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Old 02-21-2006, 07:00 AM   #1
S.T.D.

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Dear Friends,

Let us Congratualate Dsath for bringing the Truths against the Fradulants of FSG-Bismala.

Dsath for you my next post will deal with dating of Tholkappiyam, whose dating are Unanimous to Uppuma', however I do not agree with every word of abuse by Uppuma.

Many persons with Tendentious motives right books, but their Total concept tend to be no on the Correct side of Truth, i.e., the case with the Fraudulent claims of Aryan and Dravidians coming from outside, and the Truth as I give-Historian M. G. S. Narayanan, who finds in Sangam literature .. ..
no trace of another, indigenous, culture other than what may be designated as tribal and primitive. And concludes :
The Aryan-Dravidian or Aryan-Tamil dichotomy envisaged by some scholars may have to be given up since we are unable to come across anything which could be designated as purely Aryan or purely Dravidian in the character of South India of the Sangam Age. In view of this, the Sangam culture has to be looked upon as expressing in a local idiom all the essential features of classical Hindu culture. M. G. S. Narayanan, The Vedic-Puranic-Shastraic Element in Tamil Sangam Society and Culture, in Essays in Indian Art, Religion and Society, p. 128.

Nilakanta Sastri goes a step further and opines,
There does not exist a single line of Tamil literature written before the Tamils came into contact with, and let us add accepted with genuine appreciation, the Indo-Aryan culture of North Indian origin.

The falsehood of a Separate Tamil NanMarai was well ANALYSED BY Communist Scholar V.Krishnamurthy, and I quote from his article.

தமிழகத்தின் அண்மைக் கால வரலாற்றில் பிராமணர்- பிராமணர் அல்லாதார் இயக்கத்திற்குப் பெரும் பங்கு உண்டு. இதன் தொடக்கத்தைச் சோழர் காலம் தொட்டு காணுதல் கூடும். அக்காலத்தில் பிராமணர்களைப் போன்றே வேளாளர்களும் சமுதாயத்தின் மேல்தட்டில், சாதி ஏணிப்படியில் மேல் இடத்தைப் பெற்று இருந்தனர்.

பிரமதேயம் எனப்படும் நிலங்கள் எவ்வாறு பிராமணர்களுக்கு நிவந்தங்கள் அளிக்கப் பட்டனவோ அவ்வாறே வேளாளர்களுக்கு வெள்ளான் வகை நிலங்கள் மன்னர்களால் அளிக்கப் பட்டன. இது இவ்விரு வகுப்பினரின் மேலாண்மையைக் காட்டுகிறது. இத்தகைய சமூக, பொருளாதார நிலை இவ்விரு சமூகத்தின் இடையே கலாச்சாரப் போட்டியையும் கருத்துப் போராட்டத்தையும் உருவாக்கியது. தத்துவத்துறையிலும் இப்போராட்டம் வெளியாயிற்று. நிலவ்ய்டமை முறைவலுப் பெற்றுவிட்ட பிற்காலத்தில் சைவ நூல்களும் அதனடியாக சைவசித்தாந்தம் தோன்ற்லாயின.

பாரதத்தின் பல்வேறு பகுதிகளில் தத்துவ விசாரணை என்பது பிராமணரின் ஏகபோகமாகத் திகழ்ந்தபோது தமிழகத்தில் வேளாளர்களும் தத்துவ விசாரணையில் ஈடுபட்டனர். அதன் விளைவாகவே தமிழில் சைவசித்தாந்தம் உருவாக்கப் பட்டது.
ஆங்கிலேயர் வருகைக்குப் பின் இவ்விரு வகுப்பினரிடையே முரண்பாடு மேலும் முற்றியது. அறிவு ஜீவிகளான இம்மேல்தட்டு வகுப்பினரிடையே ஆங்கிலேய அரசுப் பதவிகளில் அமர்வதில் கடும் போட்டி ஏற்பட்டது. இம் முரண்பாடு பிராமணர் எதிர்ப்பௌ இயக்கமாக உருவெடுத்தது, நீதிக்கட்சியில் சங்கமம் அயிற்று. பின்னர் ஆரிய-திராவிட இனப் பாகுபாடாகப் பரிணாமம் பெற்றது.

இவ்வியக்கத்தின் கொள்கைகளை கலாச்சார, சமய மட்டத்தில் பிரச்சார்ம் செய்யும் பணியில் பல பிராமணர் அல்லாத அறிஞர்கள்- குறிப்பாக வேளாளர் சமூகத்தைச் சேர்ந்தவர்கள் ஈடுபட்டனர். அவர்களில் கா.சு.பிள்ளை, மறைமலை அடிகள், சிவராச பிள்ளை போன்றோர் தத்துவத் துறைகளில் பிராமண ஆதிக்கத்தை குறைக்கும் நோக்கோடு தமது ஆய்வுகளை இவர்கள் நடத்தினர்.

ஆனால் சைவ சமய குரவர்களாகிய அப்பர், சம்பந்தர், சுந்தரர் மற்றும் வாசகர் ஆகியோரின் தேவாரம், திருவாசகம் ஆகிய நூல்களில் வேதங்களையும் அந்தணர்களையும் போற்றியிருந்தும், நெடுங்காலாமாகவே அவ்வேதங்களே, தத்துவங்களின் மூல நூல்கள் எனக் கருதப் பட்டு வரும் மரபும் இவ்வறிஞர்களது பணிக்கு இடைஞ்சல் ஆயிற்று.
" வேறு விதமாக சொல்வதானால் ரிக், யஜுர், ஸாமம், அதர்வணம் அகிய நான்கு வேதங்களும் ஆரியர்களின் படைப்புகளே என்ற உண்மையும், பிராமண்ர்களே காப்பாளர்கள் என்ற யதார்த நிலையும் அவர்களது நோக்கிற்கு இடையுறாக வந்தது.

இந்த இடையூறை கடக்க முன்பு எப்போதும் இல்லாத புது கொள்கைகளை நீதிக்கட்சியின் கருத்துக்காவலர்களாகிய இந்த அறிஞர்கள் (கா.சு.பிள்ளை, மறைமலைஅடிகள், சிவராசபிள்ளை) உருவாக்கினர். அதாவது வேதங்கள் என்றும் மறை நூல்கள் என்றும், சைவ குரவர்களால் குறிப்பிடப்படுபவை வடமொழி வேதங்கள் அல்லவென்றும், வடமொழி வேதங்கள் தோன்றுவதற்கு முன்பே தமிழில் வேதங்கள் தோன்றி விட்டன என்றும் அவற்றை கண்ட வடமொழியார், தெளிவாக சொல்வதானால் பிராமணர்கள் அவற்றை வடமொழியில் பெயர்த்துக் கொண்டார்கள் என்றும் கூறத் தலைப் பட்டனர். அவ்வாறாயின் அத்தமிழ் வேதங்கள் இன்று உள்ளனவா என்ற வினாவிற்கு அவை கடல்கோளால் அழிந்துபோயின என்றும் அவர்கள் கூறினர். எக்கூற்றுக்கள் முற்றிலும் வரலாற்று விரோதமானவை; விஞ்ஞானபூர்வ மற்றவை என அறிஞர்களால் தள்ளப் பட்டன, என்றாலும், அவற்றின் தாக்கம் இன்று வரை தமிழக மக்களிடையே நீடித்திருக்கிறது எனின் மிகையாகாது. பக் 52-53; ஆய்வு வட்டக் கட்டுரைகள்.;வெ.கிருஷ்ணமூர்த்தி


தமிழில் எழுதப்பட்ட வேதங்கள் அல்லது நான்மறை நூல் (ரிக், யஜூர், சாம, அதர்வண வேதங்களின் தமிழ் மூல நூல்கள்) கடல் கோளில் அழிந்து போயின என்றாலும் அவற்றின் பெயர்கள் முறையே தைத்திரீயம்; பௌடிகம்,தலவகரம்; அதர்வணம் ஆகும் என கா.சு.பிள்ளை, தனது நூல்களில் குறிப்பிட்டுள்ளார்.

இந்த நான்மறைகள் எவை என விளக்கத் திரு நான்மறை விளக்கம் என்ற நூலையே கா.சு.பிள்ளை எழுதியிருக்கிறார். தமது கூற்றை நிருபிக்க தொல்காப்பியத்தில் பாயிர உரையில் நச்சினார்க்கினியர் கூறியுள்ள விளக்கத்தை ஆதாரமாகக் காட்டுகிறார்.

