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Old 08-07-2012, 07:41 AM   #21
ZesePreodaNed

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Other ulama differ also with Salafis. Zaytuna is nothing but a modernist, salafi, minority, American type of Islam.

Nothing to do with following a madhab.
Salafi? its clear you have never been there. modernist? Oh now i know why i left this forum years ago people like you and your rigid version of islam. american type? lol well i dont want to follow indian/pakistani islam either. I'm done with this forum.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:42 AM   #22
TiepayWrary

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Salam sidi Nawawi619,

Could you explain on the ikhtilaf (curious) regarding that gender issue..I understand that the dynamics in North America make it hard at times for the gender segregation though.

PS - I have e-mailed you.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:49 AM   #23
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Not only did they visited but also spoke to the founders (imam Zaid Shakir , Sh Hamza) about zaytuna college and he had some of his top western students teach there (Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.) If he had a problem with Zaytuna would he allow or recommend Shaykh Yahya to teach there? I happen to be a friend of Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.

So i dont see it as wrong when i was there. Bringing up Yemen has a point here. True it is very strict there but that is their 'urf. Haba'ib understand that. They also understand the dynamics of America.
The problem with your case is that its completely a presumption on your part that those scholars did not have a problem and that they justified it as "urf". Your presumption is merely based on their silence and that they once in a while visited the place and so forth. Its better to start with the Zaytuna scholars directly explaining their stance and how as you claim it is justified under urf or "dynamics of America", rather than jump into saying that "so and so sheikh visited my place" argument.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:50 AM   #24
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NOTE: im not a shaykh hamza yusuf follower. Nor do i agree with him on every point. Nor do I believe in group think. Funny you say that when people cant criticize the Deoband on this forum. Some deoband on this forum think their minhaj is the true embodiment of the Sunnah and all of us are just watered down Muslims. Ironic the Deoband movement is only roughly 200 years old and is a neo tradionalist reaction to colonialism.

The Haba'ib have been around since Al muhajjir Imam Ahmad ibn Isa when he made hijra late 9th century CE and resided in Hadramawt and established a long lineage of top of the line Shafi'i scholars and Tasawwuf masters.
im not deobandi. i do not think a movement's time on this planet matters. as for the deobandis here who do refute allegations against their akabir let me just add that the same people would defend sh. hamza yusuf if someone were to call him a kafir or gustakh e rasul. think about it.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:52 AM   #25
casinobonbiner

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Salam sidi Nawawi619,

Could you explain on the ikhtilaf (curious) regarding that gender issue..I understand that the dynamics in North America make it hard at times for the gender segregation though.

PS - I have e-mailed you.
Brother Nawawi - please also reply to this thread if you can - sorry to go OT but i note you have 'Reliance of the Traveller' in your avatar.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-your-children
jzkh
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:07 AM   #26
Buhoutsoupfap

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how difficult would it be just to stretch a curtain across the room???
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:24 AM   #27
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Or as a minimum have brothers and sisters on opposite sides of the room. Would students stop going to Zaytuna if the 'scholars' there told them told them to sit on either side of the room and not free mix? Of course not.

This is not the first time reports of free mixing and brothers and sisters chatting/joking about/intermingling have come about re Zaytuna. They never deny it and many pictures in fact confirm it. But hey if there's iktilaaf on the issue then it's all good.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:14 AM   #28
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As many posters will know, I have been a big advocate of Hamza Yusuf and his ideas (like homeschooling, etc) for years and to this day, I have one of his old lectures on my signature (since it is very useful, ). I also have his books in my home, such as Aqeedah Tahawiyya and Purification of the Heart. But I can no longer defend him and what he does and what he says. The man is misleading people left right and center and may Allah guide him because his lectures on sharia and jihad where the zariya (way) that led me to love these two noble aspects of Islam. He is misleading in his speech and his actions and this lack of segregation is the LEAST of the problems he poses for the people of this Ummah and it is necessary to speak against this deviance so that the common man may not fall into such traps. May Allah give us death with imaan, ameen

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Old 08-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #29
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....

Again Islam is not culturally predatory requiring one to totally annihilate one's culture, but the truth the matter is one can retain one's culture as long as it doesnt contradict clear dictates of shariah and every culture around the world has done that. For example clothing...if your native clothes covers one's awra isnt tight, isnt from illicit material like silk or gold or what not, its mubah to wear. So wearing Western clothes is not blameworthy, especially if you were born and raised in the west. Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson, also a Maliki and an academic says muslims confuse between non muslim and unislamic.

