[budumol]

But in the case of advising an Orthodox Christian to attend a Roman Catholic parish, you are treading very close to heresy. Yes, one could argue this is merely a pastoral concern, but there's a doctrinal reason Orthodox are forbidden by the canons and Fathers from attendance at non-Orthodox churches. And to advocate the opposite is to question the ecclesiological and soteriological exclusivity of the Church.

I don't agree, at least not entirely. The context of the situation is key to determining whether or not that is true.

Example: I know of a young Orthodox gentleman who attends college. He has no Orthodox church nearby, and has no transportation suitable to get to any of the closest Orthodox churches. He knows of no other Orthodox on campus. He eagerly took advantage of the one opportunity he had to get a ride to an Orthodox church for liturgy, but the opportunity has not re-occurred. When back home on breaks, he faithfully attends his home parish with his family.

When on campus, he attends a nearby Lutheran church, as it is the closest thing to Orthodoxy available. His attendance there does not "question the ecclesiological and soteriological exclusivity of the Church"; rather, it is a concession to a recognized personal weakness - namely, a serious inability to self-motivate. If he has to do Typika by himself, he won't. But if he attends a church - even a heterodox church - he is much more likely to stay at least somewhat consistent in his Orthodox prayers and devotions.

This is why the pastoral dimension is key. The pastor must look at the person, both strengths and weaknesses, and try to discern what course of action is most conducive to that person's continued progress towards salvation. For someone else in the same situation but with different strengths and weaknesses, a different prescription would probably be in order, just as two patients with the same disease might need different medicines depending on other factors.

In Christ,
Michael

[SarSerceSaice]

The Fathers recognize communion in prayer as oneness of mind; that is why we are forbidden from worshipping with non-Orthodox. This is so established in the Church (canonically, theologically, spiritually) as to make citations unnecessary.

I wouldn't say your friend is questioning the ecclesiological foundations of the Church, either. However, he is not a priest or bishop, educated in such matters. Clergy are fully aware of the implications in attending non-Orthodox services.

Attending non-Orthodox services, in the eyes of everything I have ever encountered in Orthodoxy, is not a good prescription for any disease.

A good printed source on Orthodox relations with non-Orthodox is The Church Fathers on Love in Truth, by Constantine Zalalas.

[exhibeKed]

I wouldn't say your friend is questioning the ecclesiological foundations of the Church, either. However, he is not a priest or bishop, educated in such matters. Clergy are fully aware of the implications in attending non-Orthodox services.

Yep. And, out of the small handful of people I know of in similar situations, at least two (maybe more) have the blessing/permission of their priest to do what they are doing.

[Pszinygv]

What you are both saying has some truth to it, so I don't want to dismiss it entirely. But we should also be hesitant about accepting it without qualification. St. John Climacus tells us the following….

St. John is telling us here that we must be obedient even in those cases when our guide seems to us to be in error. We must accept all consequences of this.

Yet you must not overlook St. John’s words of caution in regard to selecting a spiritual father in the first place:

St. John Climacus said:
When motives of humility and real longing for salvation decide us to bend our neck and entrust ourselves to another in the Lord, before entering upon this life, if there is any vice and pride in us, we ought first to question and examine, and even, so to speak, test our helmsman, so as not to mistake the sailor for the pilot, a sick man for a doctor, a passionate for a dispassionate man, the sea for a harbor, and so bring about the speedy shipwreck of our soul.
Similarly, St. Symeon the New Theologian cautions:
If you wish to renounce the world and learn the life of the Gospel, do not surrender (entrust) yourself to an inexperienced or passionate master, lest instead of the life of the Gospel you learn a diabolic life. For the teaching of good teachers is good, while the teaching of bad teachers is bad. Bad seeds invariably produce bad fruits...