இது குறித்து கா.சு. பிள்ளையின் ஆய்வுமுறை என்ற எனது கட்டுரையில் ஏற்கனவே நான் ஆராய்ந்துள்ளேன். இக்கட்டுரையில் தமிழ் வேதங்கள் எனக்
கா.சு. பிள்ளையால் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டுள்ள பவுடிகம் தைத்திரீயம்; தலவகரம் ஆகியவை யாவை என்றும் இவைகள் உண்மையில் தமிழ்வேதங்கள் தானா என்றும் ஆராய்வோம்.( இப்பெயர்களே தமிழ்ச் சொற்கள்தானா என்பது வேறு விஷயம்).

The Author analyses the above names usage in Tamil Old Lit, and finds the earliest in a Copper Plate Grants called as Parvathiva sekara puram copper plates issued by Aay King Kokkarunan Thadakkan giving Paddy Grants to the Practices of Paviziyam, Thaththiriyam and Thalavarkarams. This Pandiyan Copper Plate is earlier than Nachinaarkiniyar writing the Commentary for Tholkappiyam.

Communist Scholar Mr.V.Krishnamurthy then goes on to analsyse these with the Assistance of S.C.Bannerjis Dharma Sutras- A study in that Origin and Development and finds from Veda developed Samhitas and Sutras.
Paviziyam refers to Apasthamba Sutra from Yajur Vedic School.
Thaththiriyam is from Yajur Vedic School, i.e., Thaththiriya Prmana- and its brach Vaikaana dharma Sutra
Thalavarkara is from Sama Veda School,, referring Gowthama Dhara Sutra.

Finally Concludes- எல்லாவற்றிற்கும் மேலாக தமிழில் நான்கு வேதங்கள் வடமொழி வேதங்களுக்கு முன்னரே இருந்தன எண்றும் அவை முறையே பவுடிகம், தலவாகரம், தைத்ரேயம் மற்றும் அதர்வணம் எண்றும் கா.சு.பிள்ளை போன்ற தமிழ் வேத ஆர்வாளர்கள் கூற்று அர்த்தமற்றது எனவும் துணியலாம். THIS ARTICLE COMES IN Page 51-65. அ

For the benefit of friends, earlier some Scholars tried to claim that Nanmarais referred to Tamil அறம், பொருள், இன்பம் மற்றும் வீடு, but all this fell flat when TholKappiayam was shown
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Now for the benefit of Doubters who have been always cheated by ThaniTamil movement Scholars- Devaneya Pavanar in his book Oppiyan Mozhi Nuul written in 1939, has analysed the same and came to the same conclusion, of the fact that Nachinarkiniyar claim of Tholkappiyam being written before Vedas being written is just a wrong Prideful claim and the names Paviziyam, Thaththiriyam, Thalavarkarams and Atharvanam are Part of Indian Vedas. Devanyan when this Meaningless book of KA.SU.Pillai- ThiruNanMarai Vilakkam raised a controversy has to give clarification

நால்வேதம் அல்லது நால்மறை, ஆரங்கம் ஆகமம் என்பன எல்லாம் ஆரிய நூல்களே என்பதும், திருக்குறள் தவிர இப்போதுள்ள பண்டை நூல்களெல்லாம் அந்தணர் என்பதும் பிரமணரையே குறிக்கும் என்பது சரியே.
பக்க- 102 தமிழர் மதம்.தேவநேயன்.


Many Superstitions go when the Light of Truth by Real Research is brought, and Shouting from Roof Tops the Old Lies repeatedly would only show these with meaningless Superstitions and their Insanity to the World.


Rubbish! Please refer to my much earlier posts.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:00 AM   #2
Fegasderty

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dear fsg,

is surprised by u carrying caste surname and quoting link to it in tamil lit. in other threads.

your speculative hypothesis, but can you please quote tamil teaching universities who claim this.

how do you date tholkappoam and kumari kandam flood
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:00 AM   #3
PhillipHer

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FSG: Time and again, you have begun your posts by wounding other people's sentiments! This has to stop. While what you post has a lot of meaning and content, this constant belittling of others is totally and wholly unacceptable. It is also highly disappointing that such a mature individual like you would resort to such unwarranted, malicious and highly provocative statements like

Since Vedhic pratogonists continue their misinterpretation and foolish handiwork as their forefathers did earlier with repeated lies Common decency and the Hub policies both require that you desist from such accusations.

I expect you to edit your post and continue with your otherwise mature postings.
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Old 06-20-2006, 07:21 AM   #4
brraverishhh

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Default NAAN MARAI
NANN MARAI

Dear Friends,

I wanted to write about Nannmarai while I deal with Indian ancient history after sometime. Since repeated lies against tamil literature & tamil traditions are spread out that they have been derived from Vedhic traditons in various threads as was done for the past 1000 years by wishful thinkers, I write here about Nannmarai.

Two logical questions we can ask.

1.Do tholkappiam payiram say Rig, Yasur, Sama, Atharvana Vedhams to specify Nannmarai?

2.Is there any need mentioning about Chathur Vedhas which contain only prayer hyms and ritual hyms in a Grammar book meant only for Grammar ?

The answers are no & no need. Let us go back to some historical background.

All of the explanatory notes including Ilampuranar & Perasiriyar for Tholkappiam belongs to 900-1000 ACE or even later. During that time Cholas ruled almost South India with Chalukkian( Karnataka) connections. This is the peak period of Vedhic Culture.

Kalabrar-West Vadukus (Kannada) Washed out tamil land from 300 ACE to 600ACE. During 300 BCE East Vaduku -Telugus captured North East Tamil land called Thondai Mandalam. The inter complications and rivalry between these two Vadukus put an end to Kalabrar rule in TamilNadu who were jain followers.(1)

East Vadukus copied all tamilian arts & culture and created artificial Sanskrit language from Prahritham in Tamil Krantha Script since Sanskrit has no script at all. All tamil akamas translated into Sanskrit.(2)

With Chalukkian and East Vadukus influence, tamil Cholas regained power in Tanjore. Culturally they followed Vadukus. By having marital relationship (marriage) with Chalukkian ladies, Cholas became Chalukkia-Cholas.(3)

During this period thousands of Vaduku kannada Poosaris(Brahmins) & Teluku Poosaris From Godavery & Thungapaththirai river banks namely Jaththi sarman & Janga sarman heritage migrated towards Cauveri river banks of tamil Nadu and replaced tamil Valluva kanikaiyan / Uchavan / Paarpan and turned as new Parpaans with Akarakarams.(4) & (5).

This is evidenced even now by their presence in and nearly 75 % of Brahmins of Cauvery banks & Palaru banks (a) SriRangapattanam of Bangalore,(b) Srirangam of Thiruchy,(c) Kumbakonam, (d) Mayiladuthurai (e) Kanchipuram have either Telugu / Kannada as their mother tongue. Traditional links among Thiruchy, Bangalore, Vijayawada Brahmins still prevails.

Dravidaththin Thiru vilakku (Dravidian lantern), Puratchi Thalaivi (Revolutionary Head), Chinthanai selvi (Great think tank)-Note : awarded by Dr. Kalaignar Mu. Karunanidhi- present Chief Minister of TamilNadu- in her SuryaGandhi films 100th day celebrations where Thanthai Periyar was also present) & Dr. Amma the former CM of Tamil Nadu Ms. J. Jayalithas family ancestry brethren & blood relations are living in these three cities. This is wonderful evidence for the above .

The migrated Poosaris copied, inverted, misinterpreted & spread the already existing tamil arts and knowledge preservation into their fold. For example, Akathumam , Sirpam, Uvaniyavu, Araniyam & Marai was the pattern existed in tamil land. But These vadukus changed This pattern squarely as Vedham, Araniyam, Upanisham, Sirpam & Akamam in opposite way (6) & (7)

New theories, new explanations for old sankam poetries were created. Lot of insertions of fake meaning made in Second Sankam Tholkappiam & Third Sankam literature. For Example, Erayanar Akapporul Grammar (300 ACE) Talks about the rules denoting the love between human male and female. But its explanatory note written after several centuries explains the meaning as the love between God and human beings.(8)

We have to inspect the meaning of Nannmarai with this background.

Naan does not mean Naanku- four always. It has other meaning also. Naan also means Thodakkam, Thotru-vai, Moolam (beginning / origin).

Naan means I a first person who is the beginning of any conversation / sound / word.

