[8IhGpvH0]

To use the format from the initial quote, what I see continues on is the carbon, nitrogen and other material elements and what can also continue on, as in the case of The Dalai Lama, is the social role, political position, recipient and giver of teachings and understandings.

[zlopikanikanza]

posted by Element
I think if the mind can be placed in the state free from self-belief or self-conception then the notion of reincarnation can be examined from that perspective. I will answer you after I understand how you can examine reincarnation in the perspective of the mind being placed free from self-belief or self-conception. Please elaborate. Let us share ideas.

[asypecresty]

From "Essential Points of the Buddhist Teachings" by Ajahn Buddhadasa:



The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance? (kamma-is volitional action by means of body, speech or mind.) These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so, they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism.

Also, one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indiscriminately believe the answer he is given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until its something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.

Now, if one doesn't raise those sort of problems, one can ask instead, "Is there Dukkha?" and "How can Dukkha be extinguished?" To these questions the Buddha agreed to answer, and the listener can see the truth of every word of his answer without having to blindly believe them, see more and more clearly until he understands. And if one understands to the extent of being able to extinguish Dukkha, then that is the ultimate understanding.

One knows that, even at this moment, there is no person living; one sees without a doubt that there is no self or anything belonging to a self. There is just a feeling of "I" and "mine" arising due to the foolishness whereby one is deluded by the beguiling nature of sense-experience. Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.

The Buddhist teachings aim to inform us that there is no self and nothing belonging to a self, there is only the false understanding of the ignorant mind. There is merely body and mind, which are nothing but natural processes. They function like a mechanism that can process and transform data. If they do so by the wrong method, it gives rise to foolishness and delusion, so that one feels that there is a self and things which belong to a self.

If they do so by the correct method, those feelings do not arise; there is the primal truth-discerning awareness (satipanna), the fundamental true knowing and clear seeing that there is no self and nothing belonging to a self.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm



.

[Jellowstrom]

To use the format from the initial quote, what I see continues on is the carbon, nitrogen and other material elements and what can also continue on, as in the case of The Dalai Lama, is the social role, political position, recipient and giver of teachings and understandings.

Perhaps I'm missing something but that seems to be a slightly roundabout way of saying "Whoever is the Dalai Lama now is the Dalai Lama" which is true but not very exciting. If reincarnation of the Dalai Lama refers just to the continuation of certain set of social institutions, the word 'reincarnation' doesn't add anything to our understanding but since 'reincarnation' (or, for that matter, 'rebirth') has a ton of other connotations, its use will just confuse. To make that a bit clearer, on that understanding of reincarnation, what's the difference between saying "He's a reincarnation of the nth Dalai Lama" and "He's the (n+x)th Dalai Lama"? Those two sentences seem functionally equivalent but the second is a lot less confusing.

More importantly, though, it doesn't say anything about why Bob and not Bill becomes the Dalai Lama and this is surely the crucial point. I also can't see why the Dalai Lama gets singled out for this kind of special attention. Why not the Prime Minister, or the head teacher of the local school or even my pet? These are all social institutions which persist over time and apply to multiple temporally separated individuals. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything here - I just have a really hard time understanding rebirth/reincarnation. It's obvious why, from the standpoint of the modern world, we might be more than a little sceptical about this but it also just sounds deeply confusing in its own terms.

---

^ I like that. I must read some more Buddhadasa when I have time.

[italertb]

HHDL has never claimed to be exciting, as far as I am aware.


Tibetan Buddhism is inexplicably linked to Tibetan culture and to understand, again using the format of the previous quote " why Bob and not Bill becomes Dalai Lama " is something which requires instruction from Tibetan understanding and only TB practitioners, rather than all Buddhists need to concern themselves with this, unless they want to gain understanding. I find many things confusing yet do not allow myself to become unsettled by my lack of understanding - I either find out or let it be.

[Ad0i89Od]

Tibetan Buddhism... is something which requires instruction from Tibetan understanding and only TB practitioners, rather than all Buddhists need to concern themselves with this, unless they want to gain understanding. I find many things confusing yet do not allow myself to become unsettled by my lack of understanding - I either find out or let it be.

Well, two things. 1. You responded to a post I made to someone else (Rhysman) and you introduced the Dalai Lama's reincarnation as a response to my post.

