[PypeMaypetasy]

yea but thats not the agurement. the state workers argreed to paying a little more for benifts almost at the begining. The agrument here is over the bargining rights of the workers. Tell me what does that have to do with money? He could have raised the contiributions towards benifits without taking away the rights of the workers. And yes its not a RIGHT to have the .... wait for it... right to bargin. But whats the point of unions if they can't colectivly bargin. And being a small buisness owner like youself.... you need to realise the effect this is going to have on our local economy. Less money in paychecks means less buying, less hiring out of work. Now i say that losley because i'm sure there is many state workers that won't get hurt by this to much. But what about people like my mother also one of my aunts and one uncle who aren't making over 20k a year. Again how is any adult supposed to live off that after more is gettting taken out of every pay check, there retirements are in jepordey and also working in a job feild that is already very unstable to begin with? Hey but we have a Democracy right? Where our elected officals don't listen to the people, much less fellow elected officals. again. thats just me

The state employees STILL have bargaining rights...they just can't bargin on benefits. They CAN still bargain on wages and everything else. And if your Mom truely makes that amount, then she probably pays very little in taxes. Your angry at the wrong governor if you want to get into the tax debate. You may have skipped passed my previous post were I explained this, but the money your mom would get back from NOT having to pay union dues, would off-set the cost of the benefits going up and probably put more money in her pocket. Also, ask your mom about the WEAC...the union's personal health insurance company that asks for rediculous amounts of money for their services. By ELIMINATING collective bargaining...your mother would not be FORCED to pay into this health care and she would get choose her own insurance probably at a significantly lower cost with same amount of services rendered. Once again...this would put more money in your families pocket. Anything else you want to know????

Conrad, please don't close this thread...it's off topic and if people want to voice their opinion then please let them. As far as guns go...I gots plenty of those myself. My personal favorite is my Kimber .45 with full metal jacket rounds...that'll brighten up anybody's day.

[Wvq9InTM]

Being a "Private Sector" employee with a family of "State" employees, I see both sides very well.
Scott Walker's biggest mistake was to go in to office demanding changes with no bargains. It's just not how things work. He wants one thing, state workers want something else. You have to make compromises. Yes, Scott Walker can't just get everything he wants. But at the same time, something has to change because a state going deeper and deeper in to debt isn't good. Pitting one American against another is more likely to start a civil war than to resolve any issues. I think the biggest issue was the way he presented his plan, rather than the plan itself.

- Lets look at the pension issue. Scott Walker wants employees to contribute 5.8% of their wage to their pension while matching that 100%. That's better than my "Private Sector" 401k. But instead of saying that, he words it so far out of proportion to sway the argument his way that he creates nothing more than panic on both sides stating things like "We are paying for 94% of the current pension". Facts are what need to be seen, one-sided statements like this don't help anyone. Also, he has made the pension mandatory. I can see where he's coming from on this, some people are terrible at saving money for themselves and he's trying to correct this. But it's not his place to do so. If people don't want to save for their retirement, it's their fault and not the governments. Give them the option to opt out if they want. If they don't like the deal, they can choose not to utilize it.

- How about the union issue? Why not try giving people the option to opt out of the union before going balls out cutting it all together? How many state employees do you think fully understand what the union does for them? If he would have sat down and actually showed people how much they pay in dues and what it all goes towards, I think many would opt out of it by choice. And if it doesn't work, put it to vote. Like Greg said, majority vote wins which ever way it goes. I've seen how much the union dues are, and what they go towards. To me, cutting them isn't the end of the world. You say without them, you have no bargaining. I doubt Scott Walker would be so dumb (my personal thoughts on the guys IQ aside) to cut unions just so he could slash wages on state jobs. If the state funded police, firefighters, and teachers aren't getting enough support to do their jobs, then policing, fighting fires, and teaching children wont get done. If that doesn't get done, our state's in much worse trouble than just a deficit. Again, I can't see any official not realizing this and addressing it as an issue. And as COGS stated, the saving from not having to pay dues every paycheck helps to offset other costs as well.

- Health care. Now this is where it starts going too far. I agree that as health care costs go up, the cost is going to go up too. It's just the way things work. But it went too high, and at way to fast of a rate. Basic health care for a single person with no kids is going up 200%. My question is why? It is statistically proven that single people without kids are the cheapest people to insure. Why not take a look at the "Private Sector" insurances, and base the costs on these if that's what they are trying to model? At my work, single without kids plans are about 2x what the current state is. So raise the currect cost 100%. It's a compromise, Scott Walker wants 200% and state employees want 0%. Meet in the middle and and you're exactly at what the "Private Sector" is. I agree that the cost need to go up, but they still need to be reasonable.

