess on the the consumer in the form of lower prices. Mexico, USA, Canada -- none of these countries can compete with China or India. Did you know that the average per capita income of an indian is about $575 US. For 20K/year you can live like a king in India. Who the hell can compete with that?



Furthermore, illegal immigrants have caused automotive insurance rates for legal immigrants and American citizens to skyrocket, since there are now millions of unskilled, outright bad drivers on the road who are uninsured and wreaking havoc on the roadways. Even IF they were LEGAL immigrants--they would still REFUSE to purchase car insurance, as we have seen a great deal of legal immigrants still refuse to purchase car insurance.

Dude, I pay $3,500/year for 2 trucks with an emaculate driving record. That's a car payment! It's not the mexicans, its the insurance companies and the ambulance chasing lawyers. It's called red-lining counties. Anyways, they are pretty crappy drivers and most of them do not have insurance. The cool thing though is that if one of them hits you from behind you can punch them in the face and get away with 'cause they won't call the cops.


What I don't understand with people like you, Habanero, is why do you think that American citizens---who have been supporting your "people" for decades back in Mexico
...

Say man, what's up with the "you people" shit. Who the hell said I was mexican. Did you read the board rules, you know like the part about flaming. Plus, I don't play that soap box racial shit. I'm an tax paying american citizen, bro. I've served my country and was prepared to die for that flag. I'm just taking the other side of the arguement to make the debate interesting and stimulate dialouge. Stick to the issues and we'll be cool. If I want aggrevation, I'll talk to my wife.

Anyways, I posted the congressional proposals if you want to keep it going. I think the real issue is the MEXICAN BORDER---it's too porous. Respect, Hab.

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

I only used "you people" since I did not know whether YOU personally were a Mexican/OTM or not.

SO I used "you people" to classify the segment of the population that consists of illegal immigrants, and/or supporters of their cause.

While I also have respect for you as a human being, I don't have respect for the people who you support. By their own personal activities, I don't think most of them have respect for THEMSELVES.

Peace

[Habanero]

U.S. Prepares for 'Day Without Immigrants'
From Associated Press
May 01, 2006 9:08 AM EDT

Thousands of illegal immigrants and their allies across the country plan a show of force Monday to illustrate how much immigrants matter in the U.S. economy.

Some will skip work, others will protest at lunch breaks, school walkouts or at rallies after work. There are planned church services, candlelight vigils, picnics and human chains.

Hector Castillo, a Denver baker, usually keeps his doors open 360 days a year. But anybody looking for his Mexican pastries or cookies will be out of luck Monday when Castillo plans to close his doors in sympathy with immigrants. For Castillo, 45, it's a protest against legislation in the U.S. House that would make it a felony to be an illegal immigrant.

"About 80 percent of our customers are Latin people, most of them Mexican, and the proposed law will affect all of us," he said.

Thanks to the success of previous rallies plus media attention, planning for Monday's events, collectively called Un Dia Sin Inmigrantes - A Day Without Immigrants - is widespread, though fragmented.

"It's highly unpredictable what's going to happen," said Harley Shaiken, director of the Center for Latin American studies at the University of California. "What unites everyone that's going to do something on May 1 is they are making visible their strong feelings."

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson said Monday he was concerned that the demonstrations "are going to be a distraction from what the real issue is, and that is the need for comprehensive immigration reform."

Rather than a boycott, immigrants should work to pressure Congress to pass legislation that would allow those already in the country to earn U.S. citizenship, Richardson told CBS' "The Early Show."

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., told CBS that the U.S. should first secure its borders to stem illegal immigration. "I would then prefer to see us come up with some way to let" immigrants here "pay a fine, pay a price, then learn English and get on a path to citizenship."

Some workers and immigrant advocates are worried that employees could lose their jobs or otherwise face negative consequences for skipping work to participate in protests.

"We're not officially coordinating a work stoppage. We are leaving it up to every individual. We don't want people to lose a job, but we want to encourage people to stand up for their rights," said Maria Rodriguez, head of the Florida Immigrant Coalition.

Activists planned marches, prayers and demonstartions in Ft. Lauderdale, Sarasota and other cities around Florida, but organizers did not expect as many people to attend Monday's events as the estimated 75,000 who attended an April 11 rally in Fort Myers.

Activists said a few immigrants lost their jobs after that march, and many were concerned about recent Homeland Security immigration raids, in which hundreds of immigrants with criminal backgrounds were rounded up in Florida and throughout the Midwest.

