DEMOCRATES JUST DONT GET IT

[Vander_V]

The current political debate about the NIE and it's supposed comment (it doesn't exist) that the war in Iraq is making the US less secure is pure political BS and shows the Democrates are willing to sell their soul and the country out for nothing more than political power. I've read the NIE and it does not say that!!! It addresses the worldwide growth of Islamic terrorism. The question has to be asked and the President already addressed it...The US was attacked on numerous occassions before Iraq and the US was hesitant to go on the offensive. Pres Clinton said he attacked a Al-Quida camp in retaliation. Blowing up an abandoned camp with tents and huts is not a tactical victory. In fact Al-Quida abandoned the camp. Go back to Somalia, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, the first World Trade Center attack, the embassey attacks in Africa, and 9/11 ALL OCCURRED before Iraq. Add Madrid, London, Ba li, and other places around the world and it shows the Islamist are attacking the Western World not just the US. The Islamists and Bin Ladin have been trying for years to edge us into a conflict. 9/11 pushed us over the edge and rightly so. Now we are in a fight unlike anything this country has ever been in. It is a fight WE MUST WIN. It is a multi-theater conflict. It involves Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Hizballah, Danish cartoons, and the Pope's comments. It envolves the West against radical Islam. Yet, the Democrates don't get it. They can't comprehend the strategic war before us.

By the way this was written by my Uncle who works in the Pentagon.

[STORM SHADOW]

Who knows? Maybe the Pope was trying to prove a point then step back and watch the action and then come out to say he was sorry muslims were offended. Perhaps he just wanted to show the world that just a few words will push these 'peaceful' muslims to start murdering people, fire bombing Christian Chruches, murdering defenseless nuns, drive by's at Churches etc.

Nobody is within their right to harm others over words... Muslims will in a sec.

[sahar mohammed]

Mr.Vander_V and Mr STORM SHADOW

If you love some one so much even more than any thing in the whole world ..
and this person is being insulted all the time .. how would you feel ,angry????
maybe if you really love this person .

and would you express this anger ???
sure it's better to act positive and express your opinion freely than to stay at home and don't do any thing at all

every one know that for every action there is a reaction ...
and the muslims have the right to express the pain and anger they're feeling like any one else in the whole world ...

I think that the pop's job is to decrease the fights between religions not to increase them .. He need to learn alot more about being a pope .
He need to learn that we love prophet muhammed more than our parents ,our family and even our selfs .. and it's not acceptable to insult the prophet muhammed or any other prophet or any holy symbol of any religion

If you have the right to criticize any one, you don't have the right to insult any one
and what he said is obviously an insult ..

[STORM SHADOW]

Well that's your way of looking at it. But we have laws in this world and no matter how pissed you get you can't resort to murder and if you do you're a tard and a primitive. If this is how the muslims are going to conduct themselves then they will never win the respect of people across the planet.

Second the Pope can say whatever he wants about the Muslims since Christians believe your religion is in defiance of the one and only true God and Himself in the flesh as God under the name of Jesus. So really, to us, your worship of Alla... hmmm may as well worship a rock or stone, it's just as powerful.

And Mohamad? he was a pedophile, history proves it.

[sahar mohammed]

Well that's your way of looking at it. But we have laws in this world and no matter how pissed you get you can't resort to murder and if you do you're a tard and a primitive. If this is how the muslims are going to conduct themselves then they will never win the respect of people across the planet.

Second the Pope can say whatever he wants about the Muslims since Christians believe your religion is in defiance of the one and only true God and Himself in the flesh as God under the name of Jesus. So really, to us, your worship of Alla... hmmm may as well worship a rock or stone, it's just as powerful.

And Mohamad? he was a pedophile, history proves it.

Mr storm shadow...
in the first part I agree with you 100% ...no matter how angry you are doesn't mean you can act as a savage ..
teachings of muslim . christian , and jewish religion aganist killing any citizen no matter why
there is alot of verses in Quran says that like
(If a man kills a believer intentionally,his recompense is hell.......)
and many others

(and about the part that muslims won't win the world respect )..
.they already won the world respect and the best prove for that is when the pope apologized to muslims for what he has done and said in front of the whole world that he respect islam and muslims .. sure he wasn't have to do that but it's a good thing that he would apologize when he find out that he was wrong ...

and if you don't or do respect islam that's would not make any difference to islam or muslims ....simply because that's how the world is ..always there is different point of views on the one thing..
many people would respect some thing and many others would not respect it although it is the same thing !
the question is how would you know the right side from the wrong one ????
and another question please .. don't you think that islam win enough respect in the world as it become the first religion that huge number of people enter it every day ???.

about (your allah hmmm may as well worship a rock or stone) well .the same way you look to my religion is the same way we and all
non christian look to yours

finally (And Mohamad? he was a pedophile, history proves it) I don't know who are you trying to lie to ???? obviously not me .. you are not the only one who can read history .I read history too and in two languages .. I just cannot imagin how low some christians or jewish (not talking about you ) can get to keep people away from knowing the true islam and the greatness of the prophet muhammed pbuh
I'm sorry to tell you that you are one of those who were deceived from knowing the true religion .. your informations about islam not true at all
by the way .. you would notice that I never call you names back .. have you ever think why I'm not ,and why I still respect you although you are not respecting me ????

