[NumStulpata]

My wife's parents are going to visit our church this weekend! We just spent the best week (ever) with them in North Myrtle Beach, and they're going to come to church with us on Sunday. We let them read Frederica's "12 Things..." article last night, and answered a couple of questions (mostly practical like what does the crossing thing look like). Prayers are greatly appreciated. Thanks for everyone who's been keeping up with us.

[Queuerriptota]

Welcome to Home Church to your parents in law. Glad o hear that.

[Fsfkkkjz]

Hope it went well.

[Licacivelip]

Yeah,

Don't leave us hanging Caleb. What up?

Paul

[jinnamys]

The weekend went well. Church was different for everyone. Pentecost being a different-from-normal service in general. My FIL was able to follow in the book alright. My MIL grew up Brethren and has a family tradition of questioning and doubting ceremony. The incense was a little bit too much for her allergies.

Also had a chat with my parents that afternoon at which they expressed concern that I was just being "blinded by the lights" of the new shiny thing. This is a good observation and they were lovingly trying to help me ask questions of "why" so that I don't just believe things because they're exciting or beautiful. It was also off-putting, because I didn't have good answers to their questions. *sigh* Prayers please.

[quorceopporce]

Not to worry Caleb,

We all (converts that is) have to deal with family who are concerned about our new cult. Take time. Show love.

Paul

[frequensearules]

It was also off-putting, because I didn't have good answers to their questions. *sigh* Prayers please.

During the time of my transition into Orthodoxy, I know I didn't answer the questions of others very well. Read the story of the man born blind (John 9). That man certainly didn't have all the answers. He simply testified to what knew from his own experience. Of course, now that I have all the answers , those people have long since given up on me!

[LINETFAD]

Hi Caleb,

Which questions do bother you?

[Podborodok]

Questions that fluster/bother me:
-Where in the Bible do you receive instructions for praying to dead people?
-How is this different from Catholicism
-Do you worship Mary?
-Do you understand the theology behind that practice?
-What is it about Orthodoxy (that isn't just new and shiny) that attracts you?
-What about people who've never been to church?

Things of that nature. I also don't know how to deal with the assumption that Orthodoxy is just some nebulous ground between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. It's a ridge that I don't really know how to figure out myself, let alone try to explain to very informed, intelligent Protestants.

[Lkemybab]

It's a ridge that I don't really know how to figure out myself, let alone try to explain to very informed, intelligent Protestants.

You're not going to be able to in the short run. Answers will come. (actually, every question you have posed has numerous threads on this site. Do a search for them.) As my priest says, "All mysteries will be revealed".

Tell them they have had all their lives to study and understand why they feel the way they do. Please allow you the time to explore this as well. The word Protestant came from the act of Protesting. What were they protesting and why? Find the answer to that and you will see why they feel the way they do. Then let them know the OC did not go the way of the RC and we remain devoted to the way the apostles set up the church. Tell them God is the same yestrday, Today and forever. If this bible verse is True, then so is the Church He founded on Pentecost. You have found this church. Now you have 2000 years of catch up to learn.

Don't get discouraged.

Paul

[orillaVar]

Hi Caleb.

This article should help you understand why we pray for the dead. Also there are references to praying for the dead in the books of Maccabees. Sorry I can't quote the exact chapter and verse at the moment. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on this further.

How are we different from (Roman) Catholicism? Here is a good 2 part audio or podcast that covers the basic differences.

No, we don't worship Mary but she is the greatest of all the Saints and therefore she takes her place rightfully at the right hand of Christ. This is why Mary is always to the right of the Lord on all Iconostas in all Orthodox Churches. More on Mary can be found here.

Which practice(s) do you want more theology on specifically?

I'm not sure if I understand the last question.

[Nabeqiv]

Keep in mind. the books of Maccabees are not found in protestant bibles. So this may be a hard sell.