On the eve of the protest, about 3,000 people rallied for immigrant rights at a park in Lynwood, a heavily Hispanic Los Angeles suburb. Organizers of the demonstration called on residents and businesses to support the boycott.

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa urged students to stay in school during the day and advised protesters against waving flags of their native countries.

"You should wave the American flag," he said. "It's the flag of the country that we all are proud of and want to be a part of. Don't disrespect the traditions of this country."

A rally in Chicago representing the city's Arab, Asian, black, eastern European and Hispanic communities, along with labor groups and religious leaders, could bring out as many as half a million people, organizers say. They urged immigrant workers to ask for time off and encouraged students to get permission to attend the demonstration.

"Stand in solidarity with people of all races and nationalities because immigration legislation does not just affect one group; it affects everyone!" Sadiya Ahmed, with the Council on American-Islamic Relations, wrote in a recent e-mail.

In smaller cities such as Allentown, Pa.; Omaha, Neb.; and Knoxville, Tenn., immigrants and their allies have been going door to door with fliers, making posters and sharpening speeches. In New Mexico, restaurants cooked meals this weekend to donate to picnics Monday in Santa Fe and Albuquerque.

In Pomona, Calif., about 30 miles east of Los Angeles, dozens of men who frequent a day labor center voted unanimously to close Monday, said Mike Nava, the center's director.

In New Jersey, Rhode Island, Oregon and Pennsylvania, people boycotting work will march to the offices of elected officials to urge them to support pro-immigrant legislation.

Activists in Florida said many immigrants were concerned about recent federal raids, in which hundreds of immigrants with criminal backgrounds were rounded up in Florida and throughout the Midwest.

"We're not officially coordinating a work stoppage. We are leaving it up to every individual. We don't want people to lose a job, but we want to encourage people to stand up for their rights," said Maria Rodriguez, head of the Florida Immigrant Coalition.

In California, a spokeswoman for Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said a boycott would "hurt everyone," while Democratic state senators passed a resolution supporting walkouts.

Opponents of illegal immigration spent the weekend building a fence to symbolize their support of a secure border. About 200 volunteers organized by the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps of California worked on a 6-foot barbed-wire fence along a quarter-mile stretch of rugged terrain near the U.S.-Mexico border about 50 miles east of San Diego.

In each of New York City's five boroughs, thousands of workers were expected to take work breaks shortly after noon to link arms with shoppers, restaurant-goers and other supporters for about 20 minutes.

"This will symbolize the interdependence of all of us, not just immigrants, but all of society," said Chung-Wa Hong, executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition.

Some big businesses are shutting down operations: Six of 14 Perdue Farms plants will close; Gallo Wines in Sonoma, Calif., is giving its 150 employees the day off; Tyson Foods Inc., the world's largest meat producer, will shut five of its nine beef plants and four of six pork plants.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops urged immigrants to attend Mass instead of boycotting, and suggested that churches toll their bells in memory of immigrants who died trying to come to the U.S. They also urged students to stay in school.

Denver-area contractor Chuck Saxton, who hires temporary workers, is sympathetic to the movement. "I'm going to go to support them. These guys come here, they work hard and they're honest," he said. "They provide a vibrancy to our economy and our country that is fading."

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

After looking around at the protesting people on TV---mostly illegal immigrants who can't vote in the first place---and whose major disruption of the American economy was not buying Coronas for a day---all I have to say is:

YAWN:p

[Habanero]

After looking around at the protesting people on TV---mostly illegal immigrants who can't vote in the first place---and whose major disruption of the American economy was not buying Coronas for a day---all I have to say is:

YAWN:p

What upset me was that protesters and the media are calling this an immigration issue and it is not. It is an ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION issue --- ILLEGAL!!! What about all of the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. ALL I can say is those protesters do not speak or represent the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in America who are of the opinion that as a soverign nation we have the right to chose you enters our country. I say fill out an application, get in line and obey the laws like the rest of us :mad:

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

What upset me was that protesters and the media are calling this an immigration issue and it is not. It is an ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION issue --- ILLEGAL!!! What about all of the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. ALL I can say is those protesters do not speak or represent the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in America who are of the opinion that as a soverign nation we have the right to chose you enters our country. I say fill out an application, get in line and obey the laws like the rest of us :mad:

You definetly have a point there, Habanero.

The issues regarding LEGAL immigrants should come before that of illegal immigrants. Additionally, the growing hatred of illegal immigrants and their negative effects on the American economy and overall society is fueling hatred that is now UNJUSTIFIABLY spilling over toward legal immigrants.