Nal / nalu in verbial form means, Thonguthal- Hanging from a base / origin.

Naandu / Naattu means create a base. The phrases like Kodi Naattu, Naandu Eranthan will give us some light in the meaning.

Naanilam does not mean four lands but only means Adi nilam- origin of land (world).

Naa for tongue named so because it is the cause for the beginning of any word / seems to be hanging from mouth.. It also means Vazhi-way in which the way is the principal / basic for any lead / travel.

Naavai- means Ship which is using sea way as a base. Voyage English word from this root only.

Depending on the word that come to join, Naal shall change its course.

Example : Naar Chol, Naan Marai, Naal Vedham

Naal & Naan specifically denote the meaning of Base / origin (Moolam / Thodakkam)

Some Examples in Third Sankam Tamil literature :

1. NATT-IK kolappattar Nanmai Elarayin
Katti kalaithu mena Venda- Pazhamozhi 45.

Here, Nattik kolappattar means a person of reputation as a base.

2. NAAR Kathiyum Thunba Navai theerththal Venduvaan
Par Kathiyum Parpada Arainthu - Eelaathi

Here Naar Kathi means the root / origin of destiny

3. NAAL vaik Kari ( Thirukkovayar 55) here Naal vai means Mouth Hanging from an origin

Kari means an animal with black colour like carbon colour Elephant.

4. Akaliru Visumbin NAAL Pola ( Malai padu kadaam 100)

Here, Visumbu means sky and NAAL means a star which is hanging in the sky-a base for star.

5. NAAL Aarum Aarai Nani sirithai Eppuranum
Melaru Melurai Chorinum - Naaladiyar 383 Porutpal 39.

Here, Naal Aarum Aarai means Thodakka vazhiyae Vazhiyaka- The beginning way as way and not four ways.

6. Malai thaama Valayudan NAATRI
Virunthupadak Kidantha Arunthozhil Arankaththu

Here, Valayudan Naatri means Lamp hanging from base. Epic Silappathikaram.

7. Kamba Ramayanam is famous among masses for its word usage.

(a) Muzhai NAAL Aravu- 5812

Here, Naal Aravu means Thonkum Pampu- Snake Hanging from base.

(b)Val Sila Thunivana Vayirukal Velippada
NAAL Sila Kudarana Nakazhvana sila - 7992

Here, NAAL sila Kudarana- Kudal Thongiyathu Hanging of Abdomen intestine

(c)Namak kadal pal yiyam NAAL Kadal
Melum Aarppa - 8157

Here, Naal Kadal Melum Aarppa means Adik kadal Ezhunthu Vanthathu- Waves of base sea come top

Many times Kamba Ramayanam uses Naal Nilam which means adi nilam-the world.

(d) Nattam Vem kanal Pozhithara
NAAL NILAM Thadavi - 514
(e) Thaniyan NAAL NILAM Thankiyathu
Avariku ithu Aakatho? - 1441

Many times Kamba Ramayanam speaks about flowers which are hanging.

(f) NAAL Nira Nalir Valli Hanging Alli flower - 2105

(g) NAAL Nira Surumbum Vandum - Surumbu means flower - 4279

(h) Kombu oththana NAAL Olir Kole Vayirak
Kambak KARI Nintrathu Kandanamal

Olir Kole Vayirak Kambak Kari means An elephant having Lighting Sphere like stomach NAAL means hanging.

One more crucial poetry that I want to bring to the attention of readers notice from Kamba Ramayanam in which Naal Marai presents.

Muthia NAAL MARAI
Kozhunthu Mel padar tharak
Kolu Kombu Ayinan - 253

Here, Naal MARAI Kolunthu means Hanging flower Marikozhunthu. Blind Vedhic Protagonists may mean illogically & unmeaningfully even this as four Vedhas ! who knows !

Hence, Naan / Naal means Moolam / origin / base. NAAN MARAI means Moola Marai and not four Vedhas.

Earlier in Tamil is elder than Sanskrit Thread I have clearly stated verse by verse Tholkappiam Marai does not mean Vedhas.

Naanmarai in Tholkappiam Payiram means Moola Marai and this was INTHIRAM created during second sankam literature which plunged into sea disaster. Mathematics, Astronomy & Medicine, Science & Anatomy theories were mentioned in Inthiram. Many Siddha books talks about this INTHIRAM quoting their verses. I may write about them in details in future.

There was Moola marai in tamil and Othuvars were there. This is specified in Epic Silappathikaram as,

VANTAMIZH MARAYORKU Vaanurai Koduththa
Thindiral Neduvel Cheralar Kandukalai, -60

Which talks about NedunCheralathan who gave food and shelter to Tamil Maraiyor

Tholkappiam payiram says , Aram Karai Navin NAANMARAI Muttriya

Aram Virtue / Ethics / code of conduct
Karai Shore
Navin- Vazhi (way), muthalakak konda (firstly)

NANMARAI Moola marai
Muttriya Mudintha (end)

The exact meaning is,The Grammar has been written in such a way that the end chapter / theme is Moola marai (the origin / base hidden thing) which is the path of shore of ethics.

Porulathikaram is the end Chapter of Tholkappiam.

Chidambaram Annamalai University Thokai Akarathi (dictionary) Edited by Dr.S. Meyyappan says Porul means Aram,porul,Enbam & Veedu.(9)

Tholkappiam specifies this meaning of Porulin poetry 374.

Pokkaru Marabin PORUL enappaduvathu,
Nokkarum VEEDU Nuvatchi sellamayin,
ARAM PORUL ENBAM Akum Matrathu-ro
Akanum puranum Entru A-yiru Patrai
Vakaipada Vantha Vazhi nalam Thazhiech
CHEYYULIDA VAYIR Pulliya neriththae.

Meaning : In poetry, The theme / content (porul) shall be Aram (Virtue), Porul (Wealth) & Enbam (Pleasure) and these three can be in terms of Human emotions (akam) & human experiences (puram)

It clearly specifies that Veedu(peacefulness) which is meant beyond description remains beyond human matters. There is no Akam & puram classification in Veedu.

Tholkappiam Porulathikaram talks about these four contents elaborately.

During 400 ACE Bavananthi Munivar made Nannul an another grammar book which follows Tholkappiam wordings & rules most of the times.

In Nannul Payiram 10,

Aram, Porul , Enbam, Veedu enum NAAL PORUL adaithal nool payanae

Here, Naal Porul means moola porul (main theme / content ).

HENCE, NAANMARAI DOES NOT MEAN NANKU MARAI BUT MOOLA MARAI & WHEREVER WE FIND NAANMARAI IN TAMIL LITERATURE WE CAN FIT THIS MEANING.

Nowhere in tamil literature four types of Marais specified. This means only Moola marai and not Nanku marai. In Irayanar Akapporul the word Arumarai is mentioned. Here also no number. The Nanmarai contains Porul as Aram, Porul, Enbam & Veedu.

As usual the foolish Vaduku poosaris thought that Aram, porul, Enbam & Veedu the root matter (Moola porul) as four divisions (numbers) of Marai and organized the scattered hymns all over North India into four Vedhas (the word derived from tamil Vei+tham- in which the root Vei means hide) and akamas copied from tamil Akaththumas & 18 puranas from tamil siva & Mayon (Vinnava) culture. I may write about this later in relevant thread.

Kings were Vaduka (or Vaduka influenced) kings in medieval period & they supported Prahritham & Sanskrit which was alienated artificially from common people. Propoganda was made that it was Devabhasa and was not meant for Common people. Common people psychologically became inferior and pathetic tamil pandit(her)s started comparing tamil with unreachable Sanskrit maintained by Sankrit Bandits (Pandither - of course) . This caused all the ills to society & true history.

When Chathur Vedhas was propogated by hothas, Tamil Othuvars created Tamil Nanmarai and used to call them Marai Nanku after 500 ACE (thevaram period) leaving the ancient meaning of terms ARUMARAI / NAANMARAI / MOOLAMARAI.

1000 ACE Explanatory notes exploited the original meaning of sankam literature wordings like Marai, Arumarai & Naanmarai.

Since, no single evidence identified regarding the Vedhic culture presence before common era, Vedhic protagonists exploiting these words in tamil literature with evil design.

As I explained in Tamil is much elder than Sanskrit thread, Inthiran, Varunan, Sivan were gods of Tamil people. The presence of these god names in Greek literature will not witness for Vedhic culture.