[STORM SHADOW]

Mr storm shadow...
in the first part I agree with you 100% ...no matter how angry you are doesn't mean you can act as a savage ..
teachings of muslim . christian , and jewish religion aganist killing any citizen no matter why
there is alot of verses in Quran says that like
(If a man kills a believer intentionally,his recompense is hell.......)
and many others

(and about the part that muslims won't win the world respect )..
.they already won the world respect and the best prove for that is when the pope apologized to muslims for what he has done and said in front of the whole world that he respect islam and muslims .. sure he wasn't have to do that but it's a good thing that he would apologize when he find out that he was wrong ...

and if you don't or do respect islam that's would not make any difference to islam or muslims ....simply because that's how the world is ..always there is different point of views on the one thing..
many people would respect some thing and many others would not respect it although it is the same thing !
the question is how would you know the right side from the wrong one ????
and another question please .. don't you think that islam win enough respect in the world as it become the first religion that huge number of people enter it every day ???.

about (your allah hmmm may as well worship a rock or stone) well .the same way you look to my religion is the same way we and all
non christian look to yours

finally (And Mohamad? he was a pedophile, history proves it) I don't know who are you trying to lie to ???? obviously not me .. you are not the only one who can read history .I read history too and in two languages .. I just cannot imagin how low some christians or jewish (not talking about you ) can get to keep people away from knowing the true islam and the greatness of the prophet muhammed pbuh
I'm sorry to tell you that you are one of those who were deceived from knowing the true religion .. your informations about islam not true at all
by the way .. you would notice that I never call you names back .. have you ever think why I'm not ,and why I still respect you although you are not respecting me ????

Notice in the first part you say "(If a man kills a believer intentionally,his recompense is hell.......)" so it's ok to MURDER non believers in your fake religion.

The Pope didn't really appologize... he was just showing everybody what a few word will get Muslims to do.

And your prophet... yes.. he was a pedo.. he married a 12 yr old girl and did little boys. It was common actually.

[sahar mohammed]

Notice in the first part you say "(If a man kills a believer intentionally,his recompense is hell.......)" so it's ok to MURDER non believers in your fake religion.

The Pope didn't really appologize... he was just showing everybody what a few word will get Muslims to do.

And your prophet... yes.. he was a pedo.. he married a 12 yr old girl and did little boys. It was common actually.

you haven't replay any of my Questions but it's ok if you don't want to

in the first part .. I said (there is alot of verses in Quran say that)
I don't know if you didn't see those words or ignored it or you just read what you want to read
and what I meant is that there is lots of verses warning people from killing any person , and I just mentioned one verse because I know that you won't read my reply if it is so long so I tried to make it as short as possible
that's why I haven't mention the rest of verses .


there is verses talked about killing a believer and who would do that then he made a great sin
and there is another verses talked about killing any person and it's also a great sin
and there is verese talked about killing any soul (to contain every soul exist)
and it's also a sin and who would do that will be punished in hell

but I must tell you I'm sorry that I've only mentioned one verse and didn't write any thing about the other verses , it's my fault that I gave you incomplete information (my fault )

(and about the pope was just showing everybody what a few word will get Muslims to do.)
it's just like if you were saying that the pope had alot of free time and nothing to do so he decided to get the world attention !

are you saying that the pope has nothing elso to do but making fights ???? you made him sounds like he was a chair sitting in another chair and got nothing to do or say so he wanted to do some thing and where he could find better target than the muslims ???? he could not dare to say any thing bad about the jewish(for an example) because of the political benefits that gather between him and the jewish .. although of the arguments between christian and jewish religion the pope would not want to lose the political relation because of religion... but when it comes to muslims which then that's ok to say any thing about them !!!!!

about ( he married a 12 yr old girl ) he didn't married her till she was 15 yr old
and she was very happy with him and that was very normal thing in mecca

I've seen some women before who marrid young (in 15, 16 17 ,18, 19 ,20 )yrs old and they were so happy with their husbands .

by the way ...it's not only common in mecca but it 's also common in many places in the whole world even in america as I have seen many of these stories in t v and in the net about american women who married 14,15 and 16 yrs old ..so what ???

[STORM SHADOW]

you haven't replay any of my Questions but it's ok if you don't want to

in the first part .. I said (there is alot of verses in Quran say that)
I don't know if you didn't see those words or ignored it or you just read what you want to read
and what I meant is that there is lots of verses warning people from killing any person , and I just mentioned one verse because I know that you won't read my reply if it is so long so I tried to make it as short as possible
that's why I haven't mention the rest of verses .


there is verses talked about killing a believer and who would do that then he made a great sin
and there is another verses talked about killing any person and it's also a great sin
and there is verese talked about killing any soul (to contain every soul exist)
and it's also a sin and who would do that will be punished in hell

but I must tell you I'm sorry that I've only mentioned one verse and didn't write any thing about the other verses , it's my fault that I gave you incomplete information (my fault )

(and about the pope was just showing everybody what a few word will get Muslims to do.)
it's just like if you were saying that the pope had alot of free time and nothing to do so he decided to get the world attention !