And one of the conditions of a mufti giving fatwa to an area is he knows the society, culture and area he is living in. That is why Zaytuna was created, to train American Muslims who understand the society that they are living in.
So it is your understanding that segregation is a matter of "urf" and "urf" alone? In other words, there is nothing from the primary texts (i.e. Quran and Sunnah) or the practice of the Salaf, that calls for it?

...All i know is a Maliki mufti Shaykh Salek lives in the Bay Area, many ulama have visited Zaytuna College and havent raised anything. I'll stick to their scholarship over rigidity of some groups who are short-sighted and ignorant of the issues we face here in America. i also happen to know some of the students who study at Zaytuna college. If something actually haram was happening whether it be in the classes or social events they would have said something.
But how do you know that nothing was said to the directors of Zaytuna? I mean, just because nothing was said publicly you assume that nothing was said at all?

Not only did they visited but also spoke to the founders (imam Zaid Shakir , Sh Hamza) about zaytuna college and he had some of his top western students teach there (Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.) If he had a problem with Zaytuna would he allow or recommend Shaykh Yahya to teach there? I happen to be a friend of Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.
So then are you saying that had he had even a SINGLE OBJECTION or PROBLEM with the institute he wouldn't "allow" one of his students to teach there?

So i dont see it as wrong when i was there. Bringing up Yemen has a point here. True it is very strict there but that is their 'urf. Haba'ib understand that. They also understand the dynamics of America.
So it is simply "urf" in the same way that carrying a Jambiya is a part of Yemeni "urf"? Or is it a practice that became "urf" because it was inspired by the Prophetic Sunnah or because it was explicitly called for in the Quran or Hadith?

I think that everybody would benefit if you responded to some of these points. I really don't believe the solution to increasing understanding and clarifying misunderstandings is to simply leave the forum. Of course you can ignore those who employ very pathetic "logic" in their posts or who use objectionable language or who have an inappropriate tone but to ignore legitimate points raised by other posters I don't think is fair to you or us/them.

Wa'salaam.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:49 AM   #30
jackie Obrian

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Even a donkey can call himself a Hanafi/Maliki but that does not mean he is one of them. There is no justification for this type of free mixing where hijabless women sit next to men and mix and socialize during the breaks.

Zaytuna college is a disgrace for the ummah allowing this to happen.
Other ulama differ also with Salafis. Zaytuna is nothing but a modernist, salafi, minority, American type of Islam.

Nothing to do with following a madhab.
I am doubtful that posts worded like this benefit you or those who read them.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:56 AM   #31
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Ah the glory days of Islam....during the Prophet's (saw) time....when the men lowered their gaze and woman covered appropriately....the great days of no barriers....men and woman both learnt from the great source, and communicated with each other with adab respect and modesty.

You know, I'm starting to believe if one thinks the segratgation barrier is somehow obligatory to do, compulsory as though it is a pillar in the deen, to have an extremely strict stance on it is pretty strange (because you're insisting something to be integral when it isn't necessarily so in all times in all places). It poses a problem that the there was no barrier in his (saw) masjid. I mean he would have been aware of the future of the ummah, he did things to prevent hardship on us, he informed us of all the harms he knew of and all the bencifical things. He did not put up a barrier in the masjid in his time. Isnt the hijab and proper adab by both genders enough of a purdah?

Doesn't the undeniable fact of the lack of barrier in his (saw) masjid in his (saw) time at the very least offer one a legitamate legal backing to stand upon? If so, then aren't we simply discussing differences in opinion and not differences in definitive matters?

Zaytuna may not be your cup of tea. That's fine. Find a place that teachs Islam the way you think it should be taught and let others be. Judging them only blemishes your own soul.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:25 AM   #32
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The bay area bohemianism, as we call it here, does not even represent "american islam" to be frank. Outside of pockets in the northeast and chicago, there really isn't much to speak of when it comes to muslims here.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:33 AM   #33
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:43 AM   #34
FuXA8nQM

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Not only did they visited but also spoke to the founders (imam Zaid Shakir , Sh Hamza) about zaytuna college and he had some of his top western students teach there (Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.) If he had a problem with Zaytuna would he allow or recommend Shaykh Yahya to teach there? I happen to be a friend of Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.