Every blind man who undertakes to guide others is a deceiver or quack, and those who follow him are cast into the pit of destruction, according to the word of the Lord, If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a hole (Matthew 15:14).
It is true that both are referring to monastic obedience, but laypeople must be just as cautious in selecting a spiritual father. The point is simply that we ourselves have a responsibility to know our Faith and to find a spiritual father who upholds the principles of our Faith and is capable of leading us to dispassion and illumination by virtue of their own experience in battling against the passions. As I mentioned before, ordination and consecration do not impart infallibility, and absolute unquestioning obedience should never be demanded of a layperson. In the case of this thread’s subject, I cannot honestly imagine any spiritual father insisting that an Orthodox person attend a Roman Catholic or Protestant church. Perhaps one would suggest this, but not insist. My point is that even if it is suggested by a priest or bishop does not necessarily mean that doing so will be best for a person’s soul. If a person follows the suggestion in obedience to their spiritual father, as long as they maintain contact with their spiritual father he should ideally be able to determine the effect that this participation is having on a person’s soul and would counsel that person to discontinue attending a non-Orthodox parish if that person seems like he is being influenced by their heterodox beliefs. Nevertheless, while someone’s spiritual father may recommend this course, if one only finds condemnation of such an act (worshipping in non-Orthodox churches with non-Orthodox people) in the canons and writings of the saints and Fathers, and can find no examples permitting such an act in the lives or writings of the saints and Fathers, then one should seriously consider why they would commit this act even if they were able to get a blessing from their spiritual father to do so.

[moohassinny]

We need to be careful with our souls and realize that our spiritual enemies use all sorts of subtle tactics to defeat and destroy us. I think that, at non-Orthodox churches especially (and sadly at certain Orthodox churches) one can find a lot which can damage the soul. But the Orthodox churches have the advantage of the holy sacraments, and the non-Orthodox churches do not have this. So, what does one gain by visiting a non-Orthodox church when one cannot get to an Orthodox church over and above one's prayers at home? I think it's critical to look at that. Are you going to a non-Orthodox church to feel better about yourself because you feel bad about not being able to get to an Orthodox church? Are you going to a non-Orthodox church because "at least it's something churchy on a Sunday morning"? Are you going there to be fed spiritually? If the answer is yes to these, there are serious problems to consider. First, if your circumstances dictate, by God's providence, that you cannot get to an Orthodox church as often as you like, there is no shame in this. God's grace is perfectly capable of visiting you when you pray and struggle in Orthodox manner at home, remembering God with contrition and thanksgiving. You may not be able to receive the holy sacraments as often, but this is by God's providence and you accept it with thanksgiving and patience. If you go elsewhere because "at least it's something churchy" or to be fed spiritually, you have to realize that much of what goes on in non-Orthodox churches is contrary to the Orthodox faith or can cause you subtly to waiver in your faith. This is the same with non-Orthodox spiritual books, bible studies, etc. The greatest caution is needed; you are playing with strange fire. Granted, there is some truth there, but there is also falsehood and you may not be able to tell the difference--it's very subtle oftentimes and one should not ever trust oneself too much. If you stay with the Orthodox Church, attending only Orthodox churches for services and prayers (unless you are called by some necessity--not desire or curiosity--to go elsewhere for some relative's somethingorother) and pray in Orthodox manner at home as best you can, God will help you and you will not feel cheated spiritually.

I really object to the wisdom of pastoral reasoning that would suggest that, because he knows someone's not going to pray at home, a spiritual father recommends or blesses going to a non-Orthodox church. That really looks like spiritual malpractice.

[MineOffedOvex]

As you wish. I am not willing to pass that kind of judgement on those persons and their spiritual physicians when I am not "licensed" or qualified to practice spiritual medicine myself. But I would expect any competent spiritual physician to have already taken into account the issues raised, and weighed them against the specifics of the situation and the strengths and weaknesses of the person(s) in question, before "signing off" on such a course of action. I know that to be true in one of the cases I mentioned (I can only assume it in the other since I heard few details).

[EspnaConCam]

St. John of San Francisco on attending non-Orthodox services:

(From a 1970 letter written by Metropolitan Philaret, First Hierarch of the ROCOR, to Archbishop Averky of Syracuse, abbot of Holy Trinity Monastery and rector of Holy Trinity Seminary)

"Two days ago, His Eminence [St.] John was the subject of a conversation I had with a person His Eminence had known as far back as Yugoslavia. When the war struck in the Forties, followed by post-war chaos, this man had to travel the world extensively to survive. When he met His Eminence again several years later, he proceeded to tell him about his vicissitudes. One of the things he said was: For three years, I had to live in a place without an Orthodox temple, so I went to the Copts. What? You went to a Coptic church? asked His Eminence John. Intimidated (so he says) by the strict tone of His Eminence's voice, the man replied: Yes, I did, but I never attended any of their liturgies. Did you attend their all-night services? Yes, I did, Your Eminence. Have you repented this? No, I haven't, but the thing is I never prayed during their all-night services; I only attended them. Here's what you must do: next time you go to confession, make sure you repent of having attended a heretical service, concluded His Eminence John."