2. But after you introduced the reincarnation of the DL and made a claim about it (presumably thereby opening the topic up for discussion), I was hoping exactly to 'find out' but if you don't want to expand, that's obviously your decision and, since I don't think I'll start with Tibetan Buddhism any time soon, I guess I'll just have to be content with the Dalai Lama's reincarnation being forever a mystery beyond explanation.

But - if you read this Rhysman - my original question about the wood-chair-ash still stands; I'd just like to get a better understanding of what people think.

By the way, the 'exciting' comment was in reference to the stating of a tautology, not to the contents of that tautology.


.

[sicheAscems]

Hi Lampang, well, lol ... actually you then responded to my quote.
Whilst I am not a teacher, I am a TB practitioner and like discussing Buddhist practice with others, however as you suggest beyond what I have offered thus far ( rather than made any claim ) any expanation is best with a Tibetan culture teacher.

[Elisabetxxx]

All things are reborn, not just sentient beings but also non-sentient. Take a tree. We (cause) cut it down (condition) and make a chair (effect). Later someone burns the chair and now we see ash. Cause = someone, condition = burn wood, effect = ash. The tree is a tree, the chair is a chair, and ash is ash. Also, you could say that the tree is not a tree, the chair is not a chair and ash is not ash. One did not become the other but they are still the same.

sounds like 'recycling' but how does this relate to freedom from suffering?

[xsVfF9Em]

how you can examine reincarnation in the perspective of the mind being placed free from self-belief or self-conception.

i am not sure one can . buddha described when the mind abides free from self-belief:

Now, monks, knowing thus and seeing thus, would you run after the past, thinking: 'Were we in the past? Were we not in the past? What were we in the past? How were we in the past? Having been what, what were we in the past'?

Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you run after the future, thinking: 'Shall we be in the future? Shall we not be in the future? What shall we be in the future? How shall we be in the future? Having been what, what shall we be in the future'?

Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound'?

MN 38

[Avaindimik]

Many people claim of near death experience that mostly occurs during an operation in the hospital. They can tell the surgeon what they saw and how the surgeon does operation on them while they were unconscious. You will find many claims on YouTube.

Didn't read the entire post since it is really long but this para caught my eye. The only problem is near-death is still not after-death but merely a present life experience. Personally for me, a mind without a body or any kind of supporting physical base is unfathomable.

[adolfadsermens]

posted by Deshy
Didn't read the entire post since it is really long but this para caught my eye. The only problem is near-death is still not after-death but merely a present life experience. Personally for me, a mind without a body or any kind of supporting physical base is unfathomable. This is understandable as I mention in the post. Please read the entire post so that you don't misunderstand this thread.

[mymnarorump]

posted by Deshy


This is understandable as I mention in the post. Please read the entire post so that you don't misunderstand this thread.

OK I managed to read it. What are the special benefits of believing in reincarnation that you cannot get by not believing in reincarnation?

[massons]

OK I managed to read it. What are the special benefits of believing in reincarnation that you cannot get by not believing in reincarnation?

.The benefit you get is realization it takes more than one lifetime to achieve liberation.whats the point of striving if there is no after life. Yes you may achieve peace but you have nothing at the
end

[toponlinecasinoer]

This might not belong here, so if it doesn't please forgive me. But, is it wrong to anticipate happily, the next rebirth?

[Ambassador]

This might not belong here, so if it doesn't please forgive me. But, is it wrong to anticipate happily, the next rebirth?

I think that this can be essental

[D6b2v1HA]

This might not belong here, so if it doesn't please forgive me. But, is it wrong to anticipate happily, the next rebirth?

If you believe in rebirth you might be reborn as a slug. Why would you anticipate that happily ?

Please can you tell me what the benefits are in speculating about rebirth rather than paying attention to what's happening in this life here and now ?