Furthermore, legal immigrants in the USA are getting sick and tired of waiting years--if not over a decade--to get a chance to come to the USA legally, while others just feel that American laws don't apply to them and sneak across the border.

Many potential LEGAL immigrants--and ones already living in the USA--like Eastern Europeans/Russians, Indians, etc. are very upset about these violaters of numerous American immigration laws being able to "cut" ahead of them in line to the USA, while they must wait a long time because of their misfortune not to be born in a country that borders the USA.

Yet what I still don't understand is:

Why don't these Mexicans, who are tired of the very poor and corrupt economic situation in MEXICO, PROTEST IN MEXICO CITY? Are they lost? Maybe we need to buy 10 million maps and point them south?

Why are they making DEMANDS upon the President of the USA, when they should make DEMANDS of the President of Mexico (Vicente Fox), who they (supposedly) voted for?

Maybe they need to take a page out of American history and overthrow THEIR government.

[Habanero]

I think this is an interesting theory on why certain latin american countries NEED illegal immigration to continue.......

**** Source = Associated Press 3/14/2006

MEXICO CITY (AP) - A proposal in Congress to legalize millions of undocumented migrants in the United States could backfire by slashing the amount of money they send home, Mexican economists warn.....The argument goes like this: Mexicans who have permission to work in the United States will want to bring their families north to live with them, eliminating the main reason they send money home. That would hurt Mexican businesses that have come to depend on the money sent down from the United States. Miguel Cervantes Jimenez, an economist at Mexico's National Autonomous University, said remittances could drop by as much as 40 percent. He based his calculation in part on the situation in Turkey, where he said half the remittances disappeared in 2001, the year after Germany - a main destination for Turkish migrants - passed a broad legalization law. “If I already have my family with me, I no longer have much reason to send money back home”....In 2005, migrants in the United States sent home $39 billion. About half went to Mexico, where remittances are the second-largest source of foreign income, after oil sales. In El Salvador and Guatemala, remittances represent the largest source of foreign revenue.

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

So besides the USA supporting Mexico with billions of dollars in free military and food aid, we also support their economy with billions of dollars in illegal immigrant money sent to Mexico?

Damn, we might as well ANNEX Mexico, since we basically support the country from top to bottom, AND their own people hate it there so much they are risking death to illegally enter our country.

Habanero:

For the middle class and wealthy people who actually like living in Mexico, how do they view this situation?

Do they feel like, "Good riddance to them", much like Fidel Castro did during the Cuban "boat lift" back in the early 80's?

[Habanero]

Here are some more statisitcs on the issue,,,,,

Country or region of birth of illegal immigrants in the U.S.,
March 2004
•MEXICO 57% •
OTHER LATIN AMERICA 24%
• ALL OTHER 19%

Their numbers are growing ...
• 2005 -- 6.3 million = Mexican immigrants living in the U.S.

PROFILE OF IMMIGRATION
1 in 10 Proportion of Mexicans born in Mexico who now reside in the U.S.

80% to 85% of new immigrants from Mexico lack legal documentation

$9 Median hourly wage of Mexican-born workers in the U.S. in 2004

$1.86 (21 pesos) Median hourly wage in Mexico in 2004

$450 billion Estimated combined annual gross income of all U.S. workers born in Latin America, of both legal and illegal immigration status, according to a 2004 report*

93% of that $450 billion was spent in the U.S.*
*From the Inter-American Development Bank

Sources: Pew Hispanic Center; National Immigration Law Center; National Conference of State Legislatures; INEGI (Instituto Nacional de Estad.stica, Geograf.a e Inform.tica)
Source = Time Mag: February 6, 2006 Vol. 167 No. 6

[Habanero]

Crackdown or welcome for illegal immigrants?
Major provisions of HR 4437, which the House of Representatives passed in December:

Make illegal presence in the U.S. a felony.

Boost surveillance at the border.

Stiffen penalties for immigrant smuggling.

Construct 700 miles of fence along the Mexican border.

Require employers to verify worker immigration status.

Increase criminal penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Crack down on illegal immigrants who are members of gangs.

Major provisions of the bill under most active Senate consideration:

Illegal immigrants who have been in the country at least five years would receive a renewable work visa if they pay a $2,000 penalty and all back taxes, pass a criminal background check and learn English. They would be granted a chance to receive a green card, and eventual citizenship, if they stay employed and avoid major legal problems.

