[KignPeeseeamn]

appeasement

1. pacification, compromise, accommodation, concession, conciliation, acceding, propitiation, mollification, placation

2. easing, relieving, satisfaction, softening, blunting, soothing, quieting, lessening, lulling, quelling, solace, quenching, mitigation, abatement, alleviation, assuagement, tranquillization the appeasement of terror what do we think?



Now from the remainderless fading and appeasement of that very ignorance comes the appeasement of fabrications.

From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness.
From the appeasement of consciousness comes the appeasement of mind-&-body.
From the appeasement of mind-&-bodycomes the appeasement of the six sense media.
From the appeasement of the six sense media comes the appeasement of contact.
From the appeasement of contact comes the appeasement of feeling.
From the appeasement of feeling comes the appeasement of craving.
From the appeasement of craving comes the appeasement of clinging.
From the appeasement of clinging comes the appeasement of becoming.
From the appeasement of becoming comes the appeasement of birth.
From the appeasement of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to appeasement.

Such is the appeasement of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

[HawksBurnDown]

Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

[pseusawbappem]

Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

I found this here, http://thewholeworks.blogspot.co.nz/...le-truths.html I don't know how reliable it is

Nirodha-- ‘confine’; rodha means ‘earth bank’ or ‘enclosure’; ni means ‘down’;
(not nir-rodha meaning ‘out of prison’) As for the OP I think the difference between cessation and appeasement is the former could be something that has just stopped (maybe spontainiously) whereas the latter suggests a process of actively making it stop, which is better would depend on the emphasis that is desired.

[allvideO]

I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

Visuddhimagga

Nirodha (cessation): the word ni denotes absence, and the word rodha, a
prison. Now, the third truth is void of all destinies and so there is no
constraint (rodha) of suffering here reckoned as the prison of the round of rebirths;
or when that cessation has been arrived at, there is no more constraint of suffering
reckoned as the prison of the round of rebirths. And being the opposite of that
prison, it is called dukkha-nirodha (cessation of suffering). Or alternatively, it is
called “cessation of suffering” because it is a condition for the cessation of
suffering consisting in non-arising. A problem with the word "nirodha"

The word nirodha has been translated as "cessation" for so long that it has become standard practice and any deviation from it leads to queries. Even in this book I have opted for this standard translation for sake of convenience and to avoid confusing it for other Pali terms (apart from lack of a better word). In fact, however, this rendering of the word "nirodha" as "ceased" can in many instances be a mis-rendering of the text.

Generally speaking, the word "cease" means to do away with something which has already arisen or the stopping of something which has already begun. However, nirodha in the teaching of Dependent Origination (as also in dukkhanirodha, the third of the Four Noble Truths) means the non-arising, or non-existence, of something because the cause of its arising is done away with. For example, the phrase "when avijja is nirodha, sankhara are also nirodha," which is usually taken to mean "with the cessation of ignorance, volitional impulses cease," in fact means "when there is no ignorance or no arising of ignorance, or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there are no volitional impulses, volitional impulses do not arise or there is no longer any problem with volitional impulses." It does not mean that ignorance already arisen must be done away with before the volitional impulses which have already arisen will also be done away with.

Where nirodha should be rendered as cessation is when it is used in reference to the natural way of things or the nature of compounded things. In this sense it is a synonym for the words bhanga, breaking up, anicca, transient, khaya, cessation or vaya, decay. For example, in the Pali it is given: imam kho bhikkhave tisso vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khayadhamma vayadhamma viragadhamma nirodhadhamma: "Monks, these three kinds of feeling are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading and cessation."[S.IV.214] (All of the factors occurring in the Dependent Origination cycle have the same nature.) In this instance, the meaning is "all conditioned things (sankhara), having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors." There is no need to try to stop them, they cease of themselves. Here the intention is to describe a natural condition which, in terms of practice, simply means "that which arises can be done away with."

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising" and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

Therefore, translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."

Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."