[majestictwelve]

Posted by Element
I have my doubts about the sentiment expressed above.

in my reading, the core Buddhist sutras are about a mind free from 'self' belief. I think if the mind can be placed in the state free from self-belief or self-conception then the notion of reincarnation can be examined from that perspective.

as for benefiting from the idea of reincarnation, can you kindly list the benefits you perceive come from holding such an idea? Posted by Deshy
What are the special benefits of believing in reincarnation that you cannot get by not believing in reincarnation? Pali Sources, Anguttara-Nikaya III.35
Did you ever see in the world a man or a woman, eighty, ninety, or a hundred years old, frail, crooked as a gableroof, bent down supported on staff, with tottering steps, infirm, youth long since fled, with broken teeth, grey and scanty hair, or bald-headed, wrinkled, with blotch limbs?
And the thought never occur to you, that you also are subject to decay, that you cannot escape it? Although one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation cannot escape old age in the coming round, but through death they have escape old age.

For those who see rebirth/reincarnation they cannot escape old age at all because they will go through old age lives after lives infinitely, until they fully understand the teachings of emptiness, selflessness, nirvana.

Can the one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation gain benefit from learning the Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness?
They may or may not gain benefit from learning Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness.

The one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation may gain benefit from learning the Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness depending on the point of view of what Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness is to them.

The one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation may not gain benefit from the Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness because it is irrelevant to them because through death there will be no more self.

But, the one who see rebirth/reincarnation gain benefit from learning the Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness because it is something they have to seek and strive for to end their endless cycle of life and death and sufferings.
And what must they practice to fully understand selflessness?

They must first practice patients.

Sanskrit sources; Kshanti Paramita from the Diamond Sutra (14B)
Besides, Subhuti, I recall that during my five hundred previous lives, I had used life after life to practice patience and to look upon my life humbly as though it was some saintly being called upon to suffer humility. Can the one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation gain benefit from learning about suffering by Buddha’s comment about him recalling his past lives?
No, they cannot gain benefit from learning about suffering by Buddha’s comment about him recalling his past lives because the idea of past lives is irrelevant to them therefore they may either dismiss this, ignore this, or maybe even call this sutra fake.

But, the one who see rebirth/reincarnation gain benefit from learning about suffering by Buddha’s comment about him recalling his past lives because this thought may occur to them,” I too should use life after life to practice patience and to look upon my life humbly as though it was some saintly being called upon to suffer humility.”

But as far as benefits one cannot say one has more special benefits than others and why?

Just because one believe in reincarnation/rebirth does not mean they learn more or less than the one that does not believe in rebirth/reincarnation, and why, because we all want to learn how to either gain a more peaceful and happier life or to learn the truth about life.

When this individual is satisfied in gaining the amount of peace and happiness from learning, then he/she has learned to the fullest.

As long as they gain the full benefit from learning the things they need or want to learn, then one cannot say they earn more or less special benefits than others.

When I say one may benefit from all the sutras I do not mean one benefits more or less than others because benefits does not comes from the amount of books you read, but from what you desire to accomplish in this life.

[attishina]

If you believe in rebirth you might be reborn as a slug. Why would you anticipate that happily ?

Please can you tell me what the benefits are in speculating about rebirth rather than paying attention to what's happening in this life here and now ?

My understanding and something that has been clearly stated in the Teachings that I have gotten is that if you do the Dharma work in a positive and consistent way you can help to ensure a higher rebirth.

[texprofi]

My understanding and something that has been clearly stated in the Teachings that I have gotten is that if you do the Dharma work in a positive and consistent way you can help to ensure a higher rebirth.

This is a morality teaching .

One can have a 'higher rebirth' in the same lifetime .

[Lapsinuibense]

Although one who does not see rebirth/reincarnation cannot escape old age in the coming round

these ideas come from the imagination. one needs to be concerned about the coming aging & death in this life rather than in a "next round". for example, we may die today, tonight or tomorrow. is the mind ready for this?

But, the one who see rebirth/reincarnation gain benefit from learning the Tathagatha’s teachings of selflessness because it is something they have to seek and strive for to end their endless cycle of life and death and sufferings.

i think it is difficult to end suffering when suffering is not seen. if we imagine suffering occurring endlessly in the future, i am not sure this is enough to motivate practise. Buddha taught one practises like seeing their head on fire

imo, the more belief in rebirth, the more becoming (bhava), the more embracing 'self', the more avoiding impermanence, the more unprepared for old age & death

please do not be negligent. buddha taught like this. please do not believe blind faith can save you when old & dying. the work must be done now rather than in the future

kind regards