are you saying that the pope has nothing elso to do but making fights ???? you made him sounds like he was a chair sitting in another chair and got nothing to do or say so he wanted to do some thing and where he could find better target than the muslims ???? he could not dare to say any thing bad about the jewish(for an example) because of the political benefits that gather between him and the jewish .. although of the arguments between christian and jewish religion the pope would not want to lose the political relation because of religion... but when it comes to muslims which then that's ok to say any thing about them !!!!!

about ( he married a 12 yr old girl ) he didn't married her till she was 15 yr old
and she was very happy with him and that was very normal thing in mecca

I've seen some women before who marrid young (in 15, 16 17 ,18, 19 ,20 )yrs old and they were so happy with their husbands .

by the way ...it's not only common in mecca but it 's also common in many places in the whole world even in america as I have seen many of these stories in t v and in the net about american women who married 14,15 and 16 yrs old ..so what ???

Actually it's not common in America for somebody so old to marry a girl under the age of consent esp a 12 yr old like Mohammad did.

[sahar mohammed]

Actually it's not common in America for somebody so old to marry a girl under the age of consent esp a 12 yr old like Mohammad did.

well , I don't think that the age difference is a problem .. cause we see couples every where get married all the time and there is a big different between them in the age but that never seemed to be a problem .
for an example the famous couple Tom Cruise and Katie .

they seem to be so happy together and every one is happy with these couple although the age difference betwen them is 24 years, but I never heard any one say how can tom crusie do that ?? or he is too old for her .. or she is in the same age of his daughter

I never heard that and every one is waiting for their marriage ... so what is the problem ???
and if you think that it's not common in america then I think that the american sites and the american t.v are saying fake stories ( which I don't believe they do )

by the way .there is some thing I wanted to ask you along time ago
why do you hate muslims ??

and please don't tell me because they are terrorists or they are evil because you seem to be a wise person which won't judge a billion and half billion muslims in the whole world for the crimes of few muslims like bin laden (which by the way muslims too see what bin laden have done as a great sin and a terrible crime )
terrorism belong to no religion MR storm

[STORM SHADOW]

well , I don't think that the age difference is a problem .. cause we see couples every where get married all the time and there is a big different between them in the age but that never seemed to be a problem .
for an example the famous couple Tom Cruise and Katie .

they seem to be so happy together and every one is happy with these couple although the age difference betwen them is 24 years, but I never heard any one say how can tom crusie do that ?? or he is too old for her .. or she is in the same age of his daughter

I never heard that and every one is waiting for their marriage ... so what is the problem ???
and if you think that it's not common in america then I think that the american sites and the american t.v are saying fake stories ( which I don't believe they do )

by the way .there is some thing I wanted to ask you along time ago
why do you hate muslims ??

and please don't tell me because they are terrorists or they are evil because you seem to be a wise person which won't judge a billion and half billion muslims in the whole world for the crimes of few muslims like bin laden (which by the way muslims too see what bin laden have done as a great sin and a terrible crime )
terrorism belong to no religion MR storm

You're still wrong. Age does make a difference when the child in America is under the age of consent. Being 30 and having sex with a 12 year old? that's just freaking sick! I think Mohammad was older than that when he married a 12 yr old. It's just wrong.

Why do I hate Muslims... hmmm this would be both Biblical and Historical. God did state the tribes of Israel and that which brought about Islam would be in constant conflict 'til the end times. I happen to be on the side of Israel for one... two ... your tribe started the Crusades by raping and murdering the innocent civilians in villages for not being 'Believers' in Europe.

It's never stopped... we want it over... but your tribe persisits! It's like we are still in the 7 century. Too many (not all), in your tribe believe that all competing religions must perish by the sword. This lopping off the head shit is too primitive to be in such a small world. The mid east will come into the 21st century or perish by fire... you know I'm right. Whether it be wrong or right, the Western Civilization which is mostly Christian will sooner or later get tired of this game and turn up the temp of the violence to such a level that it cannot be matched in history and millions will die... your millions... right or wrong. Your lands will accept Capitalist Western Civ or perish... it's in the cards. All civilization that met Western died off or was absorbed... so shall yours... right or wrong. Even the Chinese have bent and they are probably the second greatest power on the planet.... but they bent in favor of Capitalism.

What's making this worse is the moderate in your tribe are not fighting the extremists! Don't think I don't see the historical signifcance of this... we went through it too historically... the Theocrats ruled over us... 100's of thousands died because of them... we kicked them out of Gov't at the Founding of the USA... hell the moderates here could see what the Theocrats were doing in the colonies and was scared this was going to be another dark ages Europe... witch burnings and what not... it's over! We won't be ruled by a Theocratic minority... we individually will decide our destiny and our beliefs... it won't be dictated to us. Do yourselves a favor... get rid of them and we'll call it quits and live in peace.

[STORM SHADOW]

Let me add to this my friend... Biblically... we are brothers. We are both decendants of Adam and Eve (though I do believe there was a tribe before that but it has nothing to do with us really and our salvation). What we have to ask is.. are we going to let the seed of Abraham decide our destiny or are we all going to say (like we say in America), your religion is your personal business and not Government's?