PA Payutto ***

[topcasinobonua]

From the non-arising of fabrications comes the non-arising of consciousness.

"non-arising"

of what? in nirodha, does consciousness not arise?


If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya

[ebBPxIai]

I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

Nah, that'll be an error on this side, whoops.

[Clolmemaexata]

imso, it is essential dhamma theory correlates with the reality of dhamma (experience of truth)

at the links are the 2nd set of dhamma talks i heard in my life, the 1st set being heard one month earlier

i highly recommend them (rather than wasting time with the Hindu rebirthers obsessions with 'cessation')

Noble Truth of Dukkha's Quenching part 1

Noble Truth of Dukkha's Quenching part 2

***

[SergZHy67]

Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

Can I know from where you got this translation please? Udaya in pali means arising indeed.

[iodillalm]

Can I know from where you got this translation please? Udaya in pali means arising indeed.

The translation appears to be mere theory (aka 'superstition'). In experience, when suffering ceases, the aggregates do not cease.

In respect to Paticcanirodha, the terms 'cessation' & 'non-arising' are not relevant.

Kind regards

[iNYZgxNC]

In respect to Paticcanirodha, the terms 'cessation' & 'non-arising' are not relevant.

I was not referring to Paticcanirodha. I was referring to nirodha as in sanna-vedayita-nirodha. What I want to know specifically is how Dave got the reference to this:
nirodha = Nir + Udaya

[DiatryDal]

It comes from other discussions of this term, elsewhere.

Margaret Cone's dictionary offers

nirodha, 1. ceasing, cessation; the being no more; stopping, shutting of. ... 2. (for sannavedayitanirodha) the cessation of conception and feeling ... nir + udaya simply seemed correct, given this common reading of the term, but see below.

I had understood vaya to mean 'cessation', as in the compound udaya-vaya-nupassana-nana - here, I understood udaya-vaya- 'arising-ceasing-', as opposed terms. This is why 'cessation' as a translation of nirodha feels inadequate to me, and I prefer the literalism of making sure a translation reflects the structure 'ni(r) + ...'. (As an aside, as I understood it, 'ni(r)' has provided the 'r', making 'rodha' unlikely.)

As to 'appeasement', the word for this in Pali, I had thought, was santhanaṃ.

[EvaQWmrm]

i reckon it is best to forget the Pali words. often, we refer to them as though Rhys Davids, Horner, etc, are arahants

i thought 'appeasement' was a very good explanatory word, better than 'quenching' or 'extinguising'

naturally, we are open to more suggestions about the English word that best describes the experience of 'nirodha' in terms of Paticcanirodha

[saturninus.ribb]

i reckon...

i thought 'appeasement' was a very good explanatory word, better than 'quenching' or 'extinguising'

That's funny, because I also do not prefer 'quenching' or 'extinguishing', and had thought "non-arising" was a very good explanatory word as well... but apparently not. It

appears to be mere theory (aka 'superstition')

and yet you offer the same...

[GreefeWrereon]

and yet you offer the same...

definitely not

Element offered this:

Now from the remainderless fading and appeasement of that very ignorance comes the appeasement of fabrications.

From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness.
From the appeasement of consciousness comes the appeasement of mind-&-body.
From the appeasement of mind-&-bodycomes the appeasement of the six sense media.
From the appeasement of the six sense media comes the appeasement of contact.
From the appeasement of contact comes the appeasement of feeling.
From the appeasement of feeling comes the appeasement of craving.
From the appeasement of craving comes the appeasement of clinging.
From the appeasement of clinging comes the appeasement of becoming.
From the appeasement of becoming comes the appeasement of birth.
From the appeasement of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to appeasement.

Such is the appeasement of this entire mass of stress & suffering. Daverupa offered this:

Now from the remainderless fading and non-arising of that very ignorance comes the non-arising of fabrications.