- And here's where I think the scales really tip. On top of the mandatory pension and increased health care cost, he's looking to cut wages. I'm sure a person making six figures sitting at a desk will live through this, but what about the entry level people making $20k-$30k a year? Cut their wage and require them to put more in to health care and pension? It's what's causing the tipping point. And this is where negotiations come in to play. Scott Walker came in to office with a "No Negotiation" attitude. Look where it got him, hated by people not just around the state but around the WORLD. I think he is finally coming back down to Earth, and realizing compromises must be made. But until that point hits, nobody is going to be happy. Fleeing to IL may look like a cowardly act to some, but it proved a point to many. Scott Walker has already agreed to make compromises, however small they may be.

The state doesn't have the money to foot the bill on everything. As a state employee, this means increases in pension and health costs. It works exactly the same way a private sector company does. If your business goes down the drain, you don't give everyone raises. You cut costs. Bottom line, negotiations need to be made so we can cut costs and not eliminate jobs/wages. You can't have everything without giving something. I try to keep my personal opinion out of politics as much as I can, but being surrounded by an entire family of state employees sometimes causes me to be persuaded one way over the other. If I'm wrong on anything I posted, I challenge you to provide me with the facts (not your opinion) to support your claim. My feelings towards any individual will not change do to their political beliefs, as long as they aren't closed minded people who are complete idiots. But then my feelings will most likely change do to you being a close minded idiot and not so much because of your political beliefs

[Wvq9InTM]

Whoa, I didn't realize how long my post was until I actually posted it.

[Pdarassenko]

Thread is fine - as long as name calling and personal threats aren't involved I'll keep it open.

[FotoCihasWewb]

As far as guns go...I gots plenty of those myself. My personal favorite is my Kimber .45 with full metal jacket rounds...that'll brighten up anybody's day.

I used to sleep with my Ruger p89 DC

Gotta love my pre-ban Black Talon's (from back in the Day) I've only got 100rds left.
Maximum wound cavity ...... Minimal chance of Survival .

But so as to comply with State & Fed law ...... I only keep 2 clips loaded w/ BT rounds .
So the Average Burglar will have to Get a Federal Hydra-Shok vent hole ......


Like the Sign on my door Says '
" If you're found here tonight , you'll be found here tomorrow morning ."

[PypeMaypetasy]

Whoa, I didn't realize how long my post was until I actually posted it.

I think your post was good, but there is some incorrect information in it. The Governor is not cutting wages, because he does not have the ability or authority to cut wages. Individual school districts are responsible for the wages they provide to their employees. What the governor can do is cut funding to a program and it is up to each district on how they manage the budget they are provided.

As far as healthcare costs going up annually...the governor doesn't have much control on this either. The unions own their own insurance company that charge their members insane costs. They should adopt a private sector healthcare, but even this scenario is F'd up too. Basically, healthcare goes up almost 15% annually because this country is dier need of tourt reform. If the doctors in this country are in fear of being sued everytime they do a procedure, then they have to account for the costs of lawyers and continous lawsuits. Basically fear of lawsuit drives the prices of healthcare.

[geniusxs81]

You're right in saying the governor is not cutting wages, but what he IS doing is mandating increased contributions to pension, healthcare. This puts the same amount of money in the employee's pocket as if he cut wages. Semantics...


On the issue of healthcare, we financially survived my dad's heart attack simply because we were part of a union health plan and not on our own for insurance. As a union negotiated health plan, they have much more leverage over hospitals and care providers as a group of people. the $10,000 helicopter ride was comped probably based on a negotiation on our health care rep. It makes sense to me - a union health care rep goes to the hospital and says "we're going to say your doctors arent good for our plan unless you comp all helicopter rides." The hospital/medical facility/medical company is much more interested in giving up the cost of that helicopter ride in order to maintain a large number of patients. Imagine if we had our own health care and we slammed with that bill. What could we do? Call our insurance provider and ask that they not charge us? They would then go to the hospital/company and try and get us our $10000 back with the only leverage being "well, the Mutchler's dont really want to pay that..."

