LOGO
General Discussion Undecided where to post - do it here.

Reply to Thread New Thread
Old 12-11-2009, 05:24 AM   #41
Marc Spilkintin

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
538
Senior Member
Default
I smell a trap! That would only be part of it, but I suppose, yes. But what I am really trying to say is that it is not really scientific in that it is not comprehensive and it is oriented entirely toward the self as an immanent structure. Let's use the exercise and health crusades in the U.S. as an analogy. People are gobbling vitamins and running marathons like crazy in order to somehow become complete, satisfied persons. There is nothing wrong with a little cardio activity, it's the theory behind it that's the problem. It claims to be more comprehensive than it is, and the orientation is all wrong.
Marc Spilkintin is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 05:38 AM   #42
SingleMan

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
459
Senior Member
Default
Yet when someone attempts to do that, you seem to deny them the right to do that, because they lack first hand knowledge at the phenomenal level.
Never mind first hand knowledge, the critiques of qigong I've seen thus far seem to lack even third-hand knowledge. Why should anyone take seriously an opinion from someone who is willfully ignorant of his subject, and who continually makes one false assumption after another?

The problem with things like qigong is that it is based on a false theory as to what a person is, what the structure of the mind/body/soul complex is. What precisely is that false theory? Please outline it, because I've never heard of a unitary theory as to what the structure of the mind/body/soul complex is, according to traditional Chinese medicine. The only really fundamental point is that there exists some kind of material energy in the body (qi) which is important in maintaining physical health, and which can be manipulated by bodily movements, acupuncture, dietary choices, thoughts, etc. That other practices and considerations are important, no one denies. You earlier made the assertion that qigong is "designed to connect you to the Great Spirit." That would be news to most qigong practitioners!

Because the person is not an immanent thing, nor are the internal processes of a human person immanent structures. They incorporate both immanent and transcendent structures. And if you can demonstrate how qigong or Chinese medicine somehow inherently contradicts or excludes this understanding, then you may have a valid argument.

Now, is there a problem with Western medicine? Sure there is. It borders on idolatry. In fact, one might go so far as to say that it has already become idolatrous. Something called "wellness" has now become the secret to a happy life. And somehow a long life has become the sine qua non of health. This divorce between theology and medicine has put modern medicine into a crisis state, and modern man in a crisis state. This, however, is not a justification for oriental medicine. It is an argument for re-uniting Orthodoxy and medicine, so that spiritual health and attunement can be properly integrated with the various breakthroughs in medical technology. So you concede that "medical technology" can be used, integrated, in a way compatible with Orthodox spirituality, despite the "idolatrous" nature of the scientific milieu whence it emerges. That various practical techniques and discoveries can be useful, even if philosophies and attitudes that helped form them are to be rejected. That is exactly what I am saying about Chinese medicine. Why do the "various breakthroughs in [presumably Western] medical technology" enjoy such a privilege over "oriental" medicine?

I have never here argued for simply taking these practices at face value. I simply believe that there is genuine wisdom about the body and nature in traditional Chinese medicine that can be separated/ modified from its non-Christian roots and integrated into a genuinely healthy approach to the human mind/body/spirit. Hieromonk Damascene's work Christ the Eternal Tao demonstrates amply that it is possible to find wisdom among Chinese philosophers that accords with Orthodox truth, without any kind of syncretism or compromise.

Finally, if you won't listen to me, listen to the wisdom of Saint Basil the great, whose thoughts on pagan literature apply just as well to other areas of knowledge:

Just as it is the chief mission of the tree to bear its fruit in its season, though at the same time it puts forth for ornament the leaves which quiver on its boughs, even so the real fruit of the soul is truth, yet it is not without advantage for it to embrace the pagan wisdom, as also leaves offer shelter to the fruit, and an appearance not untimely. That Moses, whose name is a synonym for wisdom, severely trained his mind in the learning of the Egyptians, and thus became able to appreciate their deity. Similarly, in later days, the wise Daniel is said to have studied the lore of the Chaldaeans while in Babylon, and after that to have taken up the sacred teachings.

