[Vjwkvkoy]

The Russkies sat over there on their asses. I think they had some eskimos blocking the path, intimidating them.

[kanchouska]

The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.

[polleroy]

The Soul Trains?

[stuntduood]

They clearly needed their own version of Cortez If only Greenland was actually gold

[ErnestTU]

and no gold to be had for conquering that part of North America. that was my point

[tipoketpu]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.
Hmmm, hadn't heard of that. Still, may only be a small expedition, and one that evidently failed or there would be a derivative culture with many spear points to be found instead of one chance find.

Crossing the North Atlantic is a hard and lengthy voyage compared to hopping along the coast of a Berents land bridge, much less crossing on foot. Following the edge of icepack is dangerous. Ferrying women and children requires greater supplies, probably more than they could carry in whatever vessels they had.

[RedImmik]

Originally posted by Straybow
Originally posted by Berzerker
The Vikes were latecomers, there's evidence of the Solutreans (18K) making the trip - spear points found in Virginia share traits with France/Spain. Thats what the expert at the Smithsonian says, he works on tools/weapons.
Hmmm, hadn't heard of that. Still, may only be a small expedition, and one that evidently failed or there would be a derivative culture with many spear points to be found instead of one chance find.

Crossing the North Atlantic is a hard and lengthy voyage compared to hopping along the coast of a Berents land bridge, much less crossing on foot. Following the edge of icepack is dangerous. Ferrying women and children requires greater supplies, probably more than they could carry in whatever vessels they had. The Vikings occupied Greenland for something like 400 years. At some point they landed in New Foundland, but abandoned realtively fast the settlement after they found dealing with the natives to be problematic. (Might have something to do with their first encounter reportedly involving killing one just to see if he bled.)

After that they made occasional expeditions to Markland (Baffin Island I believe) for lumber which wasn't available in Greenland.

The trouble was that they couldn't sail straight from Europe to the New World, and really their base of exploration was the colony of a colony. They had enough trouble as it was maintaining their existance on Greenland. Now obviously, if someone had thought to put together an armada with lots of longships loaded down with warriors armed and armored in steel, they would have crushed the natives, but that would have had to happen in Norway or somewhere else and get sent over by way of Iceland and Greenland. Neither of the latter two could have afforded such an invasion force themselves.

[Ccddfergt]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by BlackCat


The most straight route from scandinavia to NA would actually be close to Iceland, so it wouldn't be that much of a diversion to go for supplies there.[quote]

The problem is more one of range of the ships and seaworthiness over long journies. They would have to sail to Iceland, Greenland, then down along the islands in North America. Sailiing straight across the open Atlantic Ocean like Columbus would have been a bad move. The trouble is that Greenland couldn't really support such an armada for any length of time.

Ehrm, no. They managed fine for several hundred years. There are theories that climate change made it impossible to stay, but a recent says that because of massive deaths due to various epidemies, there were room back in scandinavia, so they resettled there. Possibly true, but they also did some stupid things like refusing to eat fish and trading for church bells instead of other things that might have helped them survive longer. It's also possible that they may have overfarmed the area or that nothing they could have done would have prevented the cold period from the 1400s onward.

Well, those armadas did exist, but they were busy in taking land in closer savage areas such as britain, france and russia Or getting horribly slaughtered at Stamford Bridge

[Corryikilelet]

Crossing the North Atlantic is a hard and lengthy voyage compared to hopping along the coast of a Berents land bridge, much less crossing on foot. Following the edge of icepack is dangerous. Ferrying women and children requires greater supplies, probably more than they could carry in whatever vessels they had. During the ice age an ice shelf covered the N Atlantic so voyagers could hug the coastline and make use of the rich wildlife all the way to the New World. After the ice age ended and the ice shelf melted away the open water became a major obstacle. Early Euros may have made the trip when they had the ice shelf but once it was gone the trip was much more hazardous and maintaining any colonies became more difficult. The Vikes enjoyed the warm period from 1000 to about 1350 but the mini ice age started up and that probably ended the Greenland colony.

Nova did a docu on the Lost Red Paint People (known for the use of red ochre in burials, etc) ringing the N Atlantic. By studying middens (piles of garbage left by these people) archaeologists determined they had an advanced maritime culture (maritime archaic) with deep sea fishing capabilities going back to the end of the warm period 9 - 5K BC. Their tools show close affinities to tools found in Denmark and the Euro coastal areas facing the Atlantic. These people placed standing stones along the coastal areas for navigation which may have translated into the megalith cultures of Spain, France and The British Isles. Archaeologists have found evidence in both England and the New World of a not so common means of "burial", the dead was placed on a wood scaffold above ground and the body was exposed to the elements until the flesh withered away. Its possible the Solutreans made the trip during the ice age, traffic slowed when the ice melted, and their colonies became absorbed or integrated into the more populous Indian cultures which then moved eastward up and around the Atlantic eventually meeting with Euros doing the same thing on their side of the Atlantic. Eventually both cultures met around Iceland, Greenland, or the British Isles.