Tamil traditions were fabricated as modified , rather, fascism culture (Vedhic Culture) by vadukus in Indian subcontinent. The direction as according to History is from tamil to Sasnkrit and not vice versa. The glorious part of tamil culture thus was demolished by Vedhic culture and gave India to downward path in the world scenario and lot of invasions after 800 ACE were possible due to this.

The first ever civilized people in the world now with multiplied population are living as secondary citizens all over the world while inside their own country as under-developing begging dogs.

References :

(1) South Indian Inscriptions Volume. XXIII, No. 580 (Nandaluru, Rajampettai Taluk, Kadappa Dist.) One such conflict explained in that.
(2) Koyilkalil Chentamil, Samaskritham, (Essay), Thinamani, 28.11.1998
(3) The Cholas, page 110, K.A. Nilakanda Sastri.
(4)Epigraphica Indica, Vol. VIII, No.29, Page 290-296
(5) Sounth Indian Inscriptions, Vol II, Part III of 1895, Kasakkudi Pattayam.
(6) Same as (2)
(7) Kalappirar Atchiyil Tamilakam, by Mayilai . Seeni Venkidasamy, page 93-95, 166-68,114,160,162,164.
(8) Same as (7).
(9)Vetri Tamil Akarathi, Dr.S.Meyyappan.

f.s.gandhi
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:31 AM   #5
PhillipHer

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Since, no single evidence identified regarding the Vedhic culture presence before common era, Vedhic protagonists exploiting these words in tamil literature with evil design.
Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,


As I explained in Tamil is much elder than Sanskrit thread, Inthiran, Varunan, Sivan were gods of Tamil people.
So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!

I would be happy if you dont direct me to another post!
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Old 06-24-2006, 05:13 AM   #6
Fegasderty

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FSG: Time and again, you have begun your posts by wounding other people's sentiments! This has to stop. While what you post has a lot of meaning and content, this constant belittling of others is totally and wholly unacceptable. It is also highly disappointing that such a mature individual like you would resort to such unwarranted, malicious and highly provocative statements like

Since Vedhic pratogonists continue their misinterpretation and foolish handiwork as their forefathers did earlier with repeated lies
Common decency and the Hub policies both require that you desist from such accusations.

I expect you to edit your post and continue with your otherwise mature postings. I am sorry Mr. Badri. I am not targeting any individual or segments of individuals. I attack contents based.

Hereafter, I shall avoid those utterances.

I have edited my post.

f.s.gandhi
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Old 06-24-2006, 05:53 AM   #7
Beerinkol

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Dear Srivatsav,

Your queries and my replies here : I have not directed you to old posts. But I copy and paste here some of them.

"Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,"

Common Era generally specify after Jesus Christ's birth. BC-before christ: AC-After the death of Christ. Since, Christ belongs to one religion,Secular historiens specify Common Era & before common era etc.

I may write about the transformation of Tamil culture to Vedhic culture in "Vaduku Karunadar" thread which I find that topic is suitable historically.

Archestrated birthwise divisions and their stronghold is basic theme of Vedhic culture. To make this a social structure called "Akarakaram" is made and that too in south India. And by that economical pattern of society revolved around priests and kings where 80 % of masses got downtrodden. For details please wait for my future posts.

"So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!"


Inthran is pure tamil word used in Tholkappiam and prevailed in ancient tamil worship.

"Im' is the root as 'suttu oli' which means 'Kulir'(cool) and was used to specify substances of cool nature.

Intham - puli , Inthuli - Perumkayam, Inthul - nelli, Inthu - Mathi / Chanthiran , Inthanam - Kaadu , Inthalam - a Yazh instrument used in Marutham land. Maarutham is cool air and hence the land was named Marutham. Inthalam is also a raham from this Yazh.

'Im' turned 'Sam'- 'sim' produced santhanam, Santhu, sinthakam-pulia maram, Sinthu - a river , sinthooram- a tilak powder, sunthu- water and all specify cool nature.

Inthiran is the god of Marutham land specified in tholkappiam. 'Inthira vizha' was celebrated in kaveri river is silapapathikaram message.

Inthiran is the god of water land because water is cool in nature. Inthiran is also called Venthan. Varunan is god of sea land. 'Vari'
means kadal.

'Sinthu' river also might have been named from the word sunthu / sinthu. The word Inthiran turned 'Indra' in north India.

Inthran and Uruthran(ruthran) worship is prevailing in vedhas and is noted in Egypt civilization makes the vedhics claim so. Inthran along with Kanthu (kanthan) / pillar worship in Egypt only shows tamils culture and not Vedhic culture. Vedhic culture was influenced by tamil culture.

Tamil 'sivan' is from Tholkappiam 'Seyon' which means reddish angry man.

Tamil sea god Vaaranan / Varunan is from root Vari / Vaari which means Sea.

f.s.gandhi
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:28 PM   #8
NeroASERCH

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Dear Srivatsav,

Your queries and my replies here : I have not directed you to old posts. But I copy and paste here some of them.

"Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,"

Common Era generally specify after Jesus Christ's birth. BC-before christ: AC-After the death of Christ. Since, Christ belongs to one religion,Secular historiens specify Common Era & before common era etc.

I may write about the transformation of Tamil culture to Vedhic culture in "Vaduku Karunadar" thread which I find that topic is suitable historically.

Archestrated birthwise divisions and their stronghold is basic theme of Vedhic culture. To make this a social structure called "Akarakaram" is made and that too in south India. And by that economical pattern of society revolved around priests and kings where 80 % of masses got downtrodden. For details please wait for my future posts.

"So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!"


Inthran is pure tamil word used in Tholkappiam and prevailed in ancient tamil worship.

"Im' is the root as 'suttu oli' which means 'Kulir'(cool) and was used to specify substances of cool nature.

Intham - puli , Inthuli - Perumkayam, Inthul - nelli, Inthu - Mathi / Chanthiran , Inthanam - Kaadu , Inthalam - a Yazh instrument used in Marutham land. Maarutham is cool air and hence the land was named Marutham. Inthalam is also a raham from this Yazh.

'Im' turned 'Sam'- 'sim' produced santhanam, Santhu, sinthakam-pulia maram, Sinthu - a river , sinthooram- a tilak powder, sunthu- water and all specify cool nature.

Inthiran is the god of Marutham land specified in tholkappiam. 'Inthira vizha' was celebrated in kaveri river is silapapathikaram message.

Inthiran is the god of water land because water is cool in nature. Inthiran is also called Venthan. Varunan is god of sea land. 'Vari'
means kadal.

'Sinthu' river also might have been named from the word sunthu / sinthu. The word Inthiran turned 'Indra' in north India.

Inthran and Uruthran(ruthran) worship is prevailing in vedhas and is noted in Egypt civilization makes the vedhics claim so. Inthran along with Kanthu (kanthan) / pillar worship in Egypt only shows tamils culture and not Vedhic culture. Vedhic culture was influenced by tamil culture.

Tamil 'sivan' is from Tholkappiam 'Seyon' which means reddish angry man.

Tamil sea god Vaaranan / Varunan is from root Vari / Vaari which means Sea.

f.s.gandhi
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:46 PM   #9
brraverishhh

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Dear Friends,

What is Nan Marai in Sangam Lit.

Puram166. ¡ š! : ơ.
𧼡 : ﺡ Ţ. : š. Ш: š.

ȡ
Ӿ š ,
â â ,
ڽ this Song, in subsequent line refers the Presence of different belief groups. Now Painkat Parppan(Brahahmin- Siva continuously says- â- 2 x 2 = 4Vedas, which has 6 Braches and are 1.Siksha, 2. Chandas 3. Viyakarnam 4. Niruktham 5. Jothisham and 6. Kalpam. Are perfectly referred in the above song and these names are given in detail in Mankmekhalai
' ,
Ţ 쨸
Ţ¡ý Ӹ
ȡ ý ž
Ȣ'
ž ¢ Ţ

Now Vedics are split as 6 Philosophies-
1. Vaiseshikam - Ganathar(Author)
2. Niyayam - Gouthamar
3. Sankiyam - Kapilar
4. Yogam - Pathanjali
5. Mimamsaa - jaimini
6. Vethantham - Vetha Viyasa now all these have been referred with few author names in Manimekhalai.
վ Ȣ ǨŸ
ġ¾
¡¢ ŧʸ
ﺸ â , 27-080
ո ɧ
ɢ


ŧ ǨŸ'
Ţ ' '
š ξ


Vedas cannot be dated later than 1900BCE, by which time entire Saraswathi River has Dried up. John Marshall remarked in 1931, -
THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.

Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEE WHAT IS PARTICULARLY NON-ARYAN ABOUT THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.

Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization (Karachi & Islamabad : Oxford University Press & American Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1998) -MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ABSURD THEORY [OF AN ARYAN INVASION], BY POINTING OUT MISINTERPRETED BASIC FACTS, INAPPROPRIATE MODELS AND AN UNCRITICAL READING OF VEDIC TEXTS. HOWEVER, UNTIL RECENTLY, THESE SCIENTIFIC AND WELL-REASONED ARGUMENTS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN ROOTING OUT THE MISINTERPRETATIONS ENTRENCHED IN THE POPULAR LITERATURE.

Another example- The Unwanted item in India - the Caste system is put as Vedic -the Truth is the Opposite- as I QUOTE I put these from Dravidian protogonist Gilbert Slater
- who gives from Maxmuller, and I Quote from Tamil Translation by PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai.
Ţ Ȣ 츢 Ө žǢ ƨ¡ Ǣ ڸȾ? "" æĢ Ţġ. ﺢ š Ө ž Ǣ 򾨸 . ħ â Ƣ Ĩ ç; š, ո Ţ ; ¢ 즸 Ũ ӨȨ¡; 򾨸 š Ǹ Ţ ¡ Ȣ¢ 򾸡á 츢 ; Ȣ . м , Ǣ Ǣ Өȸ ȣ¡; ɢ Ȣ Ǣ¡ Ȣ¡; .. ... ܼ ¡. â Ƣ Ţ ţâ, ɢ ŢǢ ơ Ƣ Ө â Ȣ . çš, ŢŸ §š м ¢ â ġ âŢ츧š š ܼ ¡. ¡ ž ̧ ." Quote frm Maxmuler â áŢ Ҕ- , .Ш. 40,41.

Indian Culture and Civilisation is the Oldest and If Foreigners wrote meaninglessly, then the Indian by Birth, but Christian Fathers- and writers did it, and MahaKavi Bharati condemns it in his Short ARTICLE called

¡ Ǣĸ ç Ӿ Ө. Ţ . Ӿġ, Ȣ â. â측Ţ áŢ Ȣ â, Ţ ú 򧾺 Ȣ â â Ģ, â ¢ Ȣ 򾢧 ž ָȸ. 󨾸 ¢ θȡ , â (츢, ǡ Մ ¢ġ ) и Ţ š ָȡ. Ө â׸Ǣ Ǧġ θȡ. Ȣ âǡ Ţ. Barathiyar, Ψ-

Where as Thani- Tamil Scholars went on to go by the Jainistic Probaganda- that Silapathikaram and Kural are Jainistic, with very flimsy few picked verses. Even few went on to say that Marai or Vetham or Ooththu in Tholkappiyam, Sangam-Kural Manimekhalai could be some Non Existent Tamil Vedams etc., and The Missionary Motived Pavanar had to himself has to admit-
// " Nalvetham or Nanmarai, Arangam Agamam enbana ellam Arya Noolkale enbathum, Thirukural thavira ippothulla Pandai Noolkalellam Anthanar enbathum Brahmararie Kurikkum Enpathu Sariye. Page- 102 Tamilar Matham.//


Devapriya
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:27 AM   #10
Paul Bunyan

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From this stanza, (Puram 166) it is clear that the
word paarppaan can also refer to uurpaarppan, a person who looks after a village or region of several villages. The area referred to is puunjchARRuur.: onRu purintha iirirandin refers to aram, poruL, inpam, viidu the interplay of which is life. AaRu uNarntha oru muthunuul refers to an old Tamil nuul which explains the way of life. It may be an ethics book. Tamil language had many treatises and grammar books which have been lost. Arya Vedas had nothing to do with the situation and is out of place here.

Other matters have been replied to elsehwhere.
There is no need to consider Manimekhalai here as the stanza in Puram and Manimekhalai may not be of the same era.
As to Saraswathy River, I have given a fitting reply in Is Tamil derived from Sanskrit? thread, Please refer.
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:37 AM   #11
PhillipHer

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Devariya wrote:-

// վ Ȣ ǨŸ
ġ¾
¡¢ ŧʸ
ﺸ â , 27-080
ո ɧ
ɢ


ŧ ǨŸ'
Ţ ' '
š ξ//

Now you have been going round in this forum saying that the word Sivam is unknown to Sangam Poets. But you are quoting Puram 166 and Manimekhalai on the basis that they are of the same era and further your quotation contained the word "saivam" which is derived from "sivam or seyOn!!

Please stop contradicting yourself.
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Old 06-28-2006, 09:24 AM   #12
Lillie_Steins

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Solomon wrote:Vedas cannot be dated later than 1900BCE, by which time entire Saraswathi River has Dried up. John Marshall remarked in 1931,

If a devout christian makes a statement today like "I spoke with Jesus Christ and he guided me" than solomon would say that this statement cannot be dated later than 100 AD, what a great logic solomon, only *****'s like you can appreciate that!
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:00 AM   #13
Raj_Copi_Jin

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Dear G.V.

The contents - of your Thread and your last posting above - further confirms how the Tamil Saivaism and Tamil Language lost it's place in the Tamil Nadu temples. (very useful contribution).

It is very true that the term "Nan Marai'' should be correctly defined in the background of positive historical evidence.

Further even the term "Anthanar" too should be correctly defined with evidence, as God Siva of Saivaism is also referred to as "Anthanan" in Tamil Literature. Possibly for this reason the Saivite Priests of early Tamil Nadu who officiated religious ceremonies to God Siva was known as "Anthanar", which later became a term used for others too - when Saivite priests lost their control of the Siva Temples of Tamil Nadu. Even today we are aware of the existance of a class known as Saiva Kurukkals in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere, who could have been the decendents of the earlier outsted Tamil Anthanars (to be verified) of Tamil Nadu.

The term Athi-Saivar too should be defined correctly against positive evidence to bring forth more informations on them too. Further a research into the correct interpretation of the term "Paarpanar" in the earlier Tamil Nadu, too will be very useful.

It appears the meaning of many terms used much earlier in Saivite Religion of Tamil Nadu - to indicate various meanings, over a period time thereafter have been given new interpretations with the onslaughts of new religious and cultural waves from the north.

An indepth study on same has to be made, to correctly interpret the "Thamil Saivam (or Saivaism)", of Tamil Nadu.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:26 AM   #14
MannoFr

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Dear Friends,

I am happy enough to meet you again after a gap.

Historical research shows Naanmarai never specify four marais.

Pavanar says that Since Yasur & Sama Vedha hymns almost repeat the Rig Vedha hymns, Vedhic marais would have to be only two as Rig & Atharvana Vedhas.(1)

Atharvana vedha contains only manthras. But Rig Vedha condemns Manthras. Rig Vedha praises Inthira. But other Vedhas condemns Inthira. Rig Vedha praises pithir / Thenpulaththar. Other Vedhas condemns Yaman and pithirs. Pavanar further says that after learning manthras from tamil traditions Atharvana vedha had been made. 1/6 th of Atharvana vedha is repetition of Rig Vedha. The contradiction between Vedhas is due the insertions made later years and plagiarism of Vedhics from tamil traditions.(2)

Yasur Vedha contains ritual hymns which have to be murmured / rendered & Sama vedha contains songs which have to be sung during rituals and all of them are repetition of Rig Vedhic hymns.(3) Pavanar conforms that vedhas were only two.

Latest research & comparative analysis shows that Rig Vedha is nothing but Tamil Iynthiram which I may write in detail in some other thread.

Professor Ragav Iyengar conforms that during Alwar period in tamil land, Rig & Yasur Vedhas were called as Povuzhiyam and Thaithiriyam respectively.(4) He shows the following Thirumangai alwars wordings in support of his view.

Santhokan POVUZHIYANAI Thazhalompu
TAITHIRIYAN sama vedhi (5)

Santhoka POVUZHIYA THAI THIRIYA
Sama Vedhiyanae !, Nedumalae !. (6)

Pinkala Nigandu also says that Vedhas were two.

POWDIKA IRUKKU muthal Vedham Aakum
Erandam Vedham YASU THAITHIRIUM(7)

Thiru Ragava Iyengar further conforms through rock inscriptions of 8th & 9th Century ACE that the above two Vedha names are only available.

