middle school kids refusing to say The Pledge of Allegiance

[Homer]

Teen stands up for right to sit during pledge
High school student gives his teachers a lesson in free speech



12:00 AM CST on Sunday, December 4, 2005
By JOSHUA PARTLOW The Washington Post


WASHINGTON – Standing 5 feet tall in checkered Vans, 14-year-old Theodore Pugh is an unimposing First Amendment warrior.

But the freshman at Leonardtown High School in St. Mary's County, Md., with the help of the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland and his principal, taught his teachers a lesson in free speech and reinforced his right to abstain from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at school.

Theodore became upset this year when, he said, a friend in his homeroom was "reprimanded" by the teacher for remaining seated during the pledge. The teacher, according to Theodore, said that she had a brother in the military and that it was disrespectful to his sacrifice not to stand.

"I thought, 'We have to research this,' " said Theodore, an honor roll student.

Without telling his principal, Theodore – with help from his father – wrote to several First Amendment organizations, including the ACLU of Maryland, to find out what rights students have.

As it happened, the ACLU was already on the case. At least four students in three public school systems – St. Mary's, Baltimore and Prince George's counties – had reported being forced to stand or say the pledge although they wanted to abstain, said ACLU of Maryland lawyer Richard Griffiths.

"It was a succession of all of these pledge things from around the state that made us stop and say maybe we should try to get everybody on the same page about what the law says," Mr. Griffiths said.

So the ACLU contacted school system superintendents in every county in Maryland, as well as the state Department of Education.

After receiving a letter from the ACLU, Leonardtown High School Principal Scott Smith said he wanted to make sure the rules were clear to teachers.

"We cannot require a student to stand during the pledge. We cannot require a student to leave the room during the pledge," he told his staff during a meeting, adding that students must remain "respectfully silent" during the pledge.

Staff members lobbed several questions at Mr. Smith:

"Why can we not respectfully ask them to leave the room?"

What if the sitting starts to "spread to other kids and create a rebellion?"

"Can we tell them how we feel?"

Mr. Smith replied that students would feel singled out if told to leave the room, that he felt the novelty of sitting during the pledge would probably wear off, and that it's not the job of teachers to proselytize to students.

Disputes over the pledge periodically surface in school systems across the country. A U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last year that a Pennsylvania law requiring schools to notify parents if students abstain from the pledge was unconstitutional.

The U.S. Supreme Court heard a case last year brought by a California atheist who objected to his daughter's saying the pledge because it contained the words "under God." The Supreme Court didn't address the constitutionality of the issue but ruled that the man lacked legal standing to file suit on his daughter's behalf because he didn't have full custody. In September, in a new case, a federal judge declared the reciting of the pledge in public schools unconstitutional, a decision that could put the divisive issue on track for another round of Supreme Court arguments.

Claudette Smith of Essex, Md., said her two children in the Baltimore County school system have been told they have to stand or recite the pledge. Her daughter, an 11th-grader at Chesapeake High School, was told by three separate teachers that she was being disrespectful by remaining seated during the pledge.

"I just think that the schools and their staffs, as well as their students, should be educated in the fact that they don't have to stand ... if they don't want to, and it's really nobody's business why," Ms. Smith said.

For Theodore Pugh, not saying the Pledge of Allegiance was less a political statement and more an expression of rights, he said.

[Homer]

What a bunch of shit. It's no small wonder why parents can't control thier kids when basic issues of respect cannot be enforced in our schools. We all enjoy the benefits and opportunities that being a citizen of this country provides and we should be greatful and show some respect for what our country stands for. I see these spoiled ass kids everyday that think they can do whatever they please and don't have to answer to anyone.
Don't want to say the Pledge? That kind of bullshit would not have been tolerated when I was in school. I couldn't imagine what my father, who served in Vietnam, would have said if I was sent home for some disrespectful shit as that.

[JJ Insane1]

That is gonna be my child!

Just because he is born here doesnt mean he has to love it. Please... dont say, if he dont like it... move. He is in middle school for Gods sakes... he cant "move" ... so therefore the only other way to show his dissatisfaction of this country is to sit...