All this talk of wiping out Israel is really starting to piss us off and when it comes down to it, most of us will stand in front of Israel and protect her. Not because Israel is the chosen people, not because they are the holy people, not because they are better than anybody... hell we know Israel pulls some sneaky things and many of them don't even believe in God... It's because they are surrounded by people that hate Israel... that's all!!!!! That's the only reason. Throw in the Germanic/Celtic tribe's history of our problems with muslim invasions into Europe and the non stop attacks on Western Civilization even up to present... it's no wonder we are so pissed at the tribes of Islam!

You made a great point... anybody who hates Muslims because they think they are all terrorists is a phony... a person led by news on tv with no educational backround... not all terrorists are Muslim... it's just that Muslim terrorists are on a big scale and are doing the most damage on civilian targets. When they stop.... hell the next terrorists talked about on tv will probably be some other tribe not religious at all that is pissed off at Western Civilization for changing their culture and country to be more Western.

Your tribe made violent religeous incursions into the Western World... that's a fact... the Western World (not ruled by religion) made business incursions into the Muslim world... you and I both know it's not about oil... we don't want to steal anybody's oil and you know that. It's about business... your tribe made it religious. Don't think for a second that I don't know how you feel... I really do! I sit here and imagine a tribe with it's own culture that's been there for thousands of years and along come these business people that want to do business in your area... in doing business you all know it's going to mean change, a change to Capitalist ways. What happens when Capitalism takes over an area? The culture changes forever. Old ways are abandoned. In your eyes you're free, but Capitalism sees you as chained and frees you in it's own way. Next thing you know the Armies come, women have rights and treat their husbands different, husbands arrested for trying to hold on to the old ways, children not respecting parents, crime goes up drastically, prisons fill up, drug trade florishes, and the big one hits, Capitalism even has a way to kill of gods, yes even your god. The TRUTH, all TRUTHS become shady, shadowy, nobody really knows the TRUTH about anything, Gov't leaders become politicians instead of leaders and parties form both lieing about the other and the voters if they even care anymore have to wade through the lies to decide the lesser of two evils. Children will walk into schools and start shooting teachers (the most respected people of any society), shooting other students, sports becomes a major thing in the new society and they make more money than the people that are really important and necessary in a healthy society, they rape or murder women and get away with it because they can afford the best lawyer in the land and may be able to claim some stupid prejudices are in the conspiracy against them where none exist.

Through all of this one realizes one is in the midst of the 4th Roman Empire. Corruption spreads like wild fire in Capitalism... why? because it's addicting. All one has left is their own right to believe in God because all else is owned by Capitalism, it can take away one's land too. There is no power against it. When it comes down to it... one will either be absorbed or perish. So my friend... I do know where you are coming from. You're going to ask "why do we put up with such things in Western World... well I named only the bad stuff... it has it's good side too... I have a house, a yard, car, night clubs, etc all which could be taken away if I don't play the game... I have love, and I have Jesus, I have a wife. As long as I play the game, nobody will interfere with it.

Where does President Bush fit in all of this? Don't for a second think he's evil, he's not. He took an oath of office to protect this Nation and all of it's interestes and allies, he's doing his job and he has no choice in this matter. Even if a Democrat President were in charge at this time, he/she would have done the samething even if the democrats on tv say they wouldn't... it's politics that's all. Capitalism is a wind, a force which cannot be seen but more powerful than anything on earth. We know it's there, all we can do is brace ourselves and work with it.... biblically, Capitalism will one day perish itself because One more powerful than anything will change everything. Until then, stop taking it out on Americans and Europe. Fortune 100 companies are going to spread their hand through every part of the earth and bring their armies with them if they have too. It's all about business, that's all. Our Gov't doesn't want your land or it's oil and riches, it could care less. Companies want your business without violence. When that voilence hits Western interests, the armies will come. Don't for a sec think the armies can be stopped because as the opponents of our armies get more ruthless so do our armies of the world.

Let's pose for a second what would happen if your soldiers hit the USA with a suit case nuke and took out New York, a mid eastern country will probably be vaporized minutes later in retaliation... the whole country. See what I mean? it's not worth it for your tribe or mine. This violence has to stop before it escalates to the next level... you seem to be a moderate... the moderates in your tribe need to stop (with violence if necessary) the extremists because those extremists are going to get your people killed in historical numbers.

Take this message to your tribe and spread it 'cause I speak (I believe) for everybody here... I may be Christian but I don't want to change your religion, none of us do.. we don't care what religion you are, that's your business... that's private to you. All the people of your tribes best thing to do now is to get in Gov't and change your Gov't from within and not fight us. Get in there and force a Democratic Republic that wants peace with the world... let there be a Constitution, voting, rights for everybody. Turn away from military interests and use the riches of the Country to make it better than anybody else's. Make it a place where all people of the world would want to come too and see the magnificance of it.