POVUZHIYA Suththiram(8), POVUZHIYA saranam , Thaithiriya saranam (9)

The above shows as I said earlier that without understanding the organized pattern of tamil marais, Vaduku Poosaris hurriedly divided and named their collections of Vedhas as four that too after 12th century ACE. The introductory poetry of Sri Villipuththurar Bharatham written in tamil (14th century ACE) says that that Bharatham is FIFTH Vedha .

A renowned scholar Makaral Karthikeya Muthaliyar conforms that NaanMarai only means Moolamarai and explains as follows.(10)

Nan marai = Nal + marai
Nal Mulai base or beginning
Nal + thu = Naaru = Mulai Young crop
Naru Natru Natrankal A young paddy crop field.
Naral mulaiththal beginning of growth
Naru manam a smell to specify the nature of good.
Nal- growing
Nal- Ver (root), mulai, Valarchi,Koormai (sharp), Nunmai (acute)

Scholar Poosai Subbiah Pillai further one step goes and says Vedhas are not marais (unwritten) but only murais (written) .(11)

Nachinarkiniyars commentary note for Tholkappiam payiram also conforms Tholakappiar timeline is much earlier than Vedha Viyasar.(12).

Tholkappiam Payiram says, Mayanka Marabin Ezhuththu murai Kaatti which means tamil has definite & undoubtful (for each sound) script during Tholkappiar times (1250 BCE) when no other Indian language has script.(13)

Dr. Kannaiyan (Chennai Emporium Chairman) in his book clearly has explained that Asokan Brahmi inscriptions were evolved from tamil Perumi / Thamizhi script. Scholar Barnel also conforms this. Former Madras University Hindi language Dept. Head Dr. Shankar Raj also conforms this.(14)

A Buddhist monk Vachrabothi (600 ACE) who traveled from Kanchipuram to Japan created & re-organised Japanese script based on tamil script even though he knew very well about paly, Prakritham & Sanskrit script. North Indian Rajya sabha MP, Scholar.Lokesh Chandras research paper conclusion says this. (15)

Hence, Worlds foremost available grammar with foremost script never refer four Vedhas and only refers the Moolamarai and details the meanings of Moolamarai in its chapter Porulathikaram.

Tholkappiam specifies Tholkappiar as Iynthiram Niraintha Tholkappiar in Tholkappiam Payiram. This also shows Iynthiram was Moolamarai.

Let us see about Iynthiram in relevant thread.



References :

1. Oppiun Mozhi Nool page 128, Thevaneya Pavanar.
2. Same as 1.
3. Same as 1.
4. Alwarkal Kaala nilai, page 230-31, Mu. Ragava Iyengar.
5 & 6. Naalayira Thivya Pirapantham, Periya Thirumozhi, 5:5:9:5-6,7:7:2 :5-6
7. Pinkala Nigandu 2060-61.
8. South Indian inscriptions Vol ii, page 328, Vol iii, page 370
9. Encyclopedia ,Rep. No ii, 1906 and 76 of 1914.
10. Mozhinool Payiraviyal page 76-77, Makaral Karthikeya Muthaliyar
11. Tamizhil Nanmarai (Essay), Chentamizh chelvi, April 1992, page 304 Poosai.
Subbiah Pillai.
12. Tholkappiam, Sirappu payiram, page 47, A. Sivalinganar.
13,14,15. Tamil & Tamil Culture in Indian history, page 5-6, Dr. Ka. Nedunchezhian,
Tamil University.

f.s.gandhi
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Old 11-13-2006, 03:11 AM   #15
Raj_Copi_Jin

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Dear Mr G.V.

In one of your postings you have mentioned as follows:

".....Tamil 'sivan' is from Tholkappiam 'Seyon' which means reddish angry man......"

I too agree that the term "Seyon" in Tholkaappiam refers to God Siva in the light of another evidence in Saint Maanikkavaasagar's Sivapuraanam of Thuruvaasakam which states as:

".......purathaarkku 'Seyon' than poongkalalkal velha......." in praising God Siva
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:31 PM   #16
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A very good informative thread. Thanks for the contributors.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:06 PM   #17
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Old 01-03-2007, 02:38 AM   #18
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Dear G.V.

The contents - of your Thread and your last posting above - further confirms how the Tamil Saivaism and Tamil Language lost it's place in the Tamil Nadu temples. (very useful contribution).

It is very true that the term "Nan Marai'' should be correctly defined in the background of positive historical evidence.

Even today we are aware of the existance of a class known as Saiva Kurukkals in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere, who could have been the decendents of the earlier outsted Tamil Anthanars (to be verified) of Tamil Nadu.

The term Athi-Saivar too should be defined correctly against positive evidence to bring forth more informations on them too. Further a research into the correct interpretation of the term "Paarpanar" in the earlier Tamil Nadu, too will be very useful.

It appears the meaning of many terms used much earlier in Saivite Religion of Tamil Nadu - to indicate various meanings, over a period time thereafter have been given new interpretations with the onslaughts of new religious and cultural waves from the north.

An indepth study on same has to be made, to correctly interpret the "Thamil Saivam (or Saivaism)", of Tamil Nadu.
CLASSIFICATION

Sivan worship is classified as according to the several patterns of worship and the timeline of them.

They were called as Akachamayam (inner religions) and Akappurachamayam(inner-outernal religions).

Kapalikam, Kaalamukam, Pasupatham, Vairavam, Vaamam, Maaviratham Akappurach chamayam.

Paadaan Vaatha saivam, Petha Vaatha saivam, Vihaara vatha saivam, siva sama Vaatha saivam, Eswara vihara vaatha saivam, Sivaththuva vatha saivam- Akachchamayam.

In the above, Akachchamayam classification is latest evolved one (After 1000 ACE).

The six divisions of Akappurachamayam is specified by Periya Puranam.

ARU VAKAI vilankum Saiva
Thalavila Virathan charum (1)

In this which one is ancient ? we have to find an answer.

We all know Appar (Thirunavukkarasu), & Thiru Knana Sampanthar are important persons in saiva Pakthi Iyakkam.

Maabavik Kadayamanar Vaakeesa Thiruvadiyam
Kaabali Adiyavarpal Kadakkalitrai vidukenna (2)

By this, Researcher Dr. S. Veeramani says Appar belongs to Kabalikam. Mayilai Kabalisvarar temple was made by these traditions.

In Manimekalai (200 ACE) Kabalikars are identified as Sudalai Nonbikal(Burial ground stayers), Maavirathar as Viratha yakkayar(protectors of body), Pasupathars as Pinaththin Maakkal(dead bodies stayers). (3)

Out of them Kabalikam is eldest one. Maavirather almost followed the same principles of Kabalikam. Kalamukam & Pasupatham evolved from Kabalikam.

Dr. Mrs. Vasunthara Fillioza says, 90 % of Karnataka Siva temples belongs to Lakula saivas and they were called as Kalamukars & Pasupathars. They slowly adapted Vedhic Vaduku Poosariyam later during 500 ACE. (4) She also conforms that the Kalamukars got religious supremacy over ancient Kabalikas later years.

KABALIKAM

Kablikars were called Theka Vaathikal (Human body orientationalists). Hedonism and Oham which were part of ulakayitham. Ulakayitham is based on Iyenthiram traditions. Kabalikars followed Ulakayitham(5)

Thirumoolar Thirumanthiram also says as,

Udampaar Azhiyin Uyiral Azhivar
.
Udampai Valarththen Uyir Valarthene
!

Here, Udampu (body), Azhivu-perish : If body perishes, breath stops is the meaning.

Dr. Debiprasad further says, A poetry of Prakasupathi (sanskirt) explained by Mr.Sastri shows that Vedhicism condemned Kabalikars. Vedhics called them as Nasthika(Here Nasthika does not mean Atheists but opponents of Vedhicism Nasthika Vedha Ninthika) (6)

In Third Chankam Mathuraik Kanchi (450 BCE), Kabalikars tantric worship is portratyed. Kabalikam also followed Impootha Vadham (Iyenthiram traditions).

The poetry starts with the following :

Im perum Poothankalin Nayakan (7)
Neruppaik Kaiyil Enthia Nediyone- ..