Yeah, my family paid our union dues, sure we might have had more money in pocket, but it was hella nice to have that protection (in more ways than just the heart attack... )

[geniusxs81]

And like Jeff, my almost whole entire rest of my family is big into unions, etc. I don't expect to ever be part of a union and much like Jeff said also, I hear nothing but republican banter at work. I hate to say that a lot of it makes sense too.

[PypeMaypetasy]

You're right in saying the governor is not cutting wages, but what he IS doing is mandating increased contributions to pension, healthcare. This puts the same amount of money in the employee's pocket as if he cut wages. Semantics...


On the issue of healthcare, we financially survived my dad's heart attack simply because we were part of a union health plan and not on our own for insurance. As a union negotiated health plan, they have much more leverage over hospitals and care providers as a group of people. the $10,000 helicopter ride was comped probably based on a negotiation on our health care rep. It makes sense to me - a union health care rep goes to the hospital and says "we're going to say your doctors arent good for our plan unless you comp all helicopter rides." The hospital/medical facility/medical company is much more interested in giving up the cost of that helicopter ride in order to maintain a large number of patients. Imagine if we had our own health care and we slammed with that bill. What could we do? Call our insurance provider and ask that they not charge us? They would then go to the hospital/company and try and get us our $10000 back with the only leverage being "well, the Mutchler's dont really want to pay that..."

Yeah, my family paid our union dues, sure we might have had more money in pocket, but it was hella nice to have that protection (in more ways than just the heart attack... )

I'm glad your dad is doing well Greg. Like you, my dad also recently suffered a heart-attack just days after this past Christmas. Luckily when he was feeling the symptoms my mom had drove him to the hospital where he actually suffered the heart-attack. With my family owning our own business we have a good healthcare, but not great. We had to pay that $10,000+ emegency heart stent surgery bill. And the wages issue is not semantics. Once again, by eliminating collective bargaining you are giving the worker the choice whether they want to be part of the union or not. The money saved will out weigh the costs of union dues. Also, Wisconsin offers state employees the BEST benefits out of any state in the country. They are being asked to pay modest increses that are still half of what the national average is.

[FotoCihasWewb]

Being a Single parent this could mean drastic changes to my Badger Care as well as my sons School , now and Future .


Both party's have Valid points ...... Other wise there would be no Debate .

These problems and issues are anything but new , every few years or so ...... Wham !
They get brought into the Spot light . But it is when you See the people it affects first hand , everyday .
The message gets driven home a little more . My Family has been in New Construction (Homes) for 30 + years . The 80's were the last Good years .
It's just one big Shit sandwich , and we all have to take a Bite .


But we have elections soon here , so we'll just have to see how that turns out . The Great thing about Elected positions their not Permanent .

[xanonlinexan]

I have emailed and posted this to death with people so this will be short.

Disclaimers: I am a conservative, and I voted for Walker. To me "conservative" means that I agree with 90% of what Walker and Republicans are "saying" they are doing. We need to reduce spending, particularly on frivoulous government programs, entitlement programs, military, etc. To me conservative is smaller governement, less spending, etc.

Key Walker points: He beats to death that we are "BROKE" we have to make these "HARD CUTS" on everything because it is necessary to reduce taxes and spending. These are "FAIR" cuts to bring benefits in line with the private sector. That the union issue is not about collective bargaining its about the "COST SAVINGS". I agree with these statements.

The MAJOR PROBLEMS I HAVE WITH THIS:

1) On the union issue, the number in question is NOT the $150 million number that usually is published, it is only $20something million. The other $130 million in the "budget repair bill" or whatever it is called comes from refinancing government debt. $20 million is NOTHING. There are individuals, CEOs etc. all over this state that MAKE THAT IN A YEAR. The first thing Walker did was give $125 million or so in business tax breaks before he even unpacked his stuff in his office. If we truly need the $20 million that bad... Plus, the unions agreed to accept the cuts in exchange for keeping their bargaining rights long ago. They also agreed to FURTHER cuts that a Rep Senator proposed in exchange for keeping collective bargaining. If its truly only about saving the state money, a COMPROMISE (good politics) could have been reached weeks ago by taking MORE MONEY in cuts from the unions in exchange for letting them continue to exist. Instead, we have tens of thousands protesting, protests nationwide, state senators fleeing the state. Whens the last time anything of this magnitude has happened? EVERY poll now in Wisconsin and nationwide even conservative sources shows 2/3 favor the labor side and only 1/3 favor Walker. So much for government for the people. Make no mistake no matter what he says it basically ends collective bargaining. No bargaining on anything but salary, and even then only up to the inflation index. Max one year contracts. No dues collection or even mandatory membership. It effectively ends their union bargaining rights. The fact that it saves only a paltry $20 million, by not compromising, taking the money, and better yet taking more money, shows me its clearly about killing the unions.

