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ivan
05-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Let me offer up my perspective that takes a different perspective on religion. I am going to make this a log read so read this but be prepared to see the truth of life in it! I even used an excerpt from something I am working on, and there is the chance that some of you may get very offended. Other than that, it is time to for a reality check, and I agree BTW with a lot of what Conan21 said!

Instead of debating over which religion (Islam vs. Christianity) is incorrect or misleading in it’s assertions; or misconceptions of who Allah or God is, how about realizing and understanding what religion is and not necessarily who God is but what God is.

Before I tackle what I think God is, I will unravel the veil for some of you, and for others I will confirm what your heart has told you. I am talking about religion. Yep, organized religion. For the most part I will be describing a lot of the Christian beliefs, but I think of all religions the same. The Bible is the #1 best selling book of all time. So it is, in essence, the greatest story ever told. Or is that sold? Whichever the case, the fact remains it was written by man – not a man sitting on a gold throne, bathed in blinding light, with a gray beard, sporting white flowing robes, with a resonating and powerful voice filled with a demanding authority to do his bidding. Whether the Qur'an or the Bible, or ANY other written text that provides an outline or guide to living life under a deity’s control…is followed…as in a true follower (like a Muslim or Christian) then unfortunately as sad is this sounds, they have been fooled by the oldest trick in the book. FEAR. Religion is about the most extreme racket I have ever seen executed. It is almost the perfect system, even self-maintaining. And that is due to addiction. An addiction to the comfort the religion provides to them. Of “knowing” what is virtually a mystery to mankind: Death. What it is and what happens afterwards… And that is not even considering the very unpopular and rather disturbing thought that there might not even be an ‘afterward’. Although that sounds like a boring and somewhat frightening conclusion, it must be regarded as a possibility – but I personally do not think that is what happens. I will get to that.
So religions have a common denominator – fear appeals. This is what I mean; I asked a guy I work with, (a devout Christian) what he thought of God…He answered in the typical and almost-rehearsed-sounding religious jargon of what the church had taught him. “Is God love, or does god teach love?” I asked him… He sort of stammered, but basically agreed with me. “Does love bring about a sense of fear or punishment?” Another question I asked. “Absolutely not” he told me, and then I asked if God is love, or teaches this, then why is there a powerful fear associated with it? He seemed very puzzled by this, and I saw him mentally crawl out of his mind prison that he inadvertently created for himself. Only for a brief second though, as I watched the familiar symptoms of a man controlled by religious fear appeals quickly reassure itself.

This is because his beliefs give him comfort, not only to solve the death dilemma, but to also reinforce his personal sense of significance and importance to the universe, (and I am not saying that we do not bear significance), and I do not blame them. As a young child I knew there was something wrong with what they were teaching me in Sunday school. To teach love and kindness, but at the same time be driven by fear and persecution. What a contradiction. I used to really wonder about adults and the establishment in general as a youth – I saw it for what it was. Now religions are finally beginning to be seen for what they are. It is a machine that people get inserted into as fuel that runs on fear, and because death is an absolute guaranteed certainty, the anticipation of it (life) can be sugarcoated with a plan or some type of preparation. This is what makes it the perfect model of a cycled method of control. One that could control the masses in a peaceful and non-threatening way…unless of course someone dared to not believe or have faith…Heretics! Blasphemy! They were quickly dealt with and those that were not part of the religion (like a gang) were seen as lesser of a human, they were killed, ridiculed, alienated, and other things that did two things: 1. it defended their beliefs, thus defending God – making him proud right? And 2. others saw what happened to outcasts and once again, fear was used to control the actions of men.