Then it continuously explained the tantric worship of doing Poosai with flower lotus(symbol for Ladies), bell (symbol for men) & kudam / kumpam (symbol of ladys Womb / Uterus)

The same Kabalikam tantric worship is identified by Archeologist Mr. Kudanthai (Kumbakonam) Sethuraman in a Kanchipuram Sivan temple inscriptions.(700 ACE)(8)

The same traditions are identified in Tholkappiam(1250 BCE) as Kodinilai, Kanthazhi & Valli

Kama pakuthi Kadavulum Varayar(9)

Kodinilai is part of fertility cult of tamils. It contains Manthiram & Enthiram (I may write in detail when I write about Iynthiram later). In that Females were Poosaris.

One of such Kodinilai Enthiram has been found in Sinthu Valley.(10) This worship transformed from tamil land through sinthu valley to Gulf countries and turned as present Islamic Haj kaba worship!.

Kottravai(Tholkappiam) was war god of tamils. She was also called as Kadukzhal(forest head), ulaka annai / Sooli (world mother) & Kumari (ever young lady). Her temples were all in burial ground. Various verses of Puranaanuru show this. Manimekalai call this place as Sampapathi. It was called Chakkaravala kottam / sudu kattu kottam (11)

The symbols of Kottravai later changed into the symbols of Sivan (Seyon). Silapppathikaram Vettuva vari praise kottravai as having Pirai soodal (moon), Nettrikan (third eye), Nakkan (naked), Nanju(poison), Aravai naan (snake), Bending-Merumalai , Yanaithole (Wearing elephant skin).(12)

This conforms that when the tamil society turned from women head (Thai Vazhi) to Men head society the worship also turned that way. Most of the sivan temples in tamil Nadu are near burial grounds also conforms this.

The following verses also conforms this.

Cheer mannum Thirukadavoor thiru MAYANAM( burial ground)(13)
Chira puraththavar ThiruMAYANAMUM paninthu (14)

Sampanthar belongs to Kalamukam traditions. Kalamukam gradually adapted Vedhic form of worship. Sekkizhar portrayed this as,

Pooth mae kaninthu Venthan
Punithanai uyarntha Pozhuthu
NEETHIYUM VETHA NEETHI
YEYAKI nikazhntha thenkum(15)

But, Appar (kabalikar) condemns this as,

Saththiram Pesum Chazhakkarkaal
Koththiramum Kulamum konden cheveer?

Here, He condemns Sastras & Koththiras.

At last Vedhic evil design swallowed Kabalikar also.

If all Sivaities follow Kabalika segment, they would do goodwill to the society.

Tamil Saivam & Vinnavam Bakthi movements at the beginning were against Vedhic, Buddha & Jains and grew with tamil language & spread all over India .

At the sametime we should not forget that Aachivakam was root for Buddha & Jains & tamil poosariyam was root for Vedhicism. I may write about them in relevant thread.

References :

1) Periya puranam, Thiru Knana Sampanthar Puranam, 1203
2) Periya Puranam, Thirunavukkarasar Puranam, 50
3) Manimekalai, 6 : 86-91
4) Lakula Saivins and their contributions to Karnataka,Page 260 Dr. Mrs Vasundhara Fillioza.
5),6) Lokayata, Dr. Debiprasad Chattopadyaya, Op.cit.pp 16-18.
7) Mathurai Kanchi 454-459, 460-467
8) Chanka kaala Tamizhar Samayam Dr. K. Nedunchezhian, Page 113.
9) Tholkappiam Puraththinai
10) Lakayata, Dr. Debiprasad Chattopadyaya, page 320
11)Tamizhukku Vazhankiya kodai Part 2 page 171, Mayilai Seeni. Venkidasamy.
12) Silappathikaram Vettuva vari 54- 61
13) Thirunavu karasar poetry 248
14) Thiruknana sampanthar- poetry 535
15) Thiruknana sampanthar poetry 858

f.s.gandhi
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:04 AM   #19
Slonopotam845

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fsg Ǣ Ţ ը¡ɨ.
, ¢ "" â ǡ 쨸¢ ո "vedaas" ȢŢ Ǣ.
"" , Ţħ Ȣ 측.
â ġ ; Ţ. ý.
츽 θ Ǣ á¢󾡦 θâ 츽 Ĩ .
As you said 'Nanmarai' - Moolamarai' specified 'Isai (Music)' also.

Second Chankam Tholkappiam & Third Chankam literatures Paripadal, Kurunthokai & Thirukkural follow Iynthiram which was Naanmarai(Moola marai) and this school of thought contains Enniyal-Alavaiyiyal(Theory of Reasoning & Logic), Oham-Udal (Medicine), & Ulakayitham ( Materialism).

Prof. A. Chakravarthi Nayinar says this as Pootha vatham (Theory of Universe). Theory of Evolution, Thoery of Cause and Effect and Theory of Hadonism all come under this school of thought. I may write about it in detail later.

In Paripadal,

Naanmarai Virithu nallisai Vilakkum
Vaimozhi Pulavar Kenmin..
.

Akaral ariya aniyizhai nallar
Ikaralai kondu thunikkum thavarilarith
Thallap Porul yiyalpin THAN (D)TAMIZHAI Vanthilar
Kollari kuntru payan? (1)

Paripadal timeline is 300 BCE. Vaduku Poosaris (1000 ACE) Created wrong meaning based on Vedic traditions & wrote explanatory note as Nanmarai- Rig, Yasur, Sama, Atharvana Vedha, Vaimozhi Unwritten.

Isai(music) & Maruththuvam (Medicine) were condemned by Vedhas.

Vedhic Manusmirithi says, One must not eagerly desire wealth by music, no dance, no sing, nor play musical instruments (2)

Aritha Sasthra also condemns Musicians. Artisans, musicians, beggars, buffoons and other idlers who are thieves (3)

How Vedhas do explain Nallisai (music)? Chathur Vedhas are not specified here.

Here we have to derive the meaning based on Tamil Iynthiram traditions.

Naanmarai- Moolamarai. Moola marai is Iynthiram. Vaimozhi means Mei mozhi(truth). In Nallisai (music) history from time immemorial to till 1100 ACE Tamil Panars only prevailed. Vedhicism condemned music. Thevaram lines were made music by a lady from the generation of Thiru Nila kanda Yazhpanar.(4)

The above poetry was written by Kuntram Poothanar. His name itself specifies he is from Poothavatham / Iynthiram traditions. He wanted to specify that Kathal / Kamam and its feelings are more enjoyable than the music. Aniyizai nallar- women.

Iynthiram Niraintha Tholkappian says, Enbamum Porulum Aranum Entranku The Iynthiram traditions.(5)

The same is told by valluvar as,

Undarkan alla thadunara KAMAM pol
Kandar Makizhseithal Entru (6)

Nothing is enjoyable than Kamam is this meaning. Tamils organized this natural behavior of men through Akam.

Human naturality is to get Enbam (pleasure). For that he needs porul (material). It should be got from Aram (morality/Virtue).

The only language that put grammar for this Enbam as akam is tamil in world. The same tradition was transformed by Vathsayana who wrote Kama Sastra (800 ACE). His mother tongue was tamil and he was belonging to Kanchipuram.

In Kurunthokai which was written by Enathi Nedunkannanar also eulogize this tradition.

PARPANA MAKANEI ! Parpana Makanei !

Ezuthak karpin Nin chol Ullum
Pirinthore Punarkkum Panbin
Marunthum undoe mayalo ethuvae ! (7)

Here the meaning of Ezuthak Karpu is wrongly meant & spelt by vaduku poosaris as Unwritten Vedhas !

Whenever Parpan found it is usual for vaduku poosaris to mean as Vedhas !

Here once again we have to derive the meaning based on Iynthiram traditions.

The duty of Parpan is explained in Tholkappiam.

KAMA NILAI uraithalum, Ther nilai uraithalum,
KIZHAVONE kurippinai Yeduththanar Mozhithalum,
..
Annavai Piravum Parparkku Uriya(8)

Kamanilai uraithal- means The Hero & Heroine desire to mingle shall be communicated by Parpan between the two. That is why Enathi Nedunkannanar calls Parpan who is acting as main instrument in Kalavu(love) and Karpu(marriage).

In Kalavu the pain of separation can be wiped by medicine of mingling. It is great mayal (Unconscious pleasure). But in Karpu this situation wont come since mingling is ascertained. So, he questioned the Parpan whether any medicine available in Karpu.
Ezhuthak karpu- Eeru ketta Ethirmarai Peyaraccham- as per tamil grammar.

For example, Vilanka Nirkum means Vilanki nirkum-(stand as explained). In the same way Ezhutha karpu means written Karpu- with Karanam ,everything is customized.

