[uchetrip]

The Christmas Tree is related “...to the prophecy of the Prophet Isaiah: “There shall come forth a
Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots” (Is. 11:1). St. Cosmas the
poet had this prophecy in mind when he wrote of Christ as the blossom which rose up out of the
Virgin stem from the stump of Jesse. The root is Jesse, David’s father, the rod is King David, the
flower which came from the root and the rod is the Theotokos. And the fruit which came forth
from the flower of the Panagia is Christ. Holy Scripture presents this wonderfully. Thus the
Christmas tree can remind us of the genealogical tree of Christ as man, the love of God, but also
the successive purifications of the Forefathers of Christ. At the top is the star which the Godman
Christ.

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos, The Feasts of the Lord, Esther Williams (tr), p. 376.

[pipitous]

Don't see how that relates to the "Christmass Tree".

There is also a scripture that speaks against the abomination of hewing down a tree, standing it up in your home, and decorating it in silver and gold. The evergreen was seen as a symbol of Tamuz. I see those two things being more directly relevant to the Christmas Tree than the scripture you posted. Scripture also references a vine, so perhaps it would be more accurate to put up a living vine in our homes. See what I mean?

[illiderob]

Dearest Etsi,

I don't want to argue, and I really couldn't care less one way or another. I like Christmas trees as a decoration, so I put them up. I received this from an Archdiocese list server I subscribe to on quotes from the Fathers, and I thought, that in the spirit of goodwill I would share it for the benefit of others who might feel guilty in putting up trees.

However, please note that it is not *I* who quoted this scripture, but one of the holiest and *greatest theologians* of our modern Orthodox times, Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos. If you have a problem with his theoria, perhaps you can take it up with him? :-)

Be well,
Alice

[nilliraq]

Forgive me for intruding, but I can't help but think that the criticism is a bit harsh, and likely unfounded.

Apparently there were pre-Christian antecedents to modern "Christmas trees", but to assume a direct link is a considerable leap in logic. According to legend, St Boniface (8th Century - pre-schism, and definitely pre-reformation!) cut down "Thor's Oak" and in it's place grew a fir tree. The idea being that the fir tree symbolized Christ, that replaced the people's old "gods". Therefore, a Christmas tree (specifically being a coniferous tree vice deciduous) is that symbolism continued.

Also, could someone point me in the direction of the "scripture that speaks against the abomination of hewing down a tree, standing it up in your home, and decorating it in silver and gold"? I'm unfamiliar with that one.

[rhiniddibiarmr]

Don't see how that relates to the "Christmass Tree".

There is also a scripture that speaks against the abomination of hewing down a tree, standing it up in your home, and decorating it in silver and gold. The evergreen was seen as a symbol of Tamuz. I see those two things being more directly relevant to the Christmas Tree than the scripture you posted. Scripture also references a vine, so perhaps it would be more accurate to put up a living vine in our homes. See what I mean?

Oh? Perhaps you have a reference for this Scripture? I am not aware of it and would be very interested in reading it in context if it does indeed exist. And it is worth noting that the quote provided by Alice is from a very respected Orthodox author and Metropolitan.

Not all symbols used by Orthodox are mentioned specifically in Scripture, and many are not universal to all Orthodox. Take for example the wonderful Russian custom of the Blessing of the Baskets. The Greeks do not do this. Doing something does not make one unOrthodox, and not doing something does not necessarily make one unOrthodox. An ancient monastic saying is: "Do not take your typicon to another monastery". Customs vary and we really should be wary of criticizing the customs of others. We have already had a long discussion on how Christianity often and quite appropriately re-appropriates so-called "pagan" customs, so whether evergreens are symbols of anything no longer applies, once it has been given a new meaning in Christ.

If you want to decorate your home with vines, God be with you. If another has a Christmas tree and holly wreaths, let them celebrate as their bishop and priest recommends and not be concerned.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain,
Herman the Pooh who loves the smell of pine at Christmastime.

[Pdarasenko]

Oh? Perhaps you have a reference for this Scripture? I am not aware of it and would be very interested in reading it in context if it does indeed exist.

Also, could someone point me in the direction of the "scripture that speaks against the abomination of hewing down a tree, standing it up in your home, and decorating it in silver and gold"? I'm unfamiliar with that one.

Jeremiah 10:2-4

Thus says the LORD:


“ Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.