From the non-arising of fabrications comes the non-arising of consciousness.
From the non-arising of consciousness comes the non-arising of mind-&-body.
From the non-arising of mind-&-bodycomes the non-arising of the six sense media.
From the non-arising of the six sense media comes the non-arising of contact.
From the non-arising of contact comes the non-arising of feeling.
From the non-arising of feeling comes the non-arising of craving.
From the non-arising of craving comes the non-arising of clinging.
From the non-arising of clinging comes the non-arising of becoming.
From the non-arising of becoming comes the non-arising of birth.
From the non-arising of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to non-arising .

Such is the non-arising of this entire mass of stress & suffering. the later is superstition because such an experience cannot be experienced in the liberated mind

[duminyricky]

such an experience cannot be experienced in the liberated mind

This is an assertion with no support, as yet. I'd be interested in your line of thinking here. ("remainderless fading and non-arising" seems perfectly adequate...)

[Kdgjhytiy]

nir + udaya simply seemed correct, given this common reading of the term, but see below.

I had understood vaya to mean 'cessation', as in the compound udaya-vaya-nupassana-nana - here, I understood udaya-vaya- 'arising-ceasing-', as opposed terms. This is why 'cessation' as a translation of nirodha feels inadequate to me, and I prefer the literalism of making sure a translation reflects the structure 'ni(r) + ...'. (As an aside, as I understood it, 'ni(r)' has provided the 'r', making 'rodha' unlikely.)

As to 'appeasement', the word for this in Pali, I had thought, was santhanaṃ.

Thanks Dave. When I first read Nir+Udaya I thought it was interesting because Nir has the meaning of none, nothing and udaya - arising. Whereas rodha in ni+rodha has the meaning of cyclic according to my understanding. So nir+udaya for nirodha is more possible and I have a feeling you could be right here : nir+udaya

As for 'appeasement', it is in fact a better translation than non-arising because according to the context where nirodha is used, it can mean both non-arising as well as relieve, pacification... 'appeasement' is flexible that way.

[Flefebleaft]

That's funny, because I also do not prefer 'quenching' or 'extinguishing', and had thought "non-arising" was a very good explanatory word as well... but apparently not.

the suttas have thoroughly dismissed "non-arising"

in the following quotes, do consciousness, the sense bases & sense contract "non-arise"?


If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

The Greater Craving-Destruction Discourse

[amagmasia]

This is an assertion with no support, as yet. I'd be interested in your line of thinking here. ("remainderless fading and non-arising" seems perfectly adequate...)

i am not actually interested in having a DW style papanca discussion with you. my thinking has already been posted.

as for Daverupa, Buddha said:

There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Daverupa, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.

What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, Daverupa.

[Saqwnht]

nirodha-samāpatti | non-arising attainment / appeasement attainment

saññā-vedayita-nirodha | perception-feeling non-arising / perception-feeling appeasement

These two terms are equated, and follow the last formless attainment in the Suttas. This is why non-arising feels like a good fit to me, since it has wide application in the Pali compounds where it is found. 'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts.

It's definitely a subtle matter; I suggest we try to leave the word untranslated wherever we find it, which may support discussion, unlike some of Element's antics.

[aaaaaaahabbbby]

As for 'appeasement', it is in fact a better translation than non-arising because according to the context where nirodha is used, it can mean both non-arising as well as relieve, pacification... 'appeasement' is flexible that way.

the essence of nirodha is liberation

Now from the remainderless fading and liberation from that very ignorance comes the liberation from fabrications.

From the liberation from fabrications comes the liberation of consciousness.
From the liberation of consciousness comes theliberation of mind-&-body.
From the liberation of mind-&-bodycomes the liberation of the six sense media.
From the liberation of the six sense media comes the liberation of contact.
From the liberation of contact comes the liberation of feeling.
From the liberation of feeling comes the liberation from craving.
From the liberation from craving comes the liberation from clinging.
From the liberation from clinging comes the liberation from becoming.
From the liberation from becoming comes the liberation from birth.
From the liberation from birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to liberation.

Such is the liberation from this entire mass of stress & suffering.