When I say sugarcoated, this is heaven, or a promise of greatness, to celebrate with God in his glory – to be close to God, to worship him, (remember he is a jealous God lol) and we are led to believe that if we make it to heaven we can dance with angels, as a kid I was told I could eat all the cookies I wanted – whatever I wanted –as long as it was holy…but I would not want unholy things because otherwise I would not have ended up in heaven…so basically heaven is a place of ultimate obedience, and the angels playing the harps with the gentle breeze, over yonder kickin’ it on a cloud, are there for my scenery…Oh, I can also meet up with old friends, loved ones, relatives, and other people that have passed on. Do you see the problem there? Part of what religion does, is base it on wish fulfillment. Here comes the other part of the model. The fear appeal. So the sugar coating was heaven, a place where we all ideally, would love to end up after death.
A place of godly potential, no threat of pain or punishment, just pure contentment. If you made it to heaven you proved yourself worthy to be in God’s presence. So then life is basically some fucked up game that God put together, because although he is perfect in every way, and he could make man perfect (oh wait he did that, but the woman came around and gave the man a piece of fruit – shit who told man the game was already on??!) God took a cheap shot; in such a cruel little game that God decided to play with our lives, he makes us have to eat to survive, and so he provides fruit (he made it not us…that’s twisted) and of course we want to eat it, that is the way he programmed us…otherwise it would taste like utter shit. But it doesn’t, so Adam eats the fruit, and KABLOOM --- instantly he realizes his wang is out and something is wrong with that.

So God plays this game with our lives, and he demands obedience to him. Why does he have such issues? A perfect being in my opinion, would not need to have to play some game or participate in some experiment where he creates these beings to have pleasures and then tempts them constantly, and if they are able to resist these temptations, which, basically means malfunction, they are awarded sanctuary. At the same time we must worship the being that while creating you, decided to make us prone to his taboos. Hmmm..Gee thanks. Sort of…… diabolical. Nice God. The fear appeal is that if we do not resist temptation then we shall burn in eternal damnation, suffer in the lakes of fiery hell, eat goat shit daily, and undergo ruthless torture and horrible agony. Sounds like the last place ANYONE would want to go….

EXACTLY. Although it sounded like some demonic fairy tale growing up, I was frightened by this concept when I first heard it. Everyone is. And THAT is the fear that controls people drugged on religion.

The church and countless others who have been driving the machine, taking the drug, and so forth – have basically been scaring kids and adults into becoming a person of ‘faith’. Do you really want to know what faith is? It’s an invisible sense of comfort and if faith offers you comfort, well, false comfort is none at all.

The punishment for not having faith? Doubters seem to get the worst of all, because in many beliefs, as long as you are “saved” you may sin, and sin and sin or murder, rape, etc…and because Jesus died for US (remember God programmed us to do exactly what he despises) we may be forgiven. But doubters or non-believers? They are seen as worse people, because they have not given their life to the lord. So they tell kids the horrors of hell, and try to convert adults by “saving” I mean brainwashing them, and by joining the gang you get a shot at heaven. So this means that when we are born, we are born in sin, or born ‘bad’. But if we acknowledge and praise Jesus for what he did (getting murdered) and accept the Lord as our Savior, we will be saved. By accepting this doctrine to govern your actions, you have also just taken a drug.

Using religion as a drug is another example that mimics what religion really is. Drugs are used to escape reality, so is religion. After reading most of the Bible when I was 20, and hearing it a lot as a child, I reasoned that these stories are not reality, more like fairy tales, wizardry, and other magic. Fantasy. Escapism. With a lot of drugs there is a dark side… mixed realities, loss of interest in other parts of life, decreased/increased sexual drive, not eating, addiction…to name a few. How about religion? Mixed realities? I was shocked to see how many people actually take the bible literally!!! Again, when I was 20, I saw these stories as metaphorical, and that is how I interpreted it. Pay attention to the message in the story, don’t believe that Noah actually built an Arc the size of two football fields, and that is rained 40 days and 40 nights, and every animal, mosquito, earthworm, of both sexes came aboard. Or that Jonah was swallowed by a whale ß if someone said that today what would you think he was? Crazy? Or maybe on drugs..Get my point? Mixed realities. Or how about the folks that are so devout that everything else takes a back seat to religion? Mormons have to go on missions, and with the long list of the rules religions impose on it’s followers, they really have no choice to lose interest in other parts of their life. Catholic priests must remain celibate – never have sex. No wonder so many catholic members of the clergy get into trouble with young boys…the bible has taught them that sex is sooo taboo and all their life they have had NATURAL tendencies to mate, yet their religion restricts them – god programmed them with these urges, and so they wrestle with this predicament, trying to find some solution – they think since they have given their life to God completely, and they are so into them, perhaps they could sexually express this in some way…Hmmm…They see that God created us in his own image (leave it to man’s ego) so to them God is a male, and innocent….hmmm…young (innocent) boy (a male).. They want to express this physically and since God does not materialize upon summoning him, the only other option is to love what they are supposed to love. God. Drugs have caused or been used in horrible sex acts such as these also. See the similarity? What about when drugs make a user stop eating? What is fasting in the bible? When Jesus died and was resurrected this is celebrated (Easter) According to the bible Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness (always 40 BTW) and he did not eat, while out in the brush, the devil came to him he was tempted by the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- and by citing scripture to the devil, he overcame all these temptations, at which point the devil left him, angels ministered to Jesus, and he began his ministry. To me this sounds like a withdrawl from the drugs. Which also brings up addiction.