It pisses me off that you can come to my Country and enjoy it and tour it but I can't come to yours. My Country is historically new to the world... your's is rich in history, very old..... ancient history all around you. The violence has to stop and it stops by dropping your weapons and threats of violence. Picture for a second this concept... 3 American cops are talking to a guy on the street. The cops have their guns drawn out and so does the guy they are talking too. What's the most important thing happening at that very moment? It's not whether the man is right or wrong... it's all about the gun... the cops can talk later with the man about right and wrong, but at that very moment all that matters is the threat of violence and as long as that threat of violence exists, the man (right or wrong), most likely will die in the exchange all because of the threat. Were the cops wrong for killing him when the man with the gun might be right? nooooo the cops are just doing their job, getting rid of the 'Threat'... that's all they are there for in that very second. Had the man dropped the gun and got rid of the threat, the cops and the man could have talked about what was bothering him... the cops do care about him, but situation dictates course of action.... to talk, the threat of violence cannot exist.

At this very moment, Korea and Iran have a threat of violence... this will play out... and the cops in this instance are 'the armies'. Iran and or Korea will lose in the exchange.... at this very moment it doesn't matter whether Korea or Iran is in the right... the threat is there and will be dealt with first from our perspective. Get rid of the threat, then talk.

Get rid of the threat, then talk... remember that.

[pete999]

what a load of crap...


i hope that soon every country has a massive nuclear arsenal...


there can be no truth where there is no equality...

[littlemack]

sahar mohammed, I agree that everyone has a right to their own religious beliefs and I do not look down on you or anyone else for this...but...I have to ask one question.

Just what in the hell did the American People do to your people that would cause them become terrorists and attack our country in the first place? In my eyes, your people started this war, not us. I'm sick and damn tired of hearing how your people do not agree with the way Westerners live. Who cares. Why do you care? Why do your people care? We are on the opposite side of the world from you! Americans do not all hate your people either Sahar. But we will not stand for terrorism. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should have just left the damn middle east alone and let you guys all kill each other. You have been fighting amongst yourselves for centuries. Your world is as IMPERFECT as ours. Probably even more so!

And one more thing I want to get off of my chest. As Americans, we are SO bothered by all of the US soldiers who are dying everyday. Do you think we are the only casualties in this war? Look at how many Iraqi's are dying everyday. Not by us either! By their own people! Kidnappings, beheadings, torturing, suffering. If anything, we've just escalated the rate at which these people are killing themselves. Did you guys see the Iraqi Surgeon on TV last night? He is now treating 200 people per day. Not Americans either. All Iraqi's!
He can't keep up with it! All the Iraqi doctors are leaving too! They can't keep up with it.
Who's really the cause of all the trouble and chaos? American's? We are not the cause. Your people would be killing each other regardless. Now they're just killing each other faster.

[sahar mohammed]

I think your correct bro, and I see your point. You've picked the wrong forum to get your point across. Most of these guys here are in College or in thier 20's The only info they have on other cultures is what they see on the nightly news. If you young guys are sooo for the War in Iraq, then get your ass over there and put your ass on the line for what you believe. I was in Kuwait and did my time. But you young guys with your "lets kick ass and ask questions later" attitude have no clue who or what your dealing with. This isn't a Democrat/Republican debate this isn't a war on Terror. This is a conflict of beliefs. And you can't put a weapon to a man's head to change those beliefs.

Actually I'm a sis not a bro .And I haven't picked the wrong forum but I have picked the wrong minds to talk to ..I thought we can have an open minded discussion but it seems that no one here is ready to accept the other opinion with an open heart or even give the other the chance to say his point of view ...

[Big A]

Actually I'm a sis not a bro .And I haven't picked the wrong forum but I have picked the wrong minds to talk to ..I thought we can have an open minded discussion but it seems that no one here is ready to accept the other opinion with an open heart or even give the other the chance to say his point of view ...

Your posts are welcome here. You can definetely have an open minded discussion. Your posts were not edited, were they? That is because you can freely speak your mind.

[STORM SHADOW]

I think your correct bro, and I see your point. You've picked the wrong forum to get your point across. Most of these guys here are in College or in thier 20's The only info they have on other cultures is what they see on the nightly news. If you young guys are sooo for the War in Iraq, then get your ass over there and put your ass on the line for what you believe. I was in Kuwait and did my time. But you young guys with your "lets kick ass and ask questions later" attitude have no clue who or what your dealing with. This isn't a Democrat/Republican debate this isn't a war on Terror. This is a conflict of beliefs. And you can't put a weapon to a man's head to change those beliefs.
As in all wars...somebody has to continue to bring in revenue to the Gov't so that wars can be fought and won... I have no issue with those that stay home and support America's "let's kick their ass issue". Some of us know what we are dealing with... I'd personally rather fight Muslims than Orientals. No we can't change their mind by holding a gun to anybody's head... but if their mind won't change... I have no issue with a bullet passing thru their stupid brains either. This fight between Western Civ and the Muslim world is very very old...back before the Crusades... I'm like so fucking what... planet is too small now for us to ignore each other... let the fight begin... Western Civ will dominate still. It's like the Indians... I have no problem with what my tribe did in taking America... I benefited...so did you. I feel no guilt. Maybe it's 'cause I really believe in the old Germanic ways...strength and order.