[hasasnn2345tv]

I suppose we are to infer from the above dialogue a one-size-fits-all rule?

[sobre]

I suppose we are to infer from the above dialogue a one-size-fits-all rule?

Yes. I beleive so.

I have not seen many Saints encouraging Orthodox to attend Non-Orthodox services.

[exchpaypalgold]

Come to think of it I haven't seen many saints doing that either.

Okay, if we can get one more forum member to say no Orthodox person should ever attend a non-Orthodox service under any circumstances, then we can make it a Man Law!

My favorite Man Law is if a group of men are watching a football game and one gets up out of the recliner to get a beer, if he brings back a beer for everyone else then the recliner is saved. But, if he only gets a beer for himself he loses his rights to the recliner.

[Golotop]

Obviously the man does not have enough recliners. Or he does not have one of these must-haves.

I'll chime in for the Man Law thing if that will help the poll. But when Christmas time comes around and my mom asks me to go to her church with her to attend their Christmas service; guess where I will be... No, I will not miss my service for hers as they don't overlap, but if I want any of her mouth watering pecan pie on Christmas Day, guess where I will be showing the Love of Christ that night?

Paul

[Cucoulkrory]

If an Orthodox Christian with no Orthodox parish near enough to attend, were given a blessing to attend a non-Orthodox church, that would be an act of economia (note that we're only talking about attending; receiving communion there is universally considered a no-no). Regarding economia, I would tend to agree with this statement by Patriarch of Antioch Cyril IV:

... occasionally, the spiritual heads make use of economy and condescension out of necessity, ensuring Piety is not preyed upon, in order to avoid greater evils and their consequences, which include the spiritual ruin of the Christians; and this is [meant to] take place after careful consideration and only up to the point where economy and condescension are reasonably needed, so that we do not end up with a paralyzing invalidation of the written legal stipulations and well-kept ecclesiastical traditions and customs that in turn become stumbling blocks and causes for [spiritual] loss. So - the application of such economy in the case of an isolated Orthodox, would be predicated on a careful consideration which concluded that the spiritual dangers of attending the non-Orthodox church are much less than the spiritual dangers of not attending anywhere. We're not talking about a whim or a preference, but a strategy to optimally deal with a spiritually dangerous situation. And that is exactly what I saw in the two situations I know the most about.

I fully agree that the vast majority of isolated Orthodox should not attend non-Orthodox churches, but should rather rely on private prayers and perhaps reader's services. I simply believe that "no one, never" is an overstatement, and that there are indeed situations where such economia can legitimately be applied.

In Christ,
Michael

P.S. - As an aside, someone could always ask the OCA's Bishop Melchisedek what he thinks about the issue, since he was raised in that situation. His bio mentions that his mother was Orthodox (it's not explicit about his father), but with no Orthodox church in their hometown they went to a local Protestant church except on some important feast days when they traveled to the nearest Orthodox parish.

[Marinausa]

I have not seen many Saints encouraging Orthodox to attend Non-Orthodox services.

Many? Are there any? The award will go to the first person who can find even a single instance where a saint advises an Orthodox Christian to attend a non-Orthodox Church when there are no Orthodox churches nearby.

St. Raphael of Brooklyn certainly forbade Orthodox from attending Anglican or any other parish that was not Orthodox, even at a time when Orthodox parishes were much more scarce in America than they are today:

See:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/hawaweeny.aspx

In Christ,

Jason

[asypecresty]

If an Orthodox Christian with no Orthodox parish near enough to attend, were given a blessing to attend a non-Orthodox church, that would be an act of economia (note that we're only talking about attending; receiving communion there is universally considered a no-no).

It has always been a "universal no-no" to attend non-Orthodox services as well.

The Church is the bride of Christ. Trying to legitimize attendence at non-Orthodox services through oikonomia is like saying, through oikonomia, one can be given a blessing to commit adultery if you are separated from your living spouse for an extended period of time.