Perhaps it is sufficiently demonstrated that such heathen learning is not unprofitable for the soul; I shall then discuss next the extent to which one may pursue it. To begin with the poets, since their writings are of all degrees of excellence, you should not study all of their poems without omitting a single word. When they recount the words and deeds of good men, you should both love and imitate them, earnestly emulating such conduct. But when they portray base conduct, you must flee from them and stop up your ears, as Odysseus is said to have fled past the song of the sirens, for familiarity with evil writings paves the way for evil deeds. Therefore the soul must be guarded with great care, lest through our love for letters it receive some contamination unawares, as men drink in poison with honey. We shall not praise the poets when they scoff and rail, when they represent fornicators and winebibbers, when they define blissfulness by groaning tables and wanton songs. Least of all shall we listen to them when they tell us of their gods, and especially when they represent them as being many, and not at one among themselves
SingleMan is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 07:41 AM   #43
Ternneowns

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
541
Senior Member
Default
I think the conflict arises from here: "The only really fundamental point is that there exists some kind of material energy in the body (qi) which is important in maintaining physical health, and which can be manipulated by bodily movements, acupuncture, dietary choices, thoughts, etc." Orthodoxy has a very different perspective and traditional knowledge about this that is inherently in conflict.
Ternneowns is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 07:45 AM   #44
gundorana

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
502
Senior Member
Default
"But I'm always a little amused by people who flatly reject any form of qigong, yoga, etc. as incompatible with Christianity, while uncritically accepting modern Western medicine and science."

First off, I don't think you really are amused. But second, you have set up a straw man argument here. I specifically mentioned why Orthodox ought to be critical of the current state of western medicine as idolatrous.
gundorana is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 07:53 AM   #45
CorpoRasion

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
411
Senior Member
Default
Possibly, it is the thinking on this from the book that Father David has recommended, namely it is "as Elder Fr. Paisios had said repeatedly in this book that there is only God and the devil," and as the Elder has said the things in the category we are talking about as well as "acupuncture and massage techniques must either be of God or of the devil." Could this be it?
I would like to refresh your awareness of what I have actually said - and perhaps clarify a little:

Also, as an attempt to apply a general context for the question, please read the book The Gurus, the Young Man and Elder Paisios I think that even with the many different eastern spiritual disciplines, this book provides a good foundation from which to proceed.
and

I would strongly recommend that you read the book about Fr Paisios and the gurus (that I mention above). ... I don't say that this is an analysis or even an argument - but it does help establish a foundation for any Orthodox Christian, especially those of us in the west, to look at what we do not understand
I did not say that this book would provide an answer - but rather that it provides a "foundation from which to proceed" and later "I don't say that this is an analysis or even an argument -but it does help establish a foundation..." This book provides a basis upon which an Orthodox Christian can then formulate appropriate questions which will serve to help evaluate and make decisions about practices rooted in primarily hinduism but also other similar spiritual disciplines which have a similar cultural formation. What I am trying to say is that one must first develop a sense of discernment formed by the Orthodox Church. Secondly one must have an educated perspective on the practice in question. Thirdly that sense of discernment must be applied not only to the practice in question, but in a pastoral manner which takes into account the spiritual condition of the person involved. IOW - there is no single black or white one size fits all answer - this is in its end a pastoral question. There is, however, an appropriate avenue of investigation for all of us to develop that perspective - and that avenue is to investigate both Orthodox teaching and the spiritual nature of qigong in depth. This information and perspective is then a tool to be used by spiritual fathers to intelligently guide their spiritual children.

Fr David Moser
CorpoRasion is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 08:00 AM   #46
AlistDakisa

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
537
Senior Member
Default
But most of the faithful and, frankly, most clergy just don't have the time or energy for that, Father. So it seems to me that some general principles are called for as guidelines. For what it's worth, my general principle would be, it's a distraction.
AlistDakisa is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 08:15 AM   #47
spamkillerj

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
422
Senior Member
Default
Elder Sophrony and other elders did resort to western medicine. I think it highly unlikely Elder Sophrony and his like would have resorted to qigong or anything like it.
spamkillerj is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 08:45 AM   #48
AlissBart

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
480
Senior Member
Default
I'll stipulate, for the sake of argument, that qigong is just medicine. Nothing else; nothing more. It does not involve cutting and stitching like Western Medicine. It doesn't involve taking drugs (OK, maybe medicinal herbs may be a part of it, but I'm talking about pharmaceuticals). It is about certain bodily disciplines designed to manipulate body energy to achieve physical health. This manipulation includes thoughts. What are thoughts?
AlissBart is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 09:22 AM   #49
@Aerodyno@

Join Date
Nov 2005
Posts
379
Senior Member
Default
I would like to refresh your awareness of what I have actually said - and perhaps clarify a little . . . I did not say that this book would provide an answer . . .
Fr. David, I don't understand why you are refreshing my awareness and attempting to clarify what you said and what you didn't say.