[lymnCymment]

Keep in mind. the books of Maccabees are not found in protestant bibles. So this may be a hard sell.

True, but they have been part of the canonical scriptures of both Catholic and Orthodox since the bible was first assembled in 367 A.D. and I think Maccabees is in the Septuagint aren't they?

[replicamuse]

Yes, true on all points. But until I converted, I thought Maccabees was a RC innovation and if it was not in MY bible, I should stay as far away from it as possible. My bible did not have the Seputagint in it. So how was I to know growing up? I dare day others think the same thing.

[EvaQWmrm]

Which practice(s) do you want more theology on specifically?

I'm not sure if I understand the last question.

It was more of a general statement by my dad. He wanted to make sure that we were making sure we knew the theology behind x,y, and z before just embracing it as exciting, exotic, or "shiny". So the theology of prayer to saints, Mary, etc.

To be fair, he's only had very little exposure to Orthodoxy, but I know that if he and my mom were to visit church within the next month things would be tense afterwards.

[cigattIcTot]

Hi Caleb,

May God bless you.

Please allow me to respond to these questions. I will start with historical perspective.

Apostles were establishing in year 33 the Church of Jerusalem that is today in Orthodox Church. In year 1000 as result of schism Catholic Church become into place. In 1500+ Protestantism came into being. Today there are 30000 protestant groups everyone with its own truths.

Make sure your parents understand the historical perspective. This is important in establishing the truth.

For all questions you have , Churches that appeared before 1500 have no contradiction and all these Churches oppose Protestantism side in this debate. Historical documents are on the side of Churches that appeared before 1500. So, from historical perspective history and Churches that appeared before 1500 pray for the dead, history shows that Apostles pray for the dead, I will come with the document, and in 1500+ protestants broke away from catholic Church and then came with their own understanding of Bible , with novelties and from here so called debates took places. before 1500 + there was no debate in praying for the dead.

From historical perspectives , a normal protestant family would have been 1000 years into Orthodox Church, 500 years into Catholic Church, and 500 years as a Protestant family. If one generation = 50 years, a Protestant family would have been 20 generations as Orthodox , praying for dead, 10 generations as Catholic praying for the dead as history shows, and 10 generations as protestants fighting against praying for the dead and contradicting Apostles.

I really want you to make this clear, the above paragraph.

[CibQueersejer]

-Where in the Bible do you receive instructions for praying to dead people?
Historical documents show us what people did on Sundays . We do have Liturgy of Apostle James and Holy Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html here in Holy liturgy of Apostle Mark you see clear how Holy Liturgy centered on Holy Communion for eternal life took place and how the deacon read the records of the dead, praying for the dead.

Here is the proposition:
"The Priest.

The Lord will bless thee in His grace, now, henceforth, and for evermore.

The Deacon reads the record of the dead.

The Priest bows and prays.

XV. Give peace, O Sovereign Lord our God, to the souls of all who dwell in the tabernacles of Thy saints. Graciously bestow upon them in Thy kingdom Thy promised blessing, which eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man what Thou, O God, hast prepared for those who love Thy holy name. Give peace to their souls, and deem them worthy of the kingdom of heaven"

As you see , Apostle and Evangelist Mark wrote the Holy Liturgy of Apostle Mark showing what Christians did on Sundays , that ask priests and deacon to pray for the dead people.

"A passage in the New Testament which may refer to a prayer for the dead is found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:

May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord’s mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well. "

History about prayer for the dead:
before 1500+ nobody spoke AGAINST prayer for dead as protestant do.
Prayer for the dead is well-documented within early Christianity, both among prominent Church Fathers and the Christian community in general. In Eastern Orthodoxy Christians pray for "such souls as have departed with faith, but without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance".[3] In the Catholic Church the assistance that the dead receive by prayer on their behalf is linked with the process of purification known as purgatory.[4][5] While prayer for the dead continues in both these traditions and in those of Oriental Orthodoxy and of the Assyrian Church of the East, many Protestant groups reject the practice.