Maybe he didnt want to pledge to a country who starts illegal wars... lets millions starve on the streets but can spend a trillion dollars on a bullshit war for oil.... takes away all his rights in the name of "fear" and terror.
Well.. thats his RIGHT... thats America isnt it... the land of the FREE?

If you say... suspend him because of what he believes.. if you say, expel him because of what he believes.... Bla! Isnt that what that other dude kinda used to do if you didnt believe the way you wanted him??? Who was he... Oh, Hitler that was his name.

I give him props... he has BALLS.... and CONTROL of his own thoughts.

JJ Insane1

[JJ Insane1]

I couldn't imagine what my father, who served in Vietnam, would have said if I was sent home for some disrespectful shit as that.


Bro, my dad was in Vietnam. My dad came home with a purple heart and a life time of very bad memories. My dad hated every second he was over there. My dad totally disagrees with this bullshit Iraq war.... disagreed with the bullshit Vietnam war also. My dad would support what ever i thought in my heart was right about any war. My dad does not control my train of thinking. Should your dad control your mind? Should all children be trained and made to think what ever there parents think?

If you say yes.... then what happened to "America - the land of the free" ... what happened to "freedom of speech".

Is it unpatriotic to have your own mind and thoughts now?

I love America. I love every freedom i have. So does my father. I do not agree with ALLOT of things in this country. Sure... most will say, go somewhere else and see how much you like it... to them i say, No - i do not run from my problems. I stand up to them and i stand up to what i believe.



JJ Insane1

[JJ Insane1]

Homer]"What a bunch of shit. It's no small wonder why parents can't control thier kids when basic issues of respect cannot be enforced in our schools."


Respect for who? Is this child disrespecting his parents? Is he disrespecting the teacher because he does not believe in what she does?
NO... he is simply not allowing himself to be told how to think and told what he should believe in.
Maybe he doesnt believe in the war... maybe he doenst want to pledge to a country that cant feed there homeless but can spend so much on a war for Oil. Maybe he doesnt like the fact all his rights are being taken away. Maybe he doenst like the fact that by the time he is your age he will have no social security.
What ever the problem is... he has a right to express it.
If he has a problem with this country doesnt make him unpatriotic. The fact that he can express the problem he has makes him AMERICAN.

JJ Insane1

[Homer]

That is gonna be my child!

Just because he is born here doesnt mean he has to love it. Please... dont say, if he dont like it... move. He is in middle school for Gods sakes... he cant "move" ... so therefore the only other way to show his dissatisfaction of this country is to sit...

Maybe he didnt want to pledge to a country who starts illegal wars... lets millions starve on the streets but can spend a trillion dollars on a bullshit war for oil.... takes away all his rights in the name of "fear" and terror.
Well.. thats his RIGHT... thats America isnt it... the land of the FREE?

If you say... suspend him because of what he believes.. if you say, expel him because of what he believes.... Bla! Isnt that what that other dude kinda used to do if you didnt believe the way you wanted him??? Who was he... Oh, Hitler that was his name.

I give him props... he has BALLS.... and CONTROL of his own thoughts.

JJ Insane1

Telling someone to "move" if they don't like our way of doing things is a weak retort and you will not hear that from me.

"He is in middle school for Gods sakes"
"I give him props... he has BALLS.... and CONTROL of his own thoughts."

The first quote of yours makes more sense then the second. Obviously, JJ you do not have any children around that age. They Know nothing more of the world then waht they are exposed to at home. Our children believe what we tell them is the "truth" untill there minds are evolved enough to search out the answers for themselves. With the vast majority of kids that age is 18-25 depending on their maturity level. Some kids believe their parents views all their lives and never learn to think on ther own. Sheep come in all colors.
This kid is doing this because his parents either have told him to or encouraged it. What an incredible diservice to your child.