All I said in my post in reference to you was that you recommended a book.

Otherwise I wonder if you are aware that in your clarification/conclusion today about this being a pastoral matter viz.:

So, in this, the essential issue does not seem to be one of distraction but one of direction . . . and in this the essential issue becomes one of pastoral care and guidance, as opposed to a black and white answer in the fashion of one-size-fits all. Possibly, this is at the heart of what I write in these threads, in terms of seekers and pastors as opposed to seekers and proclamations. And, I think this is how most of these threads usually end up (after favorite quotes are traded from the fathers and saints), it is concluded that this is a personal matter of spiritual guidance for the seeker from his spiritual father or her mother.
So, in this I think we really are on the same page here.
@Aerodyno@ is offline


Old 12-11-2009, 12:38 PM   #50
CruzIzabella

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
372
Senior Member
Default
A bit of searching around the web seems to indicate that the wider world of Orthodoxy isn't in any more agreement on this type of thing than we are here. I found clergy views, whether on qigong itself or on TCM in general, ranging from "avoid it" through "consult your spiritual father" to "no problem, just use discernment" - basically, the whole spectrum.

One thing that did surprise me a little - in my web-searching, I quickly found two Orthodox priests who practiced TCM, and one of them has conducted qigong workshops. Take it for what it's worth.

In any case, it seems that the correct question is, "For this particular person, how will the practice of qigong - in the particular way they are considering practicing or receiving it - affect them in their Christian walk? Will it help, hinder, or be neutral?" And that's a question which - as Rick and Fr David have pointed out - can really only be answered by the person themself under the guidance of their spiritual father.