2) The union thing, and the budget in general. The budget has sweeping cuts to everything from education, entitlement programs, prisons, you name it. Education and some of the cuts in particular are hard to justify at least most people would agree that education is pretty important. Again, because we are "BROKE" and we need to "REDUCE ALL SPENDING" to bring our budget into line. I can fully get behind that. BUT WAIT, we are going to INCREASE SPENDING with giveaways to "promote business" including removing capital gains taxes for investments in WI companies, and forming some shady "business commision" for $150 or whatever million. Capital gains tax elimination is a favorite of the wealthy, will do nothing to stimulate business or create jobs, it will benefit INDIVIDUALS that invest in the market on WI companies. The companies dont get that money lol. Who knows what the $150 mill will be spent on by the "business commission" but I can guarentee it wont be my business it will be wooing buddies and corporations. So, if we truly are BROKE and need these HARD CUTS including the $20 million from the workers/middle class, how can we in the same budget have $100s of millions in giveaways. To me these are nothing but more entitlement giveaways, just for a different select group of people rather than the ones for the "poor". Better we cut those as well and just reduce EVERYONES taxes. That for sure would put more money in EVERYONES pockets to spend and invest in WI, rather than relying on wealthy investors to "trickle it down" or a business commission to actually usefully spend that money to create jobs. I thought Republicans, Conservatives, Tea Partiers, whatever we about reducing spending and reducing the size of government, not adding more selective spending and creating new governent "business commission" agencies...

3) CONSPIRACY THEORIES! I dont buy half the Koch BS, but there are some valid points. No matter what their website says these guys did indeed give hundreds of thousands even millions to get Walker elected. Not directly of course, directly it was only $43,000 but they fund all sorts of ultra conservative groups like "Americans for Prosperity" that funneled hundreds of thousands to Walker. They do indeed own many coal plant operations in WI already, just like the ones the state is looking to sell here in WI. How can they say they "have no interest" in buying them lol. Thats like me owning 10 McDonalds in the state, becoming billionaires off of that business, then saying "I have no interest in buying a few more" lol. Its one of the major businesses they are in!!! Finally, why then the lines in the bill about the plants at all. There are lines in the bill stashed away that will allow the state to sell those plants with no competitive bidding... WHY?? Everything the state does and in fact every corporation does has the oversight of competitive building, precisely to stop favoritism, shady deals, etc. WHY IS THAT LANGUAGE IN THE BILL? There is no rational argument for not selling the plants to the highest bidder and getting as much as we can for them.

[xanonlinexan]

P.S. If your a conservative like I am you shouldn't just blindy believe and think that all conservative politicians are good and everything they do is "right".

In fact, I personally am pissed because I voted for him, I believed in him, and believed conservatives were finally gaining ground against the Obama debacle. Scott Walker with his hard line approach and flawed hardline budget and refusal to compromise has made him a hero amongst the blind ultra conservatives. However for most in the middle, liberals, even many conservatives I know he has commited politcal suicide, and probably set back the conservative movement a ton. Look at all the press, protests, etc. He has actually MOTIVATED and STIRRED up these people lol. He only won with 52% of the vote, and as I said 2/3 of the polls are now against him and it has steadily been getting worse. Wait for all the lawsuits, fallout, etc. to hit. In fact, the attourney general and many county and municipal governments have determined that in many places including Milwaukee County, the largest, what he has done is illegal. Depends how the contracts are written. Theres going to be a ton more fallout, protests, continued protests nationwide in IN and OH. I guess I do applaud him for sticking to his position but it is bad politics.

[PypeMaypetasy]

^^^Well guess what, time will tell. If his plans for Wisconsin don't work...then he won't get re-elected plan and simple. The SAME exact thing went down in Indiana...Governor Mitch Daniels was hated when he took away collective bargaining, but yet he got re-elected...because his plan worked. Indiana is one of the only states that are in the black. I voted for Walker and I'm not pissed one bit. He campaigned on what he's doing and still won the vote. And like it takes alot to stir up radical liberals...Madison is their Mecca for Christs-sake and Walker's office is right in the middle of the hornet's nest. You know it's a complete circus when you have people like Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson and Richard Trumpka showing up. There is nothing illegal on what he did as well...State law on open meeting is 24 hour notification when your are in normal session, however you don't need 24 hour notification when you're in special session...which they were. They were in special session because 14 democrats decided they would rather be playing Marco Polo in a Holiday Inn swimming pool somewhere in Illinois for 3 weeks, then doing there jobs in the state capitol.