Look my bottom line is this: We live in a great country. Now where close to perfect but better then any other. Many things happen that I don't agree with but "moving" does not solve ANY of our problems. We must all work together to right the wrongs of our society. Letting children too young to know ANYTHING about the world sit out the Pledge because they don't want to say it solves NOTHING! If we were talking about college students having to say the Pledge then I would agree as they may their own reasons not to want to say it.
However, we are talking about kids. And kids need to learn RESPECT and not just for their country but for many things. Encouraging these kids that they don't have to do this because they "don't want to" is why we are in some of the mess we are with the kids we are raising.
I have many views that are different from my 16 yo son. I do not attempt to impress them on him. I state my side and if he does not agree I challenge him to explain why he thinks I am wrong. I want my son to think for himself-not parrot my beliefs.

Homer

[JJ Insane1]

Telling someone to "move" if they don't like our way of doing things is a weak retort and you will not hear that from me.

"He is in middle school for Gods sakes"
"I give him props... he has BALLS.... and CONTROL of his own thoughts."

The first quote of yours makes more sense then the second. Obviously, JJ you do not have any children around that age. They Know nothing more of the world then waht they are exposed to at home. Our children believe what we tell them is the "truth" untill there minds are evolved enough to search out the answers for themselves. With the vast majority of kids that age is 18-25 depending on their maturity level. Some kids believe their parents views all their lives and never learn to think on ther own. Sheep come in all colors.
This kid is doing this because his parents either have told him to or encouraged it. What an incredible diservice to your child.


Look my bottom line is this: We live in a great country. Now where close to perfect but better then any other. Many things happen that I don't agree with but "moving" does not solve ANY of our problems. We must all work together to right the wrongs of our society. Letting children too young to know ANYTHING about the world sit out the Pledge because they don't want to say it solves NOTHING! If we were talking about college students having to say the Pledge then I would agree as they may their own reasons not to want to say it.
However, we are talking about kids. And kids need to learn RESPECT and not just for their country but for many things. Encouraging these kids that they don't have to do this because they "don't want to" is why we are in some of the mess we are with the kids we are raising.
I have many views that are different from my 16 yo son. I do not attempt to impress them on him. I state my side and if he does not agree I challenge him to explain why he thinks I am wrong. I want my son to think for himself-not parrot my beliefs.

Homer




Ok... this child took time to investigate what his rights are. No matter his age, his right to reject standing to pledge is just that... his right.
I totally agree that children should be taught respect. That is not even in most parents vocabulary these days. Its sad... but it has nothing to do with him expressing his rights.
Lets just say his parents "taught" him that he shouldnt stand and pledge. So what? The children who DO stand and pledge are "taught" by there parents to do so as well.
This child didnt want to stand... so what? Does that mean he is disrespectful to anyone? NO. It shows he understands that he has the right to be free (for now).
If he beat other kids up because they stood to pledge then that is disrespecting there beliefs.

I give you props for letting your 16 year old believe what he decides but no matter what he is going to be "shadowed" by what you want him to believe.
Thats life. If he chooses to think this country is moving the wrong direction or if he does not support the war... what ever the case, he has his right.
You might not agree but thats life also... and thats freedom.

So... the bottom line in my opinion is ... be a parent and teach your child to respect OTHERS beliefs... respect elders.... parents, teachers... but do not TELL them or MAKE them stand to support something they just do not believe in. If you make him stand when he doesnt want to... then guess what he is going to do when he gets old enough ... REBELL against you.

I went to every single high school game my nephew started linebacker in this year... all the way through the play offs and i did not stand on time for that same damn pledge . Thats my right. I DO support my country... but i do not support this war... i do support the people who are loosing there lives for the war made of lies... but i do not support the government that put them there.
So.. therefore i choose to sit. I will continue to sit until i am choose other wise. Not one time has any one in the stadium said one single word. If they do... so what? Its there ignorance speaking... not to mention i will wrap there ass up with 280lbs of "freedom" to protect my rights.

JJ insane1

[STORM SHADOW]

None of you read this properly. "Without telling his principal, Theodore – with help from his father" the kid whom is only 14 yrs old. He wasn't standing up.... it was his father. His father impressed this on the kid. I will not give the kid props for having his own mind... I'd say he was nothing but a weak runt that's easily manipulated by his parents.