In Christ,
Michael
CruzIzabella is offline


Old 09-01-2017, 10:03 AM   #51
20170425yuanyuan

Join Date
Apr 2017
Posts
395
Senior Member
Default
helinlin 2017.9.2
ralph lauren sale clearance
cheap ugg boots
ugg outlet
pandora charms
jordan retro 11
ugg sandals
kate spade outlet
canada goose outlet
cheap uggs
fitflops
coach factory outlet
michael kors handbags
burberry sale
oakley sunglasses
cheap oakley sunglasses
christian louboutin
canada goose uk
ugg boots
michael kors handbags
nike shoes
christian louboutin outlet
coach factory outlet
adidas yeezy boost
ugg australia
ultra boost
cheap ray ban sunglasses
adidas nmd
beats by dr dre
birkenstock sandals
louis vuitton outlet
canada goose outlet
pandora charms
mlb jerseys wholesale
kate spade outlet store
nmd adidas
nike cortez
coach outlet
pandora
cheap mlb jerseys
michael kors handbags
michael kors factory outlet
coach factory outlet
polo ralph lauren
cheap jordans
longchamp uk
coach outlet
cheap nfl jerseys wholesale
mulberry bags
cheap mlb jerseys
timberland outlet
adidas shoes
kate spade
canada goose sale
adidas yeezy
coach outlet store
michael kors outlet
coach outlet
polo ralph lauren
christian louboutin outlet
adidas outlet
polo ralph lauren outlet
ray ban sunglasses
moncler jackets outlet
toms shoes
coach factory outlet
uggs
adidas superstar
coach factory outlet
moncler outlet
burberry outlet canada
coach outlet store
ugg sale
ugg outlet
uggs on sale
louboutin shoes
michael kors outlet
cheap nfl jerseys
polo ralph lauren
oakley sunglasses
cheap jordans
coach outlet
adidas nmd
ralph lauren outlet
cheap jordans
ugg outlet store
ugg outlet
cheap ugg boots
nfl jerseys wholesale
uggs canada
michael kors handbags
nike outlet
moncler outlet
birkenstock shoes
canada goose jackets
coach outlet
louboutin shoes
ugg boots
coach outlet
longchamp outlet
ugg boots
longchamp bags
michael kors outlet
coach outlet
pandora outlet
coach outlet
yeezy boost
coach outlet online
coach outlet
cheap ray ban sunglasses
ugg boots on sale
birkenstocks
doudoune moncler
ralph lauren uk
michael kors outlet
ralph lauren uk
superdry uk
ray ban sunglasses discount
pandora charms
adidas yeezy
north face outlet online
kate spade outlet
adidas nmd
ugg outlet store
christian louboutin outlet
coach outlet
rayban
pandora jewelry
canada goose jackets
fitflops sale
pandora charms uk
ugg slippers
ugg boots canada
hermes bags
adidas shoes
discount oakley sunglasses
michael kors outlet
michael kors outlet
pandora jewelry
ugg sale
nmd shoes
cheap jordans
kate spade handbags
ralph lauren outlet
air max 2018
ugg outlet
gucci outlet
hermes handbags
pandora uk
valentino shoes outlet
canada goose
ugg outlet store
tory burch outlet store
christian louboutin outlet
ralph lauren uk
coach outlet
louis vuitton outlet
mlb jerseys cheap
ralph lauren outlet
kate spade bags
pandora charms
hermes handbags
nike outlet
ray ban sunglasses
canada goose outlet
pandora charms
pandora charms sale
ugg outlet
hermes handbags
superdry
canada goose jackets
ugg outlet
ray ban sunglasses
coach canada
ugg sandals
burberry sale
toms shoes outlet
ralph lauren outlet
longchamp uk
canada goose outlet
yeezy boost 350
nike air max
yeezy 350 boost
yeezy boost
coach bags
ugg boots on sale
nike outlet online
beats by dre
tory burch outlet
nike shoes
coach outlet
canada goose
nike outlet store
ugg boots
birkenstock sandals
cheap ray bans
michael kors outlet online
nike shoes
polo ralph lauren outlet online
ugg boots for women
moncler jackets
christian louboutin
pandora outlet
canada goose jackets
canada goose sale
cheap uggs
north face outlet
coach outlet store
pandora charms
ugg boots
birkenstock outlet
nmd adidas
louis vuitton factory outlet
burberry outlet
ugg boots outlet
polo ralph lauren
coach factory outlet
ray ban sunglasses
red bottoms shoes
kate spade
ralph lauren sale clearance
ralph lauren uk
coach outlet store online clearances
michael kors outlet clearance
coach handbags
ray ban sunglasses
longchamp handbags
pandora uk
mulberry uk
mulberry handbags
michael kors outlet clearance
adidas yeezy
ugg boots
ray ban sunglasses
jordan shoes
adidas shoes
red bottom shoes
ralph lauren outlet online
ugg outlet
canada goose sale
toms outlet
michael kors uk
adidas outlet
michael kors outlet store
yeezy boost
pandora charms sale clearance
michael kors outlet
birkenstock sandals
pandora jewelry outlet
canada goose outlet
adidas outlet
coach outlet
pandora outlet
louboutin shoes
polo ralph lauren outlet
michael kors canada
kate spade handbag
coach factory outlet online
moncler outlet
michael kors outlet
discount ray ban sunglasses
michael kors outlet
nike store
cheap oakley sunglasses
coach factory outlet
air jordans
coach outlet
ugg ustralia
michael kors canada
toms shoes outlet
oakley sunglasses
moncler
coach canada
james harden shoes
coach factory outlet
ray ban sunglasses
mulberry outlet
coach outlet
cheap uggs
coach outlet
cat boots
coach factory outlet
birkenstocks
pandora jewelry
nike huarache
ugg ustralia
hermes birkin
nike shoes for men
coach outlet store
birkenstock sandals
harden vol 1
canada goose sale
coach factory outlet
ugg boots
supreme
jordans
red bottoms
ugg outlet
cheap jordans free shipping
canada goose outlet
ray ban sunglasses discount
canada goose outlet
adidas yeezy
ralph lauren sale clearance
louis vuitton outlet store
ugg outlet
ralph lauren outlet
uggs outlet
coach outlet
cheap mlb jerseys
pandora jewelry
longchamp handbags
mbt shoes
toms shoes
coach factory outlet
pandora jewelry
cheap nfl jerseys
michael kors outlet store
adidas yeezy boost
ralph lauren outlet
cheap uggs
adidas nmd
coach factory outlet
valentino shoes
pandora jewelry
oakley sunglasses
coach factory outlet
jordan retro
moncler outlet
canada goose
coach outlet
coach outlet store
christian louboutin
ralph lauren outlet
supreme uk
burberry handbags
michael kors handbags
yeezy boost 350
michael kors outlet
helinlin 2017.9.2
20170425yuanyuan is offline



Reply to Thread New Thread

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:42 AM.
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Design & Developed by Amodity.com
Copyright© Amodity