So i dont see it as wrong when i was there. Bringing up Yemen has a point here. True it is very strict there but that is their 'urf. Haba'ib understand that. They also understand the dynamics of America.
Brother, perhaps the noble Habaa'ib simply tolerated it on account of thinking that the institution has new converts and people newly becoming religious and so there will obviously be a learning curve and they simply feel that the administration of the institution will insha'Allah implement that it in over time. What proof do you have that they're justifying the decorum on account of "`urf"? I'm inclined to believe that this is an excuse you've made in your mind...which is nice of you....but judging what I know of them and what I've observed of them in practice, I don't think they would ever justify such acts by brushing it off as a different "`urf". Rather, I firmly believe they are tolerating it only out of knowing that the place is full of newcomers to the deen who usually don't come from a background of gender segregation. There's a massive difference between tolerating something out of being majboor or out of hikmah, VS. tolerating something because one believes it's perfectly fine due to a difference of "`urf". So please state your proof because you haven't done so already.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:46 AM   #35
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Ah the glory days of Islam....during the Prophet's (saw) time....when the men lowered their gaze and woman covered appropriately....the great days of no barriers....men and woman both learnt from the great source, and communicated with each other with adab respect and modesty.

You know, I'm starting to believe if one thinks the segratgation barrier is somehow obligatory to do, compulsory as though it is a pillar in the deen, to have an extremely strict stance on it is pretty strange (because you're insisting something to be integral when it isn't necessarily so in all times in all places). It poses a problem that the there was no barrier in his (saw) masjid. I mean he would have been aware of the future of the ummah, he did things to prevent hardship on us, he informed us of all the harms he knew of and all the bencifical things. He did not put up a barrier in the masjid in his time. Isnt the hijab and proper adab by both genders enough of a purdah?

Doesn't the undeniable fact of the lack of barrier in his (saw) masjid in his (saw) time at the very least offer one a legitamate legal backing to stand upon? If so, then aren't we simply discussing differences in opinion and not differences in definitive matters?

Zaytuna may not be your cup of tea. That's fine. Find a place that teachs Islam the way you think it should be taught and let others be. Judging them only blemishes your own soul.
No curtains in the masjid, maybe, but there were in other situations. Also, in the masjid it was men in front, women in back, not ghayr maharim sitting next to each other.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:02 PM   #36
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The bay area bohemianism, as we call it here, does not even represent "american islam" to be frank. Outside of pockets in the northeast and chicago, there really isn't much to speak of when it comes to muslims here.
I would agree with this statement.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:04 PM   #37
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This forum is full of blind followers who are easily impressed by any smear campaign as the one and only truth and all too easily let others do their thinking for them. The article is written by some British alarmist idiot who doesn't know jack about Zaytuna college and has the grammar of a two year old.

It is NOT an Islamic college, and it is NOT owned by Muslims. Its a public institution so its not reasonable to assume Islam is law there. Non-Muslims study at Zaytuna as well. Its like saying a Catholic school is owned by Christians and so Muslims should not be able to pray their salah there, when we all know Muslims send their children to Catholic schools when Islamic schools are absent and are allowed to pray their prayers there. In America, you have to open up your doors to non-Muslims as well just as Muslim universities historically opened their doors to non-Muslims, just as Rabbi Maimonides studied at the University of Al-Qarawiyyin. This is better because it creates trust with non-Muslims around you, rather than become isolated and societally irrelevant, and not provoking something like "Undercover Mosques" to expose and embarrass the Muslims.

And anybody who knows about university politics knows how hard it is even for Muslim to get a simple place to pray regular salah. It can take years to convince the administration. So I would assume they probably have similar issues in implementing traditional Islamic etiquettes such as segregation and perhaps will change in the future. Allahu Alaam.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:01 PM   #38
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Assalaam'aaleykum!

Br. Nawawi, you need to stop showing your intense disgust towards Deobandis everytime you see some one pointing finger at Zaytuna, SHY or so called watered-down version of Islam in the west.

Most of the people participating in this particular thread do not belong to the Deobandi Minhaj. Even the person criticising Zaytuna on his blog certainly don't adhere to the Deo ideology. How ironic it is then on your part to drag Deo in the discussion and take a jab at them. Not good, bro!
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:29 PM   #39
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It simply has a Muslim name or a tagline to it. Other than that, there is hardly anything Islāmic about it. That line alone is enough to discredit the entire article. And someone found it worth being posted here?
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:31 PM   #40
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How ironic it is then on your part to drag Deo in the discussion and take a jab at them.
Where did he take a jab at them, brother? He simply pointed out that the approach of other groups might be different from that of Deobandis.
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