[xanonlinexan]

By illegal I am not talking about the session/vote. I am talking about the changes removing bargaining particularly related to retirement benefits. Depending on the language of the contracts county by county city by city school district by school district, many places like milwaukee county are saying it is illegal for the state to change those benefits and remove collective bargaining on them. Even the state attourney general agrees and has issued official "legal stance" paperwork stating so. So, lawsuits will be filed all over the place, probably costing millions in legal fees lol. Not to mention police and fire were excluded, so places like Milwaukee are saying it wont save them much if anything since 60% of their budget is police and fire and exempt, and the rest it may be illegal. On that note why were police and fire excluded? Sure they are important but again supposedly these changes were "fair", and "necessary". Maybe its because they supported Walker. Past tense is appropriate, as most of them have since publicly expressed their regret and outrage including the Wisconsin Police Association (state patrol). More lost support and votes.

[PypeMaypetasy]

By illegal I am not talking about the session/vote. I am talking about the changes removing bargaining particularly related to retirement benefits. Depending on the language of the contracts county by county city by city school district by school district, many places like milwaukee county are saying it is illegal for the state to change those benefits and remove collective bargaining on them. Even the state attourney general agrees and has issued official "legal stance" paperwork stating so. So, lawsuits will be filed all over the place, probably costing millions in legal fees lol. Not to mention police and fire were excluded, so places like Milwaukee are saying it wont save them much if anything since 60% of their budget is police and fire and exempt, and the rest it may be illegal. On that note why were police and fire excluded? Sure they are important but again supposedly these changes were "fair", and "necessary". Maybe its because they supported Walker. Past tense is appropriate, as most of them have since publicly expressed their regret and outrage including the Wisconsin Police Association (state patrol). More lost support and votes.

What's even funnier is that the idea for seperating collective bargaining from the budget repair bill came from Mayor Tom Barrett LOL. Good job Tom...do you have any more great ideas??? I do agree with you, I would have made the cuts across the board with fire & police...to be fair, but their rationalization was, "nobody will die if a teacher goes on strike."

Sidenote: The Wisconsin State Attorney General is JB Van Hollan and he's a Republican. To my knowledge he has not filed any suits stating these claims.

[xanonlinexan]

Yes I believe Barrett would have been worse we can agree on that at least...

Walker did not campaign on removing collective bargaining, or on adding spending to the budget for businesses. He campaigned on cutting spending.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...mpaigned-his-/

[xanonlinexan]

Amateurs lol.

I already have my 39 state legal Utah CC permit, and "visitors" to my home will be greeted with a hail of gunfire from one of my numerous AR-15s including a .458 SOCOM, PS90, and numerous pistols mainly I have been a big fan of the XD series...

I used to sleep with my Ruger p89 DC

Gotta love my pre-ban Black Talon's (from back in the Day) I've only got 100rds left.
Maximum wound cavity ...... Minimal chance of Survival .

But so as to comply with State & Fed law ...... I only keep 2 clips loaded w/ BT rounds .
So the Average Burglar will have to Get a Federal Hydra-Shok vent hole ......


Like the Sign on my door Says '
" If you're found here tonight , you'll be found here tomorrow morning ."

[PypeMaypetasy]

Yes I believe Barrett would have been worse we can agree on that at least...

Walker did not campaign on removing collective bargaining, or on adding spending to the budget for businesses. He campaigned on cutting spending.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...mpaigned-his-/

Yeah, cause the Journal Sentinal is such a fair & balanced publication *sigh*. This is just the tip of the ice-berg with the budget repair bill...just wait till the real cuts in spending begin with the $3.6 billion deficit bill. He may not have specifically stated, "I'm going to end collective bargaining," but it was clearly eluded to. There is no doubt we need to have more businesses come to the state of Wisconsin...More businesses means more tax dollars. With Illinois's governor raising taxes, your going to see alot of Illinois based companies jump ship and come north of their border. This equals more private sector jobs and more tax payer money.

[geniusxs81]

I like this thread.

[CefGemYAffews]

to much reading... i give up. i'm gonna go knock a few back