Illegal immigrants in the country less than five years but more than two years would have to report to a port of entry along the border to apply for one of the 450,000 green cards that will be available each year.

Illegal immigrants in the country for two years or less would be required to return to their native countries.

Up to 325,000 guest workers would be allowed in the country each year if employers are unable to fill jobs with American citizens or permanent residents.

Up to 1.5 million agricultural workers now in the United States illegally would be granted legal status and a path to citizenship over a five-year period.

The Border Patrol would be authorized to expand by 12,500 officers over a five-year period.

Tamper-proof identification cards would be required of all job seekers.

[Habanero]

So besides the USA supporting Mexico with billions of dollars in free military and food aid, we also support their economy with billions of dollars in illegal immigrant money sent to Mexico?

Damn, we might as well ANNEX Mexico, since we basically support the country from top to bottom, AND their own people hate it there so much they are risking death to illegally enter our country.

Habanero:

For the middle class and wealthy people who actually like living in Mexico, how do they view this situation?

Do they feel like, "Good riddance to them", much like Fidel Castro did during the Cuban "boat lift" back in the early 80's?

I think we unofficially annexed Mexico a while back, remember NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. I think affluent mexican nationals are probably concerned about maintaining the best possible relationship w/ the US and see illegal immigration more like a social disease -- like a bad case of the crabs gone wild. Their biggest concern is still the drug cartels, which can de-stabalize the country without the aid of the US via acts of terrorism, kidnappings, corrutption, etc... I don't think anyone who knows anything about this issue would disagree that the illegal immigration issue has gotten out of control and that the mexican border (or lack thereof) is the biggest threat to US national security.

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

93% of that $450 billion was spent in the U.S.*
*From the Inter-American Development Bank



Habanero, someone had to be smoking crack the day this "fact" was made.......remitting American money to Mexico and other Latin American countries is the biggest source of income for some of those countries.

So, the Inter-American Development Bank says that, on average, illegal immigrant workers in the USA returned only 7% of their income to their families in their home countries?

I'm sorry, but I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT SO-CALLED FACT from the Inter-American Development Bank.

[STORM SHADOW]

Heddo! yes... I'm still around. I watched the latest stats on cost of illegal immigration to the tax payer.. OMG! What's even worse than that... of the illegal immigrants caught last year... 150,000... yes thousand were NOT Mexican but from other countries and they were released on the spot with a 'Notice to Appear in Court' and not one of them appeared. That scared me enough to say "mobilize the Nat'l Guard to the border".

Concerning illegals coming into the country and working the crops etc for lower wages, it does kill our economy and cost jobs. Here's how it works:

If the farmer ranchers can't hire illegals, then companies have to be contacted, engineers hired, drawings made of great machinery to be made, these blue prints sent to manufacturers to build this equipment, equipment sent to the market, farmer/rancher buys it, heavy equipment skilled people maintain it, this equipment sold to other countries, users suggest improvements to the equipment, this goes to the engineers, next generation equipment goes out, it goes on. All the mean time, highly skilled well payed people pay taxes on this economic circle.

This was one of the few causes of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, uncontrolled immigration that put a strain on Gov't resources and lowered the wages of Romans because these immigrants would work for less. What's happening in America is not new!

Another of the causes of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was the uncontrolled immigrants were given rights and able to vote even though they were not Romanized. This was so that power seeking people can get into office or pass legislation that was NOT in Rome's interest. This has a broad disasterous impact on a Country! Just as in Rome, UNcontrolled immigration causes a political demographic shift that is not in America's interest. Politicians trying to get into office seize on this and use it to their advantage. Because of this uncontrolled immigration, these mass of people are NOT Americanized, they are not absorbed into our culture, they have no clue of the Founding Principles of America and what we fled and built to stay free. These people that are fleeing for their various reasons tend to vote leaning toward the system they fled from! Just like Rome, America will cease to be America as we know it.

I've been watching for the past couple of months mexicans illegal and legal in the streets enmass protesting and demanding their rights but waving the Mexican Flag. Whatever message they wanted me to recieve was lost in the fact that they were not waving the American Flag. Proof that they are not Americanized, proof that they will enmass change our system and our way of life as we know it. I don't buy into the "this is a land of immigrants" bullshit either when they speak it or even when the President says it because really, all Countries around the world are "the land of immigrants". So really the question is "do we stand by our system or let immigration turn us into a new country?".