Though "Jeremiah is not talking about Christmas trees here. Christmas trees were totally unknown in the Prophet's day. He is talking about idol worship. He lets the people know in strong terms that they go into the woods, cut down a tree, and carve it into an image. Then they honor it by applying silver and gold. Their god is held together by nails. In other words, they are worshiping a scarecrow."

[Habalinnyf]

Ah! Thank you J.K. for the quote.

I can see how one can take it out of it's historical context and think it applies to Christmas trees. But I still think the point of deciduous versus coniferous in relation to the St Boniface legend applies. It's specifically a different type of tree we're talking about. Even if the original verse was in relation to deciduous trees (the Cedars of Lebanon and all that), the point is that the new tree supplanted the old.

The practice of Christianity "baptizing" elements of the cultures it evangelizes is very old. Basically, if we can take something that isn't intrinsically immoral and give it a Christian meaning, we do so. Hence the practice of commemorating Christmas on 25 December in the first place.

It's fairly clear that Christ was not actually born on 25 December (that's the rainy season in Palestine - the sheperd's would not have been "tending their flocks by night" in the rainy season!), but we took a couple (I think it was Saturnalia and one or two other) of pagan festivals that featured the exchange of gifts fairly prominently, and combined them and Christianized them. Voila! - Christmas came into being.

Would we dare criticize the Russian practice of substituting willow branches for palm fronds for Palm Sunday because they had been used in pre-Christian pagan practice in a similar fashion? (For the record, I'm not 100% sure the Russians actually used willow branches in their pagan practices, I'm just using that as a "what if" example).

Just my two kopecks.

[CruzIzabella]

A major reason for Russians using pussywillow instead of palm fronds is simple practicality: there wouldn't be too many places in Russia where palm trees could grow!

Here in Australia, Russian churches use both palms and pussywillow for Palm Sunday, as both are redily available at that time of the year. Similarly, Greeks prepare kollyva from boiled wheat for funerals and memorials, whereas Russians bring all sorts of other food, as wheat is hard to come by in many areas. The closest I've seen to kollyva at a Russian church is boiled rice sweetened with a honey syrup, and flavoured with sultanas and a bit of cinnamon.

My point? With so many folk customs, it's not "what it's made of" that's important, but what it represents. One only needs to look at the "what oil should be used in a lampada" thread to get the idea.

[Zmniubqr]

Last night, at the Vesper Services of St Katherine our Archbishop Stylianos said something very important that I would like to use ... he quoted from Scripture that "the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath". Now, he was not talking with regards to Christmas trees and the like but specifically it was very hot in the church and the Epitropi had the doors closed and the candles burning ... it was so hot inside the church people were uncomfortable and not praying well ... and our Archbishop is also a sick man, he has cancer, so what he was trying to say is ... everything in moderation.

It is nice to have candles burning in church but not at the expense of the spiritual worship or the physical well-being of the people ... He was reminding us not to become so "Pharisaical" with the "structure of the worship" that we neglect that it was all made for us and not us for it. What is the point of candles if we are not praying because our mind is wandering from the excess heat?

I think the same applies to the Christmas tree. If we allow the decoration of the tree to take a precedence over our liturgical life then sure it is bad but if we moderate ourselves so that it works IN to our liturgical life then there is nothing wrong with that since it is a secondary decoration covering the beauty of the celebration ...

Everything in moderation and as long as it does not replace Christ.

[chuviskkk]

Apparently there is misunderstanding in what I was attempting to point out. My point was not the Christmas tree itself. My point was that I saw no connection within the statement made between a family tree and the Christmas tree. Simply because someone says, "here's a family tree" and "here's a tree" does not make a particular type of tree a family tree. There was no logical connection made. I understand that the man is respected, though I confess I have no clue who he is. I know there are bishops, metropolitans (whatever that is), priests, etc. But you must understand that it would be the same as my pointing out portions of writings from Cotton Mather, JC Ryle, RC Sproul Jr, Calvin, and Edwards to a cradle Greek Orthodox...the majority would not have a clue who was what or that they are held in high spiritual regards on various issues. Yes, I'm converting, but unlike law school, there's no class saying that this person is this and that person is that and here are what their roles and duties are. Also, as someone coming from the Reformed faith, we look at what is being said, not who said it. Man is fallible, even the holiest amoungst us. So I was discussing what was being said and pointing out that I did not see a connection. Now, if someone wants to explain the IMPLIED connection (because I look at what is actually stated), then please do. Also, I did take the post as to claim something is Christian that many do not.