The tomb of the Christian Abercius of Hieropolis in Phrygia (latter part of the 2nd century) bears the inscription: Let every friend who observes this pray for me, i.e. Abercius, who throughout speaks in the first person.

The inscriptions in the Roman catacombs bear similar witness to the practice, by the occurrence of such phrases as:

* Mayst thou live among the saints (3rd century);
* May God refresh the soul of . . . ;
* Peace be with them.

Among Church writers Tertullian (â€* 230) is the first to mention prayers for the dead, and not as a concession to natural sentiment, but as a duty: The widow who does not pray for her dead husband has as good as divorced him. This passage occurs in one of his later Montanist writings, dating from the beginning of the 3rd century. Subsequent writers similarly make incidental mention of the practice as prevalent, but not as unlawful or even disputed (until Arius challenged it towards the end of the 4th century). The most famous instance is Saint Augustine's prayer for his mother, Monica, at the end of the 9th book of his Confessions, written around 398.

An important element in the Christian liturgies both East and West consisted of the diptychs, or lists of names of living and dead commemorated at the Eucharist. To be inserted in these lists was a confirmation of one's orthodoxy, and out of the practice grew the official canonization of saints; on the other hand, removal of a name was a condemnation.

Although it is not possible, as a rule, to name dates for the exact words used in the ancient liturgies, yet the universal occurrence of these diptychs and of definite prayers for the dead in all parts of the Christian Church, East and West, in the 4th and 5th centuries shows how primitive such prayers were. The language used in the prayers for the departed is very reserved, asking only for rest and freedom from pain and sorrow. We may cite the following from the so-called Liturgy of St James:

Remember, O Lord, the God of Spirits and of all Flesh, those whom we have remembered and those whom we have not remembered, men of the true faith, from righteous Abel unto to-day; do thou thyself give them rest there in the land of the living, in thy kingdom, in the delight of Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our holy fathers, from whence pain and sorrow and sighing have fled away, where the light of thy countenance visiteth them and always shineth upon them.

Public prayers were only offered for those who were believed to have died as faithful members of the Church. But Saint Perpetua, who was martyred in 202, believed herself to have been encouraged in a vision to pray for her brother, who had died in his eighth year, almost certainly unbaptized; and a later vision assured her that her prayer was answered and he had been translated from punishment.


-How is this different from Catholicism
There is no difference in this perspective with any historical documents about early Church, with Apostles writings and is no difference with any Church that appeared before 1500. protestantism contradict Apostles writings of Apostles. You have to choose between trusting men that made their Churches or Apostles. Since they contradict each other, there is no Both.

[j2Y6Ysmb]

This is what are you looking for, Saint Peter praying for a dead woman , and raising her from death:

"Acts 9:40-41 (New International Version)

40Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. 41He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive."

As you see Caleb, on one side one side you have protestant teachings against prayer for the departed and on one side you have History, Bible, Apostles . There is no both but either or.

[Onervemurce]

-Do you worship Mary?

First we need to establish what worship means. Worship means considering a person as deity. If you don't consider somebody as a deity you can not worship that person. For example I can bring pictures with young men kneeling in front of young women , and I can say idolatry ,the young men worship young women and such things and bring images and I will get laughed at because if the young men don't consider young women as deities, this is not Worship.

Another example is somebody kissing one's person picture. This is not worship is love. To be worship the person in picture need to be considered deity.

So coming back to orthodox Christianity, Holy Mother of God and Saints are not deities therefor they can not be worshiped.

-Do you understand the theology behind that practice?

Again there is no worship. There is veneration. The Bible passage behind veneration of Saint Mary is the following: "All generations shall call me blessed"

[SpeavaJap]

-What is it about Orthodoxy (that isn't just new and shiny) that attracts you?

This is for you to respond, what attracted you to Orthodox Christianity.