[bug_user]

There is some evidence of exploration of NA prior to Vinland colony, but no evidence of successful long term settlement of the interior. One of my friends is a doctor who studied under a prof who did forensic anthropology with DNA from various tribes. I'll try to find some sources.

[zueqhbyhp]

Originally posted by Arrian
I dunno if Diamond's explanation for why they didn't eat fish in Greenland works, but yeah, apparently the Viking middens contained no fish remnants. Odd, considering they ate fish elsewhere and fish would seem to be a logical food source in Greenland.

-Arrian Jarred's explanation is that it was that it was probably something silly like some of them getting sick from eating the fish shortly after arriving and deciding the fish wasn't good to eat there.

At any rate, it was a stupid move given that fish would have helped them supplement their diet.

[masaredera]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


Jarred's explanation is that it was that it was probably something silly like some of them getting sick from eating the fish shortly after arriving and deciding the fish wasn't good to eat there.

At any rate, it was a stupid move given that fish would have helped them supplement their diet. I know, I read the book. I said I dunno if the explanation works (makes sense).

It's possible, I suppose, but I have trouble buying it.

-Arrian

[tramadoldiscountes]

That's a great example however I doubt the scattered and sparse settlements on Greenland ever had a powerful central authority like China had. They were on the knife edge of starvation and eventually they did die out.

Norway was one of the poorest and least populated states in Europe plus it's political development during the middle ages just wasn't up to the level other colonial powers had 5-6 centuries later. It just couldn't support such a far away colony located in such a barren place much less enforce any really central political control.

[jeargefef]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


Jarred's explanation is that it was that it was probably something silly like some of them getting sick from eating the fish shortly after arriving and deciding the fish wasn't good to eat there.

At any rate, it was a stupid move given that fish would have helped them supplement their diet. What sources does Jarred use? It seems very odd to mje, given that Vikings were fully used to fish diet and Icelanders even eat quite a bit of rotten shark.

[jinnamys]

From Blackcat's link:

"Fish are for the most part absent from the assemblages at both Settlements. This presents a bit of a puzzle, for why would the Norse not fish when they were so close to the coast?"

That same link does mention it's possible that fish remains were dumped elsewhere, or back into the sea.

-Arrian

[allemnendup]

Originally posted by Arrian

That same link does mention it's possible that fish remains were dumped elsewhere, or back into the sea.

-Arrian That just doesn't make sense in the least. People are lazy and they dump their trash where they dump all their other trash. To think that over 500 years no one decided "**** it, it is cold, I'll toss my trash in the same heap has all the other trash" is stupid. As is assuming starving people wouldn't have taken advantage of food if they could have.

The more logical explanation is that they would have gotten fish if they could but found they could not. I.E. that the lack of timber meant they couldn't build traditional wooden European ships and, for what ever reason, they never adopted native technology like small bone & skin boats. We're talking about an island which is 90% covered by ice.

[sEe]

Their pet otters ate the leftovers.

[infinkPoode]

Originally posted by Victor Galis


No, Greenland = Cuba
I thought Cuba created gold in another way though, by becoming a valuable sugar plantation colony during the latter part of colonial era.

[outfinofulpv]

Originally posted by MrFun



I thought Cuba created gold in another way though, by becoming a valuable sugar plantation colony during the latter part of colonial era. Yes, but in the context of this story: Cortez launched his invasion of Mexico from Cuba, taking with him a large proportion of the men of the colony at that time. The governor forbid him to do so because the loss of those men could have doomed the colony and it was a super risky venture. Cortez just disobeyed him and sailed off.

Greenland would have been in a very similar situation had they chosen to invade Vinland in force and wipe out the skrælingjar.

That and without the benefit of 500 more years worth of military technology they would have needed more men than Cortez did.

[RarensussyRen]

I thought the Spanish under Cortez had to flee after killing the Aztec leader and when they returned disease had decimated the Aztecs.

Its unlikely but possible the Vikes disposed of fish remains in the ocean to ensure more fishing success, kinda like a ritual to ensure the success of future harvests. I doubt it, maybe they just lacked the materials to build fishing boats so they relied more on the land.