People can get addicted to anything, and unfortunately for some, religion can too. Ever see that glazed look in the eye of some real bible thumpers? All they talk about is jesus this, jesus that, and seriously go ape shit crazy for God. This is satisfying a need. For some folks, the prospect of dying, the unknown, pain and suffering, the devil, hell, is SUCH a big fear in them, they take comfort…TOO MUCH comfort in being a robot to the religion, hey they just want to get to heaven…Truth is…these people are so fucking scared deep inside, so frightened, that ignorance truly is BLISS. This is the addiction. They do not care how it happened, or what happened, they just have something concrete to believe in that insures their saftey or survival…I say survival because I have heard the term ‘life’ after death a lot with these folks. This is just a refusal to admit loss of individuality, loss of identity, loss of ego…a lot of these people pride themselves at who they have become, and to just die and not be able to celebrate it is simply unacceptable.
Religion is able to address all these fears, to assure their safety, to protect them, to be prepared, because to face the unexpected or unknown contrasdicts their beleifs. They insure that by the phrase god is all knowing. So if God sent some info to us via prophets, who were men – men that were inspired by god – then whatever they said was the voice of God. And what is written or even what was said could have been changed so many times who knows if it is not all garbage? You know I read somehwere that some kid went to Barnes and Noble, the bookstore, and was kicked out because he put all the bibles in the fiction section… ßfunniest shit I have heard in a looong time. What I mean is, the origin of the story and the path it takes…I will illustrate: you know when you saw your buddy get into a fight at a party, and it was over pretty quick – maybe your buddy got in a few shots, and it got broken up, and someone at the party puked, and during the mayhem some shit got stolen? After the fight your buddy was scuffed up, and the other guy had a bloody nose. Well a week later some dude you do not know or recognize comes up and asks you if you heard about a huge heist at a bar, and the dudes got caught, so they tied them up and beat the shit out of them, but one puked and had to go to the E.R. because he was gasping his
last breath, and the other had a bloody nose?See what I mean? You know this shit happens.

Religion controls people, I understand the desire to strive to live a better life, but it can be done without religion. To really believe that God, or a being, or the creator that manifests that which we call reality, is so simplistic and petty, is astonishing. We have been given all the tools we need to advance our spirituality, religion restricts it. It is not wrong to deny what you feel is pleasurable or right. Why is sex so taboo? It is natural, we are supposed to do it, that is why it feels good, we need food, so it tastes good, just like the apple Adam ate. Why do these feel good, much like the wonderful feelings I receive when I am in love? That beautiful sensation that stops time, (a Zen master once told me that we as people must strive to dwell in the area between thoughts) that is natural, that is God. Oneness. Some of the arguments I read spoke of how there is only one god. Again you are taking this literally, see what it really means. We ARE all one, and that is god. But what God is entirely another conversation. I wanted to address religions, despite the original thread asking who is Allah? Mostly because I saw the chance to introduce a different realm of thinking. I do have my own theories, and what I wrote is what I believe – because I listened to my heart and paid close attention to what life was telling me. It is out there for all of us to see. Some time I would love to talk about my theory of attraction, and what gravity is etc. . .

Lastly, I understand the need for structure and balance in your life and if your religion gives that to you great, but there is much more to learn. I gave the bible a chance but my soul knew it was false. The messages were real, but the course of action in which people chose to follow their religions really turned me away from its addicting madness. Just look at cells in nature, in your body...ALL ONE...WE ARE ALL ONE... The base for all truth in this universe is one word: unity.

