[ashleyjoseph]

[banditorfv]

Noticed how the tanks to the rear aren't completely colored?

[lalpphilalk]

Originally posted by mactbone
Camouflage isn't painted identically. It would kind of defeat the purpose... exactly

[WapSaibiar]

God, traffic was terrible that day. I heard it was snarled for miles around the Beijing Central Parkway because some douchebag stood in the street in front of a few trucks and wouldn't move.

I hope they ran that ****er over.

[viagraman]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
God, traffic was terrible that day. I heard it was snarled for miles around the Beijing Central Parkway because some douchebag stood in the street in front of a few trucks and wouldn't move.

I hope they ran that ****er over.

[zzarratusstra]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
God, traffic was terrible that day. I heard it was snarled for miles around the Beijing Central Parkway because some douchebag stood in the street in front of a few trucks and wouldn't move.

I hope they ran that ****er over. Don't worry. With 400 people shot in Tianamman Square, he was probably one of them.

[Pdarasenko]

And interestingly, the one time the video footage was shown in China, the government used it as proof of how the government had been patient with the evil counterrevolutionaries and had not harmed them. I mean, if the Central Government was trully bad, wouldn't they have gunned down or ran over the guy??

[cewIdeatovace]

Originally posted by GePap
Most people in China have probably never seen that picture, and could not tell you were it comes from.

The Central Government has been very successful at erasing history at home. How many Americans could identify pictures of the U.S. Army attacking the Bonus Marcher Camp?

[c2siOlIk]

Originally posted by Q Cubed


I may be a dork, but at least I'm not Texan.

Dorkdom This is it? THIS, is your best shot?

[erelvenewmeva]

Originally posted by Mao


I wonder how true that is. I was in Beijing at the time, and living not far from where it took place (although I was very young), but it seems that everyone on my block had seen that footage. I remember seeing it even. I wonder how well they really are erasing history... Yes, at the time of the events it was shown.

They had a program were last year a group of students in Beijing University, the premier University in China, were shown the photo. They had four students. Only 1 had the slighest recognition of the photo. These people were kids at the time of the incident, so they would not likely remember. But now they are growing up, and they are not seeing that image. That is how you erase history, you make sure the next generation does not see it, and with time, the "memory" vanishes.

[Kimaamighed]

Originally posted by Mao


Heh, I'll dispute PKU being the best university in China later .

At any rate though, that's interesting, since the students would probably be my age and I definitely still recollect the pictures. Maybe it's because I've been in the West, maybe not. Do you think this trend will continue with so many Chinese people leaving China and coming into contact with the West? I mean, when I was in China, the students I talked to all knew what happened on 6-4 (we call it 6-4 in China), all you have to literally do is say the numbers "six four" and they know exactly what you're talking about and the general outline of events. I didn't have a copy of the pic to show them of course. Then again, my experience might be pretty idiosyncratic, I don't know. If you are in college now, then at the time, most people were what? 7 or 8? I do recall seeing some things at that age, but without reenforcement it is mroe easy to forget.

I would think that being in the west, with repeated exposure to the picture does certainly help, as opposed to being in China, with none. More importantly, how many people living out in the country ever saw it? As for Chinese leavcing the country, I think the question would be the purpose. Chinese studying outside of China would certainly come into contact with the Western images of the protests. Just tourists might not have the opportunity- I mean, in what context would they see it?

I wonder how many in the West know exactly what happened in Tiananmen Square, other than the massacre. I mean, how many know the protests before, what they were about, etc. etc. All I know is that Gorbachev visited and spoke to the Chinese leadership, and then a high ranking government official who had advocated opening up the party died, so people gathered to mourn him, and those gatherings got bigger and became a pro-democracy rally that lasted several days, if not a couple of weeks, as more people gathered there. The Party was split on how to handle the whole situation, but at the end of the day the hardliners won the day and eventually they moved the clear the square.

[chuecafressds]

Originally posted by GePap


If you are in college now, then at the time, most people were what? 7 or 8? I do recall seeing some things at that age, but without reenforcement it is mroe easy to forget. Yeah, that's probably true.

I would think that being in the west, with repeated exposure to the picture does certainly help, as opposed to being in China, with none. More importantly, how many people living out in the country ever saw it? As for Chinese leavcing the country, I think the question would be the purpose. Chinese studying outside of China would certainly come into contact with the Western images of the protests. Just tourists might not have the opportunity- I mean, in what context would they see it? Well, the Chinese Diaspora is something somewhat well documented. The ones I'm referring to are the ones studying, as the tourist trade from China is growing, but I still don't think it's really significant.