Thank you for posting the Scripture I was referring to (and yes, the Christmas tree has been seen as an idol). And thank you to the person who told the story of St. Boniface. I saw much more connection in that tale (a good pictoral example of Christianity overcoming Paganism) than I did in the original post. Compare the two and ya'll might get an idea of where I'm coming from when I say that I'm trying to see the connection or am not seeing a connection.

Blessings and Peace.

(ps. we are taught also to presume the best of a person's intentions before taking offense and I ask that you consider that I am not coming from an Orthodox background. I learn though by discussion.)

[DrCeshing]

I know there are bishops, metropolitans (whatever that is), priests, etc.

Metropolitans are between Patriarchs and Bishops. They are Bishops themselves, but a bit higher on the organizational chart.

I guess you could compare them with Cardinals in the RC faith? (I am not that familiar with the RC heirarchy though)

Paul

[Mappaindy]

I guess you could compare them with Cardinals in the RC faith? (I am not that familiar with the RC heirarchy though)

Paul

Isn't 'cardinal' a bird? =)

Etsi, what makes you say that the Christmas tree has been seen as an idol? Do you see it as an idol? What do you mean by 'idol'?

Just trying to understand where you're coming from. Because, to me, a Christmas tree is just a decoration. And an idol, is something that people worship, instead of God.

in Christ,
Mary.

[idobestbuyonlinepp]

Thus the
Christmas tree can remind us of the genealogical tree of Christ as man, the love of God, but also the successive purifications of the Forefathers of Christ.
At the top is the star which is the Godman, Christ. Etsi,

Orthodoxy through the ages, and through the great mystical experiences and visions of very holy men and women, has always used poetry and allegory as praise for Christ and His Holy Mother.

That is what the good Metropolitan is saying. It is quite simple actually, and if you read the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, you will start to understand that special Orthodox way of giving praise to God and His Mother.

Be well....

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. The fact that you did not understand this allegorical connection should not have prompted the response you made, and perhaps that is why we all misread your point.
I simply shared something; food for spiritual thought if you will...it isn't dogma nor is it Holy Tradition...just food for spiritual thought from one of the greatest modern theologians of Orthodoxy...you don't need to agree with it, but your response sounded to me as if you were extremely fundamentalist and against the tradition of the Christmas tree to the extent that you considered it sinful and wanted to challenge the Metropolitan on his own preference to see something symbolic and allegorical to Christ in it.

[Kokomoxcvcv]

Etsi,

Orthodoxy through the ages, and through the great mystical experiences and visions of very holy men and women, has always used poetry and allegory as praise for Christ and His Holy Mother.

That is what the good Metropolitan is saying. It is quite simple actually, and if you read the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, you will start to understand that special Orthodox way of giving praise to God and His Mother.

Be well....

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. The fact that you did not understand this allegorical connection should not have prompted the response you made, and perhaps that is why we all misread your point.
I simply shared something; food for spiritual thought if you will...it isn't dogma nor is it Holy Tradition...just food for spiritual thought from one of the greatest modern theologians of Orthodoxy...you don't need to agree with it, but your response sounded to me as if you were extremely fundamentalist and against the tradition of the Christmas tree to the extent that you considered it sinful and wanted to challenge the Metropolitan on his own preference to see something symbolic and allegorical to Christ in it.

The part in bold is very helpful.

No, I wasn't wanting to challenge the person quoted. I simply did not see a connection and given the protestant propensity for far reaching statements, this reminded me of the same by the manner that it was stated.

Uhm, there are fundamentalists that are fine with the Christmas tree where there are also Reformed (definitely not fundamentalists) that are against the Christmas tree. I don't know how much you know about Calvin, but he attempted to ban the use of the Christmas tree in Geneva, I believe. Yes, I'm coming from a point that not only was the Christmas tree sinful, but so was Christmas (something that we dealt with in another thread, and I thank everyone for their patience. I am able to recognize and celebrate the Nativity without the strappings of typical American Christmas...but even that was a great leap for me). To give an idea of how a "little thing" is a big leap for me....many Reformed are against images of Christ (even crosses are borderline) and it was a leap of faith that I wouldn't be struck dead when I wore an icon bracelet that was gifted to me. I literally held my breath and prayed that the Lord would work out the two arguing sides of myself on the issue. It didn't end there...there was much thought, reading, and more thought from a historical perspective for me before I was relaxed and settled on the matter.