Let your soul (GOD) lead your life -- we receive what we put out, want to screw a chick? Not married? WHO THE FUCK MADE THESE FUCKED UP RULES? I know what I feel inside and I act on it, and that is real, that is GOD.
It is the TRUTH INSIDE ALL OF US... You do not need some book to tell you what God is -- God is not some powerful entity that demands to be worshipped, that plays games on people to test their faith, or even a jealous God...Or how about the FEAR of God...WTF?? God is not fear -- god is love. THAT UNITY. The oneness....again like cells...in your body you have a bunch of different cells, but they are all part of YOU

Now think bigger...think earth...a cell...now are you starting to realize?
I can answer most if not all questions that opposing view might have. From homosexuality, to dinosaurs, to marriage.. In fact I will briefly explain
marriage:
Ok this one is easy -- the Jews were strict in their beliefs that man should be married, NO matter if it was even love... and a lot of what Constantine did (writing the new testament) was easy -- he just went with what the majority of what people were thinking at the time (before Quantum theory) and he went with the winning side...sadly... So he immortalized Jesus (WHO was just a man) and then mixed Most of the Pagan beliefs into the new Christianity.. Then he did a good job of convincing everyone that Pagans were devil worshippers (classic racket -- fear -- always works – what I have been saying the whole time) but in reality pagans worshipped the sun (where do you think "Sunday" came from LOL) And there are MANY other mixtures of the old pagan beliefs in current Christianity and most do not even realize it. The church wants conformity (AKA SHEEP to control) this world is evolving, but not from the conformists. Be a trendsetter, maybe as an attitude or belief -- Do NOT conform, instead CREATE....this world is what YOU MAKE of it... Not some old ass man in a chair getting pissed at you because you jerked off in the shower...Be a sheepherder, not a sheep.

If this offended any of you GOOD.. It means it has awakened a part of your soul that desperately wants to live. Go out in this world and have some fun, be as free as you can be, watch the world around you, it teaches you everything about life; all you have to do is tune in. The universe is governed by laws, they can be bent but not broken, understand that the laws apply to everything, because most things mimic each other to some degree, like Newton’s Law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Do not confine that law to forces of gravity only!! How about what you put out into the universe / life you get back? And vice versa? A lot of the laws of this universe can be seen in such alternate ways, and once you begin to see how deep this goes, you will realize the foolishness of religions.

Not only can religion poison life, but also it can be seen as immoral, so perhaps the world would be better off without religion. Replace religious faith with inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas. Then we will be getting somewhere as an advanced species.

pdogg7
05-01-2007, 02:57 PM
Ivan,
It seems are two post have somethings in common. You and Conan should check this site out. danceofecstasy com. I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

sablya
05-01-2007, 04:56 PM
Sounds like Marxism to me. On the one hand, if there is nothing after death, and we are but material things (cells), then there is nothing to fear. Unfortunately, that belief undermines itself. Without going into too much detail, if we are only material then there is no foundation for human dignity -- if we came from some primordial sludge and we're going to return to a pile of dust then what does it matter, ultimately, if you commit atrocities against other soon-to-be piles of dust? The fact that you don't believe it is okay (I hope) to murder is special pleading within your worldview and pointedly points to something with which your ideas cannot be reconciled.

You judge those who use religion for personal gain. Thus you have a standard that says some things are right and other things are wrong. But your willingness to throw away the baby with the bathwater leaves you with both feet planted firmly in mid-air. You've given up the ground you need to stand on to judge. You've pulled the rug out from under your own feet. If you are correct that we are a collection of cells and there is no God, then whatever anyone decides to do is as equally good as any other thing.

On the other hand, the presence of fear does not necessarily mean that religion is false, even if some misuse fear for personal gain. If there is really something to fear then fear is your friend. It's not just the uncertainty of what to expect after death. There is the historical fact of the death and resurrection of Jesus that points to a coming judgment. If God is THAT serious about sin that He would punish His own Son, then you can be 100% certain He will judge those who reject His great offer of salvation.

kawasaki1
05-01-2007, 09:27 PM
Nice Ivan, long, but a good read.............

pete999
05-02-2007, 12:12 PM
great post ivan...just to add...