[STORM SHADOW]

KILL KILL KILL and afterwards go back to the trees you came from and brag to your friends.... Bro it will take a massive move in a change in view points between us and Islam. Killing... as we have seen over the last 2000+ years, solves nothing. You really think your attitude will benefit the human race? Next time some fucker pisses you off in traffic, Just blow the son of a bitch away with your 9 mm. That will solve rude drives HUH.

At my work, we just hired an Armenian whom I'm training. He's been in the USA for 6 years. His country and family has been through it all. The former Roman Empire, Ottoman Turk invasion, Soviet, etc. Surrounded by maniac Muslims forever trying to wipe them off the Earth. They've been through a recent genocide (not recent in the last few years), of 3 million of theirs murdered. There are only about 3 million left. He knows first hand the plague of the muslim invasion into western civ. Beating down the muslim plague should be taken on now or it will be worse later... millions and millions of them have to perish. It's the way it is. West Civ and Islam cannot coexist unless the West is clearly the dominant power forcing submission on the other or they will wipe us from the earth, it's in their religious/cultural thinking. They know now we have our balls cut off and taking advantage of it. We are not the Warrior tribe we once were... we call it civilized now... they benefit from it because they won't play by rules.

[sahar mohammed]

Your posts are welcome here. You can definetely have an open minded discussion. Your posts were not edited, were they? That is because you can freely speak your mind.

thanks alot for the kind reply MR (big A)
I really appreciate it

[STRYFE]

Actually I'm a sis not a bro .And I haven't picked the wrong forum but I have picked the wrong minds to talk to ..I thought we can have an open minded discussion but it seems that no one here is ready to accept the other opinion with an open heart or even give the other the chance to say his point of view ...

It is wonderful to hear your point of view. I may not agree on all points, but I am learning.:)

[sahar mohammed]

It is wonderful to hear your point of view. I may not agree on all points, but I am learning.:)

Thank you MR STRYFE , and for sure you don't have to agree on all my points
It's not a crime to have different opinions

[STRYFE]

Thank you MR STRYFE , and for sure you don't have to agree on all my points
It's not a crime to have different opinions You and I were raised in different cultures and evidently both have strong beliefs. I was raised a Christian and you Muslim. I must confess to you that I think Arabian women are beautiful. Very attractive and in your case intelligent as well. You state your beliefs clearly and as I mentioned I am learning. I'd like to ask you many questions about your land, culture and beliefs.

What do you see of America on your news media? Where are you from?

I am from the Northwestern region of the United States.

[sahar mohammed]

You and I were raised in different cultures and evidently both have strong beliefs. I was raised a Christian and you Muslim. I must confess to you that I think Arabian women are beautiful. Very attractive and in your case intelligent as well. You state your beliefs clearly and as I mentioned I am learning. I'd like to ask you many questions about your land, culture and beliefs.

What do you see of America on your news media? Where are you from?

I am from the Northwestern region of the United States.


Hello MR STRYFE

Well , first about the part when you said you were raised a christian and I a Muslim ,even so we have many things in common between our beliefs
for example , Muslims must believe in Jesus that he was sent by god and must believe in the bible as well .they won't be Muslims if they didn't
and there are many other examples I might say later

About your question , I don't think you will like my answer .. but to be honest the picture of America those days are not very good .. Arabs feel that America is not on their side .there is a lost trust between the Arabs and America

But there is a wonderful thing about the Arabs which is they separate between the Americans and the decision makers
I think that this picture can be changed easily , especially now after the winning of democrats in the elections . they might manage to do something positive about the iraq issue

About the other part of your question , I'm from Egypt

[STRYFE]

I was thinking that if all anyone in the Middle East saw or learned about the United States was from viewing television shows such as MTV, then I wouldn't have a very positive image of the United States either.

Most people here work, raise their families, go to church and live life. Very far removed from most of the garbage you'll see on television.

I am curious about your role as a Muslim female. Do you feel like you are treated as a second class citizen in your country? I wonder about things I read concerning Islamic practices. For example, I read that 95% of females [Muslim population] have Khifadh [female circumcision] done to them as infants. Why is this done. Shouldn't females enjoy sex? :confused: These are not argumentative questions. I am just curious. Perhaps you could set me straight on the facts or correct me if I am misinformed.

Thank you.

P.s. The wind is blowing today where I live. Snowing and cold as well. What's is the temperature, etc in Egypt today?

[sahar mohammed]

I was thinking that if all anyone in the Middle East saw or learned about the United States was from viewing television shows such as MTV, then I wouldn't have a very positive image of the United States either.

Most people here work, raise their families, go to church and live life. Very far removed from most of the garbage you'll see on television.

I am curious about your role as a Muslim female. Do you feel like you are treated as a second class citizen in your country? I wonder about things I read concerning Islamic practices. For example, I read that 95% of females [Muslim population] have Khifadh [female circumcision] done to them as infants. Why is this done. Shouldn't females enjoy sex? :confused: These are not argumentative questions. I am just curious. Perhaps you could set me straight on the facts or correct me if I am misinformed.

Thank you.

P.s. The wind is blowing today where I live. Snowing and cold as well. What's is the temperature, etc in Egypt today?