Basically, if I see something that I know is a wall for me, I will state the wall that I see and read the responses to see if there is remedy for me on the issue. So it really was not meant to be argumentative. I think I must come off brusk or blunt here when I'm trying to understand something or point out my understanding of something. Please forgive me for offending you. I saw it as opportunity for discussion on something that I didn't see or understand.

[cindygirl]

Metropolitans are between Patriarchs and Bishops. They are Bishops themselves, but a bit higher on the organizational chart.

I guess you could compare them with Cardinals in the RC faith? (I am not that familiar with the RC heirarchy though)

Paul

Thank you Are there any positions between Priests and Bishops?

[BreeveKambmak]

There are various offikia or ranks of merit bestowed on priests of long-term, illustrious service. The highest of these are protopresbyter/archipriest (for a married priest) and archimandrite (for a monastic priest/hieromonk). It is customary to bestow the title Archimandrite on a hieromonk who has become a bishop-elect, if he doesn't already possess this rank.

[Idonnaink]

The highest of these are protopresbyter/archipriest (for a married priest)

Just a little clarification: Senior married priests are often elevated to the rank of "archpriest" or "protopriest" after 15 or so years. A senior archpriest after nearly a lifetime of distinguished service might be raised further to the rank of "protopresbyter"

and archimandrite (for a monastic priest/hieromonk). It is customary to bestow the title Archimandrite on a hieromonk who has become a bishop-elect, if he doesn't already possess this rank. The corresponding monastic ranks are "abbot" (igumen in Russian) for arch/proto priest and "archimandrite" for protopresbyter

It is important to note that these ranks are still ranks of the priesthood and do not confer any "extra" spiritual presence or grace. They are basically administrative ranks.

Fr David Moser

[AndrewBoss]

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos has written an Appendix titled "The tree of knowledge and the tree of life" in his book "The Feasts of the Lord". Within the Appendix there is a part titled "The Christmas tree" and he writes the following:

I suspect that the custom of decorating a tree at Christmas time is not simply a custom which came to us from the West and which we should replace with other more orthodox customs. To be sure, I have not gone into the history of the Christmas tree and where it originated, but I think that it is connected with the Christmas feast and its true meaning. Then comes the part which Alice posted at first in this thread.

And more:

Then, the Christmas tree reminds us of the tree of knowledge as well as the tree of life, but especially the latter. It underlines clearly the truth that Christ is the tree of life and that we cannot live or fulfill the purpose of our existence unless we taste of this tree, "the producer of life". Christmas cannot be conceived without Holy Communion. And of course as for Holy Communion it is not possible to partake of deification in Christ without having conquered the devil when we found ourselves faced with temptation relative to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where our freedom is tried.
We rejoice and celebrate, because "the tree of life blossomed from the Virgin in the cave". As I see it, Metropolitan Hierotheos' mission is not to analyze the origins of the Christmas tree, as he also states "I have not gone into the history of the Christmas tree and where it originated, but I think that it is connected with the Christmas feast and its true meaning". This, in my opinion, is a statement full of humility, and which explains that he sees the Christmas tree connected to the Feast and its true meaning. And from what we read, Metropolitan Hierotheos, is just underlining the true meaning and importance of Christmas. It is not wrong at all to connect the tree to Christ and make the tree a symbol for Him, and as a reminder that the purpose of these Feasts should be Christocentric.

To read the entire Appendix (which deals actually with Christological issues) is a real treat.

Also Metropolitan Hierotheos, is considered so great, just because he bases his writings on the writings of the Fathers of the Church. He does not stray from Tradition because he always writes based on the Fathers. So he teaches things within the Church, and does not deviate. The Church is great also because of the Fathers. Also Metropolitan Hierotheos' works are so simple at the same time. And people from all backgrounds can understand them.

I like what Etsi said that by discussing we all learn.

[provigil]

I loved that quotation:
"Do not take your typicon to another monastery".

pappou richard

[HitAttetlyTek]

I loved that quotation:
"Do not take your typicon to another monastery".

pappou richard

I don't understand the phrase (?) What is a typicon?