When I was ohhh about 4 and found out that there was no Santa... I realized that my parents had lied to me. I turned cynic from that point on and I do not believe anything that comes out of a person's mouth unless I have valid proof. Needless to say my parents and I had a rough time growing up as I never trusted them... I couldn't take them at their word. Yes... I understood things very well as a little boy. Had my parents pulled that on me what that boy's parents are pulling on him...it wouldn't work. I can tell you for sure.. that boy at that age does not have enough information and experience in the world to make such a stand and call it valid.

So to round it off... father stood up in the class room in a runts body.

SS

[JJ Insane1]

None of you read this properly. "Without telling his principal, Theodore – with help from his father" the kid whom is only 14 yrs old. He wasn't standing up.... it was his father. His father impressed this on the kid. I will not give the kid props for having his own mind... I'd say he was nothing but a weak runt that's easily manipulated by his parents.

When I was ohhh about 4 and found out that there was no Santa... I realized that my parents had lied to me. I turned cynic from that point on and I do not believe anything that comes out of a person's mouth unless I have valid proof. Needless to say my parents and I had a rough time growing up as I never trusted them... I couldn't take them at their word. Yes... I understood things very well as a little boy. Had my parents pulled that on me what that boy's parents are pulling on him...it wouldn't work. I can tell you for sure.. that boy at that age does not have enough information and experience in the world to make such a stand and call it valid.

So to round it off... father stood up in the class room in a runts body.

SS

Again... EVERY CHILD is a shadow of there parents. They know what there parents tell them... BUT.. a 14 year old is old enough to make his own mind up.

To say... his parents are the culprit would work both ways... so all the kids who stood up during the pledge didnt mean anything - it was just taught by there parents.

It works both ways.

[JJ Insane1]

When I was ohhh about 4 and found out that there was no Santa...

SS


SS ! Oh.. you have gone and done it now! You say there is not santa?
I will have you to know, i know Mr Clause personally and he and I used to hang out with Bigfoot during the summer .... he even parties with my friends from planet Kultar during his summer vacation!

Take it back! Now! :p

[STORM SHADOW]

Sorry... a 14 yr old doesn't know shit and hasn't seen shit.

SS

[STORM SHADOW]

SS ! Oh.. you have gone and done it now! You say there is not santa?
I will have you to know, i know Mr Clause personally and he and I used to hang out with Bigfoot during the summer .... he even parties with my friends from planet Kultar during his summer vacation!

Take it back! Now! :p

Mr Clause? isn't he the giant space sponge from the lost planet of co-ed shower stalls?

SS

[mus315]

I have 2 brothers who signed up at 17. They did not go to Vietnam because they were drafted. BUT my best friend who was and has many mental problems and bad dreams would not take it back. He is behind our country 100% and yes I will say you have the option to move. If you think we have it so bad go check it out for yourself. I did my time and now my 18 and 21 year old brothers are doing theres and for a country that does'nt care. If you think your rights are being taken away now, see how it is when we sit back and do nothing. Like it or not your dads memories and beliefs have effected you also. I have respect for your dad because like it or not he faught for my country. I hated the military myself but it gives me greater respect for those who continue on. I only did 6 years in the army and hated it but if it came down to it and it may, I'll do it again.

[jrflex10er]

I have a problem with someone not RESPECTING what happened before his he was born. Saying The Pledge of Allegiance isn't for supporting our goverment and their decisions...It's showing RESPECT for the people that died in our country...and if I was that teacher I would of slapped the taste right of is mouth. This is bullshit. The flag does not represent our goverment and their decisions. I hate our goverment but the damn kid better stand up and say it for the respect of the soldiers and the pain of their families.

[jrflex10er]

Sorry... a 14 yr old doesn't know shit and hasn't seen shit.