[enteltcheft]

The most natural and friendly relations between the Orthodox and Western Christians occurred with the Episcopalians, since they were not outwardly proselytistic and were openly helpful, morally and financially, to the plight of the immigrants. Contacts between Canterbury and Moscow dated back to Metropolitan Philaret's tenure and by the turn of the twentieth century had grown particularly fruitful, with individual hierarchs of the Russian Church privately expressing hopes for a corporate reunion of the two confessions and recognizing the validity of Anglican Orders. Among these hierarchs were the progressive Archbishops of North America Tikhon, Platon, and Evdokim.

Orthodox hierarchs and clergymen were regularly invited to address the annual general conventions of the Episcopal Church.

In 1910 Raphael was invited, and he declared, "I hope the day is not far off when we will no longer say, 'our church, your church,' our bishops, your bishops,' but will say, our church, our bishops,' just as we now say, 'the Head of the Church is our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Prompted and supportedby Archbishop Platon, Raphael took two concrete steps towards that end. First, on October 13,1908, he accepted a vice-presidency in the newly formed Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Church Union. More significantly, in June of 1910, he authorized Episcopalian ministrations to Orthodox Christians in a number of carefully delineated situations where they could not avail themselves of the services of an Orthodox priest.

Granted, this arrangement did not last long, since St. Raphael severed his connections with the Episcopalians upon discovery of "low church" Episcopalianism.

Jeremy

[shemadagaswer]

St. Raphael, under the influence of the nascent ecumenical movement, did initially allow some innovations in regards to contacts with non-Orthodox. However, he recognized his error and corrected his previous directives, and was very clear on what Orthodox should do when isolated from their parishes. Quote from St. Raphael:

... I direct all Orthodox people residing in any community not to seek or to accept the ministrations of the Sacraments and rites from any clergy excepting those of the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, for the Apostolic command that the Orthodox should not commune in ecclesiastical matters with those who are not of the same household of faith (Gal. 6:10), is clear: "Any bishop, or presbyter or deacon who will pray with heretics, let him be anathematized; and if he allows them as clergymen to perform any service, let him be deposed." (Apostolic Canon 45) "Any bishop, or presbyter who accepts Baptism or the Holy Sacrifice from heretics, we order such to be deposed, for what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" (Apostolic Canon 46)

As to members of the Holy Orthodox Church living in areas beyond the reach of Orthodox clergy, I direct that the ancient custom of our Holy Church be observed, namely, in cases of extreme necessity, that is, danger of death, children may be baptized by some pious Orthodox layman, or even by the parent of the child, by immersion three times in the names of the (Persons of the) Holy Trinity, and in case of death such baptism is valid; but, if the child should live, he must be brought to an Orthodox priest for the Sacrament of Chrismation.

In the case of the death of an Orthodox person where no priest of the Holy Orthodox Church can be had, a pious layman may read over the corpse, for the comfort of the relatives and the instruction of the persons present, Psalm 90 and Psalm 118, and add thereto the Trisagion ("Holy God, Holy Mighty," etc.). But let it be noted that as soon as possible the relative must notify some Orthodox bishop or priest and request him to serve the Liturgy and Funeral for the repose of the soul of the departed in his cathedral or parish Church.

As to Holy Matrimony, if there be any parties united in wedlock outside the pale of the holy Orthodox Church because of the remoteness of Orthodox centers from their home, I direct that as soon as possible they either invite an Orthodox priest or go to where he resides and receive from his hands the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony; otherwise they will be considered excommunicated until they submit to the Orthodox Church's rule.

I further direct that Orthodox Christians should not make it a practice to attend the services of other religious bodies, so that there be no confusion concerning the teaching or doctrines. Instead, I order that the head of each household, or a member, may read the special prayers which can be found in the Hours in the Holy Orthodox Service Book, and such other devotional books as have been set forth by the authority of the Holy Orthodox Church.

[LarryRda]

The Church is the bride of Christ. Trying to legitimize attendence at non-Orthodox services through oikonomia is like saying, through oikonomia, one can be given a blessing to commit adultery if you are separated from your living spouse for an extended period of time.

This statement is clever-by-half and borders on an ignorant statement.

Granted, the more I learn about Orthodoxy the more I realize how much I don't know! But, Mike has made a very balanced series of posts here, and I think this topic is like many others that we have had here on Monachos in the sense of some not allowing room for exceptions. As well, all quotes traded back and forth to support one's position aside (which is no different from Protestants trading Bible verses back and forth), it has been brought to my attention in the past, by a very reliable source, that in the relationship between the spiritual father and the spiritual child often times exceptions are not written about or recorded. This is because, as Michael has said repeatedly, they are just that . . . exceptions to the rule.