When my great Grandparents fled Italy because of discrimination and came to America, they banned the Italian language from their house hold and insisted the children only speak the native tongue, English. That's respect! That's loyalty! Italy did nothing good for them, there was no way they were going to show Italy any identification. Why would Mexicans leaving a country that has done nothing for them wave the Mexican Flag when it's the United States that is helping them fullfill a dream?

STORM SHADOW

[Big A]

Heddo! yes... I'm still around. I watched the latest stats on cost of illegal immigration to the tax payer.. OMG! What's even worse than that... of the illegal immigrants caught last year... 150,000... yes thousand were NOT Mexican but from other countries and they were released on the spot with a 'Notice to Appear in Court' and not one of them appeared. That scared me enough to say "mobilize the Nat'l Guard to the border".

Concerning illegals coming into the country and working the crops etc for lower wages, it does kill our economy and cost jobs. Here's how it works:

If the farmer ranchers can't hire illegals, then companies have to be contacted, engineers hired, drawings made of great machinery to be made, these blue prints sent to manufacturers to build this equipment, equipment sent to the market, farmer/rancher buys it, heavy equipment skilled people maintain it, this equipment sold to other countries, users suggest improvements to the equipment, this goes to the engineers, next generation equipment goes out, it goes on. All the mean time, highly skilled well payed people pay taxes on this economic circle.

This was one of the few causes of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, uncontrolled immigration that put a strain on Gov't resources and lowered the wages of Romans because these immigrants would work for less. What's happening in America is not new!

Another of the causes of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was the uncontrolled immigrants were given rights and able to vote even though they were not Romanized. This was so that power seeking people can get into office or pass legislation that was NOT in Rome's interest. This has a broad disasterous impact on a Country! Just as in Rome, UNcontrolled immigration causes a political demographic shift that is not in America's interest. Politicians trying to get into office seize on this and use it to their advantage. Because of this uncontrolled immigration, these mass of people are NOT Americanized, they are not absorbed into our culture, they have no clue of the Founding Principles of America and what we fled and built to stay free. These people that are fleeing for their various reasons tend to vote leaning toward the system they fled from! Just like Rome, America will cease to be America as we know it.

I've been watching for the past couple of months mexicans illegal and legal in the streets enmass protesting and demanding their rights but waving the Mexican Flag. Whatever message they wanted me to recieve was lost in the fact that they were not waving the American Flag. Proof that they are not Americanized, proof that they will enmass change our system and our way of life as we know it. I don't buy into the "this is a land of immigrants" bullshit either when they speak it or even when the President says it because really, all Countries around the world are "the land of immigrants". So really the question is "do we stand by our system or let immigration turn us into a new country?".

When my great Grandparents fled Italy because of discrimination and came to America, they banned the Italian language from their house hold and insisted the children only speak the native tongue, English. That's respect! That's loyalty! Italy did nothing good for them, there was no way they were going to show Italy any identification. Why would Mexicans leaving a country that has done nothing for them wave the Mexican Flag when it's the United States that is helping them fullfill a dream?

STORM SHADOW

I agree 100% with what you said. It's the exact same problem here in Australia as well.

[STORM SHADOW]

I agree 100% with what you said. It's the exact same problem here in Australia as well.


Yes Big A.. I've been watching tv at the Muslim riots burning Aussie cars and stuff like they did in France... but I noticed a difference between France and USA with the problem... the Aussies fought back in the streets hard... they probably didn't expect a fight because USA and France are so god damn politically correct lol

STORM SHADOW

[BigBoyJ]

You know what I think's funny? I was watching tv and Mexico's President was speaking. Mexican's in America were chearing him on because of his pro "Mexican coming to America" stance. Now the funny thing that all the damn Mexicans don't realize is that President Fox DOESN'T WANT their sorry asses in Mexico, that's why he's pushing for them to be allowed to come here. He's dumping his trash on us, and the Mexicans don't even realize THEY'RE THE TRASH. Why don't these fuckin' roaches work on fixing their own country instead of ruining ours. REVOLT AGAINST YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT MEXICO, DON'T COME TO AMERICA, WE DON'T WANT YOU!!

[STORM SHADOW]

You know what I think's funny? I was watching tv and Mexico's President was speaking. Mexican's in America were chearing him on because of his pro "Mexican coming to America" stance. Now the funny thing that all the damn Mexicans don't realize is that President Fox DOESN'T WANT their sorry asses in Mexico, that's why he's pushing for them to be allowed to come here. He's dumping his trash on us, and the Mexicans don't even realize THEY'RE THE TRASH. Why don't these fuckin' roaches work on fixing own country instead of ruining ours. REVOLT AGAINST YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT MEXICO, DON'T COME TO AMERICA, WE DON'T WANT YOU!!