Well MR STRYFE ,You are right , you can't learn about other places only by TV ... TV is not enough .. But Arabs didn't get that bad image about America only by TV shows ......there are many reasons that managed to create that picture such as the war on Iraq , the inhuman treatment to the Iraqis prisoners in Abu grib , helping Israel all the time and supporting them with money and weapons that they use to kill more and more Palestinians every day .. ..... All those reasons and other reasons created that picture that made lots of people lose their trust in America
But lets see what the democrats would do about those issues, they might manage to find solutions that would satisfy both sides

About my role as a Muslim female .. No, I never was treated as a second class citizen in my country .. I don't know where did you get that from , TV ?!!! :)

About the part when you talked about [female circumcision].. I'm surprised that you called it Islamic practices.. Why did you tied it with Islam , it has nothing to do with Islam or religion ,some Christians and Jewish do it too. it was exist before the existence of Islam with more than 6000 years ago .
, There is not even one verse in the Quran talked about it or order people to do it ,,so it has nothing to do with religion ..and the number you've said is far away from the truth .few people do it as a social habit (not only in Africa but in some other parts around the world),In many Arabian and Islamic countries they forbid it , they never do it in saudi arabia for example,as I said before it's a social habit that exist in some areas in africa that has nothing to do with beliefs .the decision in such an issue must be taken by doctors . doctors are the only people who have the right to decide if it was necessary or not , it's a medical issue not a religion issue . and it's only for doctors and scientists to decide

By the way , it's very cold in Egypt too but unfortunately it never snow . I'd love to see the snow one day ,I only see it in TV

[STRYFE]

.....the decision in such an issue must be taken by doctors . doctors are the only people who have the right to decide if it was necessary or not , it's a medical issue not a religion issue . and it's only for doctors and scientists to decide


Well, I can say this for certain. If a doctor in the United States 'decided' to remove a little girls clitoris, he/she would lose their medical liscense in the blink of an eye. They would also be subject to law suits and would lose.

Our prison system in Iraq is not without injustices I'll agree with you there. I have not seen any people we have captured having their heads cut off, while we spew hate towards Arabs.

I can see both sides of the issue. It surely is a difficult situation.

Here is one of the sources of my information. I chose Canadian medical journals rather than the United States articles. I just cannot understand why anyone wouldn't want an adult healthy female to enjoy sexual intercourse.

Anyway, I am off. I am enjoying our conversations, Sahar Mohammed.
CANADIAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION JOURNAL, Volume 148, Number 2: Pages 288-289,
15 January 1993.

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Female circumcision:
When medical ethics confronts cultural values
by
Eike-Henner Kluge, PhD

Chair, Department of Philosophy, University of Victoria, British Columbia;
Member of Advisory Committee on Ethical Issues in Health Care to British Columbia Ministry of Health;
Director of Ethics and Legal Affairs, Canadian Medical Association (1989-91).

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SUPPOSE a physician is asked to perform a procedure that has no recognized medical value and may harm the person who undergoes it. Suppose that the person requesting it is doing so not on her own behalf, but for her young daughter. How should the physician respond?

The answer is easy. The doctor will probably say that medical ethics forbids undertaking any procedure that is potentially harmful and has no therapeutic value.

But suppose that the request is so deeply rooted in the cultural background of the woman making the request that the mere suggestion that the procedure is inappropriate would be regarded as a deep insult to her cultural identity. Furthermore, suppose that the woman claims that failure to perform the procedure would harm the girl's self-esteem and cultural identity, and affect her societal integration. And suppose she points out that the World Health Organization's (WHO) definition of health includes the notion of social well-being.

Is the physician who refuses to perform the procedure not making a judgement about the ethical acceptability of those cultural values and rejecting WHO's definition of health?

Female circumcision, which has already been banned by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, does indeed present an ethical problem. But is it unethical for a physician to perform it? The answer is yes, but explanations are needed.

If a woman competently requests the circumcision for herself and fully understands the nature and implications of what she is asking, it is like any other request for a procedure that involves medical skill and expertise. The physician must be sure that the woman really does understand the nature of her request, and that it is voluntary. When all is said and done, if there really is an informed, competent and voluntary request, then it is essentially a request for cosmetic surgery, albeit an extreme version.

But this does not mean that a physician automatically has to perform the procedure. Here the nature of the physician-patient relationship, and the ethical duties of the medical profession, come into play.

The profession has a monopoly on providing medical services. This means that it must provide all medical services that are appropriate and necessary, and can be provided under the prevailing circumstances. Therefore physicians have a duty to provide such services even if they do not like it---assuming the duty is a condition of their profession.

However, having a duty to provide all medically appropriate and necessary services that are possible is different from having a duty to provide all medical services that are possible and that anyone might ask for. At that point, we are no longer dealing with the services that form the basis of the professional monopoly or that are socially mandated.

We are in the realm of what physicians and patients might voluntarily agree to as a matter of contract. Here, the personal values of physicians can play a role as long as they are not unethical: the physician may refuse to provide the service.

People who think that physicians have to ignore their own qualms and simply do what they are asked have a mistaken understanding of the physician-patient relationship, and of the medical profession's obligations.