This goes with other teachings, especially some high level acetic teachings in the monastic realm. Some things that are taught and are practiced in Orthodoxy are purposefully not made very public or recorded in print so that folks will not dabble or take it upon themselves to venture out where they should not venture.

In such cases what can be appropriate for one is not appropriate for another (or most). This is something that either we understand or we do not understand. This is something that we either accept or we reject. For the ones who reject such thinking, you might as well put your head down and try to break through a brick wall as to change their minds. Regardless of the faith tradition or denomination or system one adheres to, I think there will always be those who think we must all walk alike and talk alike and sometimes even look alike . . . but this is not Orthodoxy, this is not the Orthodox Way and those who teach such things do violence to the very thing they think they are defending.

But, there is nothing new under the sun (including mindsets). Now I gotta go before I reach for my "F" word in my holster--(cue sinister music) viz. *fundy* (insert EEK icon).

PS Bonus Pack: Who can tell me what TV Show these lyrics are from?:

They laugh alike, they walk alike,
At times they even talk alike --
You can lose your mind . . .

PSPS Very cool Paul! Yes, not enough recliners :0) Although, for $1,500 I think maybe the $7.99 six-pack cooler on the floor next to the recliner sounds better. But, even here, eventually you will have to get up to use the bathroom and then probably loose the recliner for sure. Maybe you know a way around this?

[risyGreeple]

Very good, thank you for posting that. Returning to the question of what degree of obedience is due to a bishop from the laity under him: during the (brief) period when St. Raphael authorized his people to receive "ministrations" from Episcopal clergy, were the laity correct to receive these ministrations, or should they have refused them despite their authorization?

My assumption is that they should have obeyed their bishop even if they had personal reservations, and even if St. Raphael was wrong to authorize these ministrations. But perhaps I'm wrong about that; good arguments seem to have been presented on both sides.

I'm not well-versed in the Canons, so I'm stepping somewhat outside of my realm of comfort by posting this. The following Canon was approved by name at the Quinisext Council:

Canon II of the Commonitory of the Same which Ammon Received on Account of Lycus
Let [the priests] who have communicated with the Arians, be retained or rejected, as the custom of every church is; but so, that other orthodox [priests] be ordained, though the others continue. As the orthodox bishops did in Thebais, so let it be in other cities. They who were ordained by Bishop Apollo, and afterwards communicated with the Arians, if they did it of their own accord, let them be censured; but if they only did it in obedience to the bishop, let them be continued; but if all the people abdicate them, others must be ordained. And if Bistus the priest be found to have committed uncleanness with a woman dismissed from her husband, let him not be permitted to be a priest. But this is no prejudice to the bishop who ordained him, if he did it ignorantly; since the Holy Synod commands unworthy men to be ejected, though they be not convicted until after ordination.

This Canon suggests that those Priests who were in communion with the Arian heretics were "censured" (probably excommunicated) if they were not acting under the direction of their bishop, but were allowed to continue their ministry if they were acting under the direction of their bishop. What can we make of this?

Jeremy

[johnuioyer]

Many? Are there any? The award will go to the first person who can find even a single instance where a saint advises an Orthodox Christian to attend a non-Orthodox Church when there are no Orthodox churches nearby.

St. Raphael of Brooklyn certainly forbade Orthodox from attending Anglican or any other parish that was not Orthodox, even at a time when Orthodox parishes were much more scarce in America than they are today:

See:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/hawaweeny.aspx

In Christ,

Jason

Exactly my point. I used "many" as a figure of speach.

Another point is, say for instance there are no Orthodox Churches around and the only church around for the Orthodox individual is a charismatic or other non-liturgical denomination.

Could we see Orthodox that are isolated going to just any church....say one that considers Orthodoxy as heretical?

[JAMES PIETERSE]

Could we see Orthodox that are isolated going to just any church....say one that considers Orthodoxy as heretical?

Why would you? One based on the below and two because all they will try to do is "re-educate" you into their faith.

I further direct that Orthodox Christians should not make it a practice to attend the services of other religious bodies, so that there be no confusion concerning the teaching or doctrines. Instead, I order that the head of each household, or a member, may read the special prayers which can be found in the Hours in the Holy Orthodox Service Book, and such other devotional books as have been set forth by the authority of the Holy Orthodox Church.