20.000 children die every day from famine and thirst (according to UNICEF)

i dont know if anybody here has been truly hungry/starving...not just for a few days but constantly...i was hungry during the wars in my country and maybe starving (zero food & drinking rainwater and moss) for a brief period say 2-3 weeks...

i know the suffering of these children but i lived it for only a few weeks...because of what i know im sure than there is no god...

no god i would want/like/approve would let this happen to innocent children...if god is looking to "judge" then great!...come "judgement day" he can start from himslef...

mojo jojo
05-02-2007, 07:59 PM
Sounds like Marxism to me. On the one hand, if there is nothing after death, and we are but material things (cells), then there is nothing to fear. Unfortunately, that belief undermines itself. Without going into too much detail, if we are only material then there is no foundation for human dignity -- if we came from some primordial sludge and we're going to return to a pile of dust then what does it matter, ultimately, if you commit atrocities against other soon-to-be piles of dust? The fact that you don't believe it is okay (I hope) to murder is special pleading within your worldview and pointedly points to something with which your ideas cannot be reconciled.


If you truly believe that if there is no god there is no reason for human dignity then you yourself must be a bad person who is only pretending to be good because god is watching you.

I can't even believe you would say "if we came from some primordial sludge and we're going to return to a pile of dust then what does it matter, ultimately, if you commit atrocities against other soon-to-be piles of dust?".
Maybe it would matter simply because it is wrong. We were born and we have a right to live our lives and nobody but the individual should decide if their own lives should be ended.

Last I checked your god was omniscient? So if that is the case and you believe what you said then deep down in your heart you are a bad person that is simply afraid of punishment and god knows it. In your case god may let you in but he probably won't have much if any respect for you.

Conan21
05-03-2007, 12:18 AM
I like the way you think. Very good questions and view points and I like the logical conclusions you came up with.

However, I think even you do not realize how much Paganism is mixed into the New testament. If you understand it you can see into the future and know what is coming. It is both terrifying and yet exciting.

One thing that I disagree with you is that saying the Old Testament is a book of fables and tall tails. Very untrue there. The old Testament has more hiddent knowledge in there than you could imagine. It is just manipulated and edited by Jewish and Christian leaders to suit their needs.

You are correct when Yahweh said. "I am a Jealous God. Worship no other gods but me"....along with all the other questions you raised.

Now stop and ask yourself this question:
What if this Yahweh character isn't really 'GOD' in the manner which I think of "GOD"?
We were in fact created in the image of god. But then who is god and is he Really "GOD".
Don't be so quick to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve, the Serpant, and the Tree of knowledge. A very symbolic story is told there.
Did you ever find it strange that in the Old testament god was loving and kind and the next time he was wrathful and mercyless? Kind of like he had split personalities, Bi-Polar?
If you look into where the stories of the Old Testament originate from and read the unedited version, your questions will be answered concerning this.

P.S--is this the Ivan from Promuscle? If so, I think you posted a thread on there about Creationism of man Based off of DNA findings by scientists concerning people, certain animals, and plants. If you find out the above information, This question will be answered for you as well.

Conan21
05-03-2007, 12:43 AM
Alot of your ideas are the fundamental roots of the Church of Satan and the Satanic Bible. LOL The idea of indulging and taking pleasure in natural urges. They believe you should persue what ever gives you pleasure regardless if it is something concidered 'good' or 'bad'. They believe Man is just and animal who will not be judged once he dies and should enjoy it while he is alive. Although most people who are part of this group are fundamentally bad people and who use this religion and philosophy to help justify their evil ways. The majority of the regular followers are hidden from many truths just as other religions do.

Vehe
01-11-2008, 03:51 AM
Religion is sure a scam, it always was! digg history and find for yourself.
But God, according to new quantum physics theories can be achieved by anyone. Not in a sense of making miracles but being everywhere in the universe at the same time.
I'll try to explain, everthing in nature and the universe is a duality (proven by quantum physics), for everything positive there is a negative, like yin/yang, electron/positron, good/evil, matter/anti-matter, etc,etc. But if you were to take all the negative or positive from something it would become 100% pure energy and not be bound by the laws of physics. In reality something that has zero mass will encounter zero resistence, so you could be anywhere in the universe at the same time. The only reason light doesn't travel faster is because of resistance, else it would have infinite speed. : ) So science these days is proving that God being everywhere at the same time is actually correct.
Another funny fact: if you take for example a electron away from the positron and put it on the other side of the universe, if you touch one the other will react at the same time billions of light years away. : )

so, if you want real religion try Budism / Yoga or other spiritual ways. It is said the true masters achieve singularity and can be everywhere at the same time. ;)