Tholkappiam also talks about this iyer yaththa Karanam.

Hence, Ezhutha karpu never specify four Vedhas.

References :

1) Paripadal 9: 12 -26
2) The ordinance of Manu, II : 177-78
3) Arthasastra, IV:I:204
4) Oppian Mozhinool . Pavanar, Page 116
5) Tholkappiam kalaviyal 1038
6) Thirukkural -1090
7) Tholkappiam Porul-4:36
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:26 AM   #20
Raj_Copi_Jin

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Dear Friends,

What is Nan Marai in Sangam Lit.

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Now Vedics are split as 6 Philosophies-
1. Vaiseshikam - Ganathar(Author)
2. Niyayam - Gouthamar
3. Sankiyam - Kapilar
4. Yogam - Pathanjali
5. Mimamsaa - jaimini
6. Vethantham - Vetha Viyasa now all these have been referred with few author names in Manimekhalai.
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š ξ Athisankarar says that Thol kapilar's Sankiya, Oha & lokayuta are against of Vedhas. These three were called as 'Anviski' in Prahrit and 'Iynthiram' in tamil.

Vedhicism is one kind of Poosariyam that was accredited as religion during Manimekalai period. Soodamani Nikandu never accept Vedhicism as religion.

Six branches that you specify are only Akamas. Not different beliefs specified in Manimekalai.

"Eer Erandu"- is Aram, Porul,Enbam & Veedu - Next line clearly informs "Oru Muthunool" (One) that contains this four. Tholkappiam & Nannul specify these four 'vitues' shall be in a 'Nool'. I have already refered in my last post. This is tamil Iynthiram tradition.

Various forms of Poosariyam were followed by Poosaris and their various names specify the nature of Poosariyam they adapted. Parpan, Poosari, Pulayar, Kurukkal, Potri, Uvachchan, Nambi, KudiParayar, Ambattan, Valluvan, Kaniyan were various Poosaris. (1)

Karuman, Thatchan,Katrachchan,Kannaan,Porkollan were five segments of Kammalars and they called themselves as Iynkollar/ Visuwa karuma Parpanar and they never invited Vaduku Poosaris for their rituals.

Valluvans were priests to the early pallava kings before Vaduku Poosaris came into being. A tamil Vattelzhuththu inscription of Pallava (800 ACE) shows that Valluvan Puvanan, the Uvachchan of this temple will employ daily six men for doing temple service. (2)

Varuna system is highlight of Vedhic Religion. Manusmirithi Organised it. Then it was inserted in Rig Vedha s last paragraph. Infact, Rather, Before common era four type of Varna system were followed.

Tholkappiam type (1250 BCE) was Tamil Parpar-Arasar-Vanikar-Velalar. In this Velalar can become arasar (Kings). Divisions were based on Occupation.

VENTHU (king) vidu Padayum Kanniyum

Villum Velum Kazhalum Kanniyum
Tharum Aramum Therum Mavum
Manperu marabin Enorkku Uriya (3)

The Tholkappiam system is documented in Chanakiyans (Thramila a tamil Parpan-who went from Kanchipuram) Artha sastra (300 BCE) which was written in Prahrit and translated into Sanskrit during 150 ACE.

Chanakya classified the studies that men have to study as,

1. Anviksiki (Equivalent to tamil Iynthiram-Sankiya,Yoha, lokayitha)
2. THIRAIe (Four varna system & Tharma)
3. Varththa (Agriculture)
4. Thanda Needhi ( Laws) (4)

As per Arthasastra, Thiraie specifies the Four Varna system & their customs. It explains the Occupation nature of these four Varna men. There also no caste by birth is specified. No mention of Vedhas in that. Thiraie seems to be direct tamil world to specify Hide marai. Thirai in tamil means Marai.

Some north Indian scholars mean the word Thiraieas Trayi (Triple Vedhas) ! (5) Here only three Vedhas ! What about the fourth one ?- Totally meaningless.


Before common era, Poosariyam scattered with their various forms in Chera,Chola,Pandiya & Mahatham kingdoms.

The Vedhas were organized by Vaduku Poosaris in Kanchipuram after common era. Such kind of Bramanocracy was made by Parasuraman in Southern Kerala Thiruchur.(6)

The words like Othu,Oththu,Nambi, Kalakam, Cheraman Perumal, Kovil (tamil) specify that Tamil Poosariyam was the base of such Bramanocracy.

Valluva Kone was head of the Brahmin conferences. Kerala Parayar were said to be brothers of such Parpans.(7) Brahmins relied Valluvans for writing their horoscope & predictions.(8)

Parasuraman made Konkanis(fisherman) also as Parpans by giving holy thread and so later Nampuri / Namputhiri marriages had the ritual of catching fish. Nampuri was derived word from Nambi (9)

When Vaduku Poosaris occupied the positions of tamil poosaris they called the Western Coast (between Kokaranam & kanyakumari) as Karuma Poomi.(10)

In Rig Vedha, Tamil Otthu, Potri combinedly is called as Hotri (11)

Manusmirithi says such kind of Brahmavartham (Cloning) was there in between Saraswathi & Thirustavathi rivers (12)

Knana Vettiyan Poems says as,

POONOOL Piranthathu Enkae ? siva siva
PIN KUDUMI Anathu Enkae ?.....

Veenila Othu Kintra VETHIYAR KALAE !
VETHAM pirantha EDAMUM Cholveer kaan !

THEVARAM piranthathu enkae ? THIRUVUM (Thiruvasakam) enkae?
THIRUMANTHIRAM piranthathu enthen PARAYIL Ulaae ! (13)

It conforms Poonool, Kudumi, Vetham all organized in tamil land. Thevaram, Thiruvasakam & Thirumanthiram were written by Tamil Parayar / Parpan.

Thirumanthiram (500 ACE) also conforms that Vedhas were organized in tamil land.

Erana KANYA KUMARIYAE Kaveri
Vera Nava Theertham Mikkulla Verpu Ezhul
Perana VETHA AKAMAMUMAE Piraththalan
Maratha THEN THISAI Vaiyakam SUTHTHAMAE. (14)

When I write about Rig Vedha in separate thread I may write more about this.


Jains (500 BCE) who were non-believers of fate , destiny & caste by birth accepted Brahmin-Shattriyan-Vaisiyan-Sudran Varna in which anyone can become any form depending on their profession.

Buddhists(550 BCE) accepted the system where Kings were placed first. Shattriyan-Brahmin-Vaisiyan- Sudran was their pattern. Buddhist also rejected destiny and caste by birth.

In tamil Ezham (300 BCE) Arasar-Velalar-Parpar-Vanikar pattern was followed. Caste by birth was not followed.

Soodamani Nikandu (Dictionary ) wont accept this Vedhicism as separate religion.

ARU SAMAYANKAL Avana NAIYAYIKATH thodu
Urayum VAISADIKAM Melulavu LOKAYUTHAM thaan
KUYILUM. MEEMANCHAM entru kuriththavai yantri Nalla
Neriyula ARUKKAM, BUTHTHAM neethi yentru othumantrae (15)

Six religions were kniyayam (Knayam), Vaisadikam (sirappiyam), Lokayutham (Ulakaiyutham), Meemaanchai,Arukkam (Jains) & Buddham.

Hence Vedhi Age had not existed at all and if it existed It would be only after common era. (150 ACE to 900 ACE). Chathur Vedhas classification is the very latest one.

References :

1) Oppian Mozhinool, Pavanar, Page 40.
2) Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol VII, Asian Educational services, Page 303-304, by Edgar Thurston And K. Rangachari.
3) Tholkappiam, Porulathikaram, 9:82 & 9:84
4) Arthasastra, I : II : 6.
5) Ibid, I : II : 1
6) Francis Day, Op.Cit., Page 40-41
7) Gustave Oppert, Op.Cit., page 69
8) The Dravidians, Gustave Oppert, page 68
9) Francis Day, Op.Cit., Page 309
10) Glossary of Madras Presidency, Page 411.
11) Vinsulo, Tamil-English Dictionary, Page 830, Oppian Mozhi nool, page 39.
12) The Ordinance of Manu, Transulated by Arthur Coke Burnell II : 17.
13) Knana Vettiyan poems 1500, 35-40
14) Thiru molar : Thirumanthiram 2709
15) Soodamani Pannirandu Nikandu, 12 : 51, Mayilam Subramaniya sami explanatory note


f.s.gandhi
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