Also, as an interesting aside about emigration, when Deng relaxed restrictions on Chinese citizens going abroad, his advisors said to him, "But sir, if they leave, many won't come back." Deng apparently looked at this advisor and smiled, replying, "That's OK. They are Chinese. They will come back when China is ready for them." The anecdote really brought my view of Deng a lot higher up. Not that that's neither here nor there, I just thought it was interesting.

[/quote]

All I know is that Gorbachev visited and spoke to the Chinese leadership, and then a high ranking government official who had advocated opening up the party died, so people gathered to mourn him, and those gatherings got bigger and became a pro-democracy rally that lasted several days, if not a couple of weeks, as more people gathered there. The Party was split on how to handle the whole situation, but at the end of the day the hardliners won the day and eventually they moved the clear the square. [/QUOTE]

Yep, that sums it up pretty well, but it's also one-sided. The actions of the students have to be examined too. By the time of the massacre, there were only a fraction of the people there than at its height. I once saw "Gate of Heavenly Peace" (http://www.tsquare.tv/) which I thought was an excellent analysis of the events. It showed both sides of the disaster that was Tiananmen Square. It also showed an interview with the student leader that emerged at the end, a female student. When I saw the interview, my hate and disgust at the communist government was almost equaled by my hate and disgust of her (she now lives in Cambridge IIRC). I now almost put as much responsibility for Tiananmen Square on her as I do on the leadership.

The movement itself was fascinating. At one point students were coming into Beijing at such a pace that "leaders" of the movement (random students who kinda wanted to conscript their own squads from the railway stations) would show up at the railway station, tell a group "OK, we're going to the protest, you'll be XX Brigade [insert clever name here]," but in reality it seems so disorganized and there was a lot of infighting even between the student leaders themselves. When asked about their plans, the military nature of the student protest was interesting to me too. They would pull out maps and say things to the effect of "OK, here we need more troops to protect this flank" etc. etc. The spirit there was fascinating to me, especially the lack of a definition of terms such as "democracy."

I mean, I have a pretty nuanced view of what happened there, and I think I've yet to truly make up my mind about it.

[MidwestMadman]

Originally posted by GePap


I think most American's don't remember what that is. Thought that is a case of history being forgotten through lazyness, not an outright campaign by the government.
Lazyness...

Well, americans are amazingly lazy, but it's quite a bit of a stretch to say that is the only reason it's not remembered.

[LeviBrawn]

Originally posted by General Ludd



Lazyness...

Well, americans are amazingly lazy, but it's quite a bit of a stretch to say that is the only reason it's not remembered. I learned about this event randomly, through a TV documentary of tyhe period. The information about what happened in 1932 is not repressed. There is simply no interest.

[mr.memo]

Originally posted by General Ludd


There is no interest, because it's be FORGOTTEN. It's been forgotten, because it is a blemish on the country and government, just like Tiananmen square is for China.

You can just as easily come to the conclusion that there is simply no interest in Tiananmen square in china. In China the subject is actively taboo. That is not the same in the US. There is a significant difference.

[wentscat]

Originally posted by General Ludd


What, should we wait another decade or two when it's been completely forgotten and is unactively taboo in china before we compare them?



It's amazing that you'll throw a fit at china for "forgeting it's history" but simply shrug and say meh when your own country's forgetfulness is mentioned.

Its amazing you will make **** up to please your indignation.

The events of that day were never supressed actively in the US. They were ignored by those in power, the victims made little noise about it long term, no one cared internationally, so it became just another one in a long line of actions that get forgotten.

UNlike in Tianemen, were the government has actively sought to supress the memory in the face of lots of information being out there fed by international interest.

[Mabeavyledlib]

Originally posted by GePap
The events of that day were never supressed actively in the US. They were ignored by those in power, the victims made little noise about it long term, no one cared internationally, so it became just another one in a long line of actions that get forgotten.

UNlike in Tianemen, were the government has actively sought to supress the memory in the face of lots of information being out there fed by international interest. The difference here is semantic, at best. China "suppresses" the memory through commuinst brainwashing, the USA "ignores" the memory through a democratic memory lapse. There is no real difference.

[Srewxardsasv]

The US government used force to disperse WWI veterans who had come to Washington in 1932 to collect their "bonus" certificates redeemable in 1945 and had gotten violent.

[id2008]

Originally posted by mactbone
OK, but we still remember the draft riots in the Civil War. Does this mean the goverent is hit and miss at covering stuff up? We also remember the shootings at Kent State, which are quite a bit more recent than the attack on the Bonus Army. I think this just means that people like to play the "Americans are dumb roflmao" or the "Americans are evil roflmao" card whenever a non-American atrocity is brought up.

Although we really should be bringing up Finnish atrocities, since Kassi is the one who posted the thread.

[Edifsdubs]

Actually, I bet if you picked 4 random US college students they wouldn't be able to identify the kent state photo, and atleast one of them would say it's from 9/11 or something.