SS



He doesn't know shit? and hasn't seen shit? Who's fault is that? Maybe the parents....a 14 is ready to listen. I'm sick of parents not teaching their kids RESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kids now days are the most disrespectful people in the US....and why? Because their parents don't teach them. Because their parents are WEAK! I'll tell you what....I'll bet everything I have that this kids father wasn't in the military. That's the problem with young kids these days....LAKE OF DISCIPLINE! Now days when a kid gets in trouble the parents come in and say "oh not my kid he wouldn't do that." Back in the "old" days if the kid got in trouble in school he would of been DISCIPLINED the way he was supposed to....it's not the fact if he started it or not its the fact he got in trouble....this is what that kid needs...he's a little prick and I could even bet his parents are soft!

[cjn1717]

Shit like this is why are country is going to shit, no morals, no values, just bullshit. Our country was founded on certain principles and values, thats why this country thrived and took off and is what it is today. This little shit 14 year old needs an ass kicking and then after that to be sent to a war zone where people are dying everyday to protect American values and the American way of life. Every country has its problems including America but for Gods sake noone realizes what they truly have or what a blessing it was to be born in such a great country. Its true there are some issues I question about American politics but at the end of the day, my belly is full, I have employment, health care is out there, and I have a roof over my head. What you do with your opportunities in this country is your choice but you better be thankful you are here, because life could be alot alot alot worse.

[CWH]

cjn1717, please tell me how people dying in Iraq are protecting American values and way of life? I didn't know the aforementioned were even in Iraq, I doubt the Iraquis (sp) could even give a rats ass about our (so called) values and way of life.

[Celina]

What does pledging allegiance, or not as the case may be, to a flag have to do with remembering fallen soldiers?
I have been to the war cemeteries in Normandy and my class did not once say the Pledge, nor did we hear it said. Does that mean we disrespected the fallen American soldiers? Did our wreath and our silence mean nothing because we laid it while reciting war poetry not patriotic vows?

Because I am just 15, can I not hold views I have formed myself? I will not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. This is not because I do not respect the fallen, I do- they died trying to do what they believed was right. This is because the USA is doing things I disagree with, including some which I believe conflict with the Constitution and many which infringe on human rights. These aremy views, not my parents.

At 15 I am more than capable of forming independent opinions. I am more aware of global issues than many adults. I am not saying that my parents did not help to shape me, I am saying that I have long since passed the age of blind acceptance. If I remain seated during the pledge, it is not disrespecting the american way of life, it is celebrating it. Freedom of speech is a fundamental part of that way of life and if you force anyone, child or not, to recite the pledge you undermine that. I remain seated because if I stand I disrespect the United States of America and all that it supposedly stands for.

[terryd5150]

Homer]"What a bunch of shit. It's no small wonder why parents can't control thier kids when basic issues of respect cannot be enforced in our schools."


Respect for who?



Respect for the country that provides the school that his disrespectful little ass is sitting in getting an education FOR FREE!


JJ, you really should try living abroad for a little while. It would not be "running from your problems", rather it might help you put into perspective just how well you have it here, and how many "problems" you actually face in your day-to-day life.

Is the USA perfect, HELL NO! BUT, show me a country that is.

At least here in the USA you can voice your hateful opinions about our country without the fear of imprisonment or death just for doing so.

[terryd5150]

You should learn more from first-hand experience about how other countries in this world operate before you take such a strong stand against the one you are living in.

I know at 15 the only thing you have to guide you in your opinions is what you see in the media, however the media makes their money on sensationalizism and not actually reporting the current state of events, and for them it is quite profitable to sell you anti-patriotic sentiments.

If you truly want to "be unique" and form your on opinion and not what you think someone else wants you to believe, then don't buy into what the media hypes. Go to these destinations, see these people, live among them- only then will you have a frame of reference to compare THIS country to.


Compare your life to that of others in your age group in various regions of the world before you take such an extreme stand against OUR country- mine AND yours.

[terryd5150]

.. a 14 year old is old enough to make his own mind up.



To some degree, yes. In this one, NO.


How many 14 years old have first hand experience dealing with the governments of foreign nations?

How many have seen true opression, in the form of death or dismemberment for openly opposing their government's policies? Opression to them is not being able to have the newest ipod in the color they want or Aeropostle not having that cool new shirt in their size.

What they are forming their opinions on is what they see on TV, which means they are not puppets of their parents, they are slaves to the media.