I said this before but not on this board... Mexico has waaaaaaaaay toooo many problems to be our neighbor. I'm an Imperialist anyway and not ashamed of it... I'm all for militarily taking over Mexico and seperating it into more states... it's way to corrupt to be near our border. Is the USA corrupt? well hell yes! but we have Discretion! We are discrete about our corruption. The Mafia set a standard on being corrupt... ya just can't go out in the streets and beat the shit out of everybody to get what you want.. you have to use discretion... something Mexican Gov't doesn't have...no class man...no class.

STORM SHADOW

[BigBoyJ]

How is it our brains are wired so similarly? Or is it that we are simply so brilliant that the truth is more apparent to us than the lesser mortals?:D

[STORM SHADOW]

How is it our brains are wired so similarly? Or is it that we are simply so brilliant that the truth is more apparent to us than the lesser mortals?:D

You and I are for sure Immortal!!!!!!! my long lost brother!

[Kahn]

The main argument from ILLEGAL immigrants and their supporters is that they should be given legal status,



Its a damn shame that you get no arguement when your ass is ILLEGAL.

[Kahn]

When my great Grandparents fled Italy because of discrimination and came to America, they banned the Italian language from their house hold and insisted the children only speak the native tongue, English. That's respect! That's loyalty! Italy did nothing good for them, there was no way they were going to show Italy any identification. Why would Mexicans leaving a country that has done nothing for them wave the Mexican Flag when it's the United States that is helping them fullfill a dream?
STORM SHADOW

I believe the word is Integrity. It is a problem with our youth. They think if they act like asshole kids they are welcome here. The world needs an ass whipping. Not me though, I need my as kicked. But if it happens it'll just make me meaner.

[badman]

Off topic, but I have a question...

I have applied for a VISA to the United States back in 1999 and was denied. So I wanted to know if I should be honest when filling out part of the form, which states have you been denied for a VISA. It was six years ago and I am not sure if I should be truthful. Or say no I haven't been denied.... Would any of you know if the computers would still have that information back from 1999 by any chance? I applied for B - 2 VISA and got denied, because I didn't show my relation to Germany. Haven't been to the USA, since that day... Would that deny still be on file?
If anyone knows where it is asked in the form could you let me know please? I really appreciate any of your guys help...

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

The bottom line:

Mexico is dumping it's unwanted poor on us just like Castro did in the
early 80's.....Furthermore, illegal immigrants ARE felons in Mexico, yet they bitch and moan about their own people getting such a label here.

And if you go to Mexico, you'll find much more blatant, accepted rascism by the Mexican people against their Native Indians, then you will find amongst whites who don't want Mexicans (illegal or legal) here.

Most importantly, illegal immigrants cost our Social Services and overall infrastructure a great deal more money than what they put into the economy.

Remember this people.....washing dishes, cleaning toilets and mowing lawns for a few bucks less an hour than what an American citizen would do it for does not make up for the astronomical increase in cost of funding education, police/fire services, welfare, etc. in our country that illegal immigrants create. And everytime you pay your property taxes, you also feel the burden that the cost of illegal immigration has on our public education system.

And if you want to stop illegal immigration, don't provide them job opportunities in the first place: get off your ass and mow your own lawn and clean your own damn toilet. It's your own house for God's sake, show some pride!!!

[leapfrog]

the US wouldn't give a shit if they were in this country, if they could colateralize them with a social security number.son of SATAN(aka bush jr- working directly for SATAN bush sr) is just pissed because they don't pay taxes and they send thier money home.it's like the drug war,just another gov't program to bleed the money from the tax payers on something they know they can't stop. summed up, more political bullshit!!!

leap

[ANAL_ASSASSIN_aka_FATNICK]

the US wouldn't give a shit if they were in this country, if they could colateralize them with a social security number.son of SATAN(aka bush jr- working directly for SATAN bush sr) is just pissed because they don't pay taxes and they send thier money home.it's like the drug war,just another gov't program to bleed the money from the tax payers on something they know they can't stop. summed up, more political bullshit!!!

leap

Even if every illegal AND legal immigrant kept their money in the US economy, it still would not be enough to counter-balance the negative economic impact created by illegal immigration.

That's not an opinion, but fact.

ANAL ASSASSIN