The patient (or patient proxy) does have the ultimate right to decide whether to accept or reject any diagnostic measure or treatment---this is the heart of patient autonomy. However, the physician's entry into a professional relationship with a patient does not turn that doctor into a moral eunuch. Unquestionably, physicians may not impose their own values on patients. But that does not mean that physicians must be ethically uncritical.

If what the patient wants violates a fundamental ethical principle, then no matter how much the patient wants it, the physician does not have to agree to do it. The reason is simple: no one has a duty to do something that is unethical. This is not a matter of personal values, but of basic, universal and fundamental ethical principles that apply to all people.

Of course, the request for female circumcision is usually made by a woman on behalf of a child. Should the physician then refuse? Yes. Female circumcision is special because the woman is acting as a proxy decision maker for a child. Proxy decision makers do not have the right to use their values and perspectives---they must do what is in the best interests of the incompetent person, and may use their values or standards as long as this will not imperil the welfare of their charge. Most important, they may use them only if they do not demean the incompetent person.

Values that treat people as mere objects for the gratification of others, or for advancing a certain view, fail that test. It does not matter that such values are hallowed in tradition and are a cultural mainstay.

Canada is not a melting pot of cultures: it is a mosaic. The people who live here are not forced to abandon their cultural heritage and adopt a homogeneous cultural identity. In fact, at its best Canada encourages its people to preserve their cultural heritage. By charter and law, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of that heritage or background. This cultural attitude is the reflection of a fundamental ethical principle: respect for people. Every person is someone of incommensurable value, and the beliefs of that person are worthy of respect.

Respect---but not unreflective acceptance. Some of the countries where female circumcision is common have accepted that it is a violation of the dignity and integrity of a woman. They have outlawed the practice, tradition notwithstanding. The United Kingdom and France have done the same.

For its part, Canada and Canadian physicians cannot consistently espouse the principle of respect for people on the one hand, and then agree to a practice that violates that principle. Canadian physicians cannot consistently accept the principle of respect for people in the name of medical ethics, and then perform procedures they know to be medically inappropriate, harmful, and demeaning only because they do not want to offend a misplaced cultural sensitivity.

With due alteration of detail, the same ethical reasoning holds for male circumcision. There rarely are medical reasons for performing the procedure; personal preference or religious values of the parents usually underlie the request.

If these are insufficient to justify the circumcision of girls then, unless there are distinguishing medical reasons, they are also insufficient to justify the circumcision of boys. To argue differently is to be guilty of discrimination on the basis of sex. The fact that female circumcision is a more serious intervention does not alter the situation. Both involve what in other contexts would be called non-consensual mutilation of a minor for non-medical reasons.


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LETTER
Can Med Assoc J 1994;149(1):16-17. [1 July 1993]

Dr. Kluge has done a commendable job of discussing the ethical implications of female circumcision. He has also succinctly argued why ethical physicians should not condone a procedure that is seen as a violation of the dignity and integrity of a woman.

However, he has suggested that the circumcision of boys is also "non-consensual mutilation of a minor for non-medical reasons" and as such, is no different from the circumcision of girls. This seems a much less ethically tenable position.

Although there is ample evidence that the clitoris plays an important role in the life of adult women, the prepuce serves little, if any, physiologic function.1 There are no known medical indications for or benefits from the circumcision of a healthy newborn girl, but the circumcision of the penis decreases the risk of urinary tract infections,2 virtually eliminates the development of phimosis and balanitis,3,4 improves penile hygiene3 and almost eliminates the risk of penile tumours.5

With all this in mind I find it difficult to consider circumcision of the prepuce and the clitoris medically and ethically equivalent.

Shabbir M.H. Alibhai
Richmond Hill, Ont.

REFERENCES

Guyton AC. Physiology of the Human Body, 5th ed, Saunders, Philadelphia, 1979:475-8.
Wiswell TE, Enzenauer RW, Holton ME et al. Declining frequency of circumcision: implications for changes in the absolute incidence and male to female sex ratio of urinary tract infections in early infancy. Pediatrics 1987;79:338-42.
Dunnihoo DR. Fundamentals of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Lippincott, Philadelphia, 1990:355.
Nelson NM, Super DM. Establishment of equilibrium. In Hokelman RA, Friedman SB, Nelson NM et al (eds): Primary Pediatric Care, 2nd ed, Mosby Yr Bk, St Louis, 1992:465-6.
Williams RD, Donovan JF Jr. Tumours of the penis. In Way LW (ed): Current Surgical Diagnosis and Treatment, Appleton & Lange, East Norwalk, Conn, 1991:937.

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[sahar mohammed]

Thanks alot for the article MR STRYFE..
It's very helpful and important

[sablya]

Mr.Vander_V and Mr STORM SHADOW

If you have the right to criticize any one, you don't have the right to insult any one and what he said is obviously an insult ..

Words are one thing. Words should be met with words. Violence is a different matter. Those who resort to violence because of words declare themselves to be without a legitimate logical defense. That is, Islam cannot logically defend itself so it must resort to violence in order to distract the world from the poverty of its own ideas. The real irony of the thing is that the Pope was absolutely right in his comments and the violent reaction of the Muslims PROVES HIS POINT.