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-   -   Shocking changes at Zaytuna College, California USA (http://www.discussworldissues.com/forums/islam/109896-shocking-changes-zaytuna-college-california-usa.html)

antilt 08-06-2012 11:51 PM

Shocking changes at Zaytuna College, California USA
 
Not so long ago, back in the late 90′s, around 1998/99, i remember zaytuna college, the foremost Islāmic establishment in America to preach & teach traditional Islam, looking like this: ...
Read more: http://mybeliefs.co.uk/2012/08/06/sh...alifornia-usa/

heennaRaf 08-07-2012 12:04 AM

The post 9/11 era has really battered the idea of ‘traditional and classical’ Islam being taught in the western world. I remember zaytuna being at the forefront in teaching traditional Islam which our greatest generation of the past, used to practice and teach.
Now the idea of traditional Islam has been replaced with an idea of ‘liberal Islam’, an Islam which shows to its non-Muslim onlookers ‘look we too can do things like you. We do not need to have classes which segregate the men and women. Or, have to avoid dressing in ‘normal’ western attire of skin-tight jeans and shirts. We too have classes where the men and women sit side by side and interact with each other, often times sharing jokes and having a good college life’.

xanonlinexan 08-07-2012 01:03 AM

Quote:

Not so long ago, back in the late 90′s, around 1998/99, i remember zaytuna college, the foremost Islāmic establishment in America to preach & teach traditional Islam, looking like this: ...
Read more: http://mybeliefs.co.uk/2012/08/06/sh...alifornia-usa/
This is blog is a joke, attacking Taleef Collective and Zaytuna College. Apparently this author doesnt know what he is talking about. I'm from California and the work of Taleef and Zaytuna is remarkable.

The blogger is obviously from a different minhaj and doesn't know all the facts behind these two groups and what the purpose is.

i also find it interesting he attacks "American Islam." History has shown that everywhere Islam went, the people of they country took ownership and put its own cultural imprint. Islam is not culturally predatory and one of the principles in islamic law is the 'urf. He also confuses the issue of non Muslim with unislamic. Not everything non muslims do is unislamic like their clothing, but everything must be looked through the lense of shariah. Pakistanis and Indians retained their clothing but modified according to the shariah. Same with Chinese, Africans, etc.

Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah who was a student of the late Qutub and Faqih Habib Ahmad Mashhur al Haddad wrote an excellent article on this issue:

http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article3.pdf

Also other ulama have visited these places and didnt hold anything blameworthy on it, this includes Habib Ali al Jiffri, Habib Umar bin Hafidh, Shaykh Yahya an Ninowy, Shaykh Salek Siddina who is a Maliki faqih from Mauritania and still resides in the bay area.

It is also important to note not everything that is done overseas works in other countries. Bottom line just because your shaykh says its wrong or your minhaj isnt the end all be all.

sisimelanyk 08-07-2012 01:52 AM

Salam

it does seem as if there was a change in the way they do things.

I'm not sure if having mixed gender classes is appropriate for any type of learning let alone the sacred sciences.

WaicurtaitfuT 08-07-2012 04:38 AM

Quote:

It is also important to note not everything that is done overseas works in other countries.
It is more important to heed the words of the Crown of Creation http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/pbuh.gif. "Culture" does not have precedence over Divine law.

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) dealt with the issue of male-female relations at length

1. Imam Abu Dawud and Imam an-Nasai relate from Sayyidatuna Aisha (Allah be pleased with him) that she says: “A women extended her hand from behind a curtain to hand a piece of paper to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). The Messenger of Allah pulled his hands back and said: “I don't know if this is a mans hand or a women's hand.” Aisha said that it was a women's hand.

This Hadith is clear that the companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to observe separation (hijab) in a way that there use to be a curtain or a veil between the sexes. If free mixing was acceptable, then there was no need for this. Besides, if such separation was against the spirit of the Sharia, the Messenger of Allah would have certainly pointed it out to her.

2) Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim narrate in their Sahih from Uqba ibn Amir (Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah said: “Do not go near [non-Mahram] women.” A person inquired: “What about in-laws?” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) responded, “The in-laws are death.”

The Prophet of Allah (Allah have mercy on him) compared male in-laws to death. This means that one should be even more careful with in-laws with regards to interaction as there is greater risk for fitna, especially given the comfortable, social atmosphere in which both parties may lower their guard and forget lowering their gazes.

3) Imam Muslim narrates from Jarir ibn Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) who says: ”Iasked Allah's Messenger about the sudden glance on a Non - Mahram. He commanded me that I should turn away my eyes.

4) Buraida reported that the Messenger of Allah said to Ali [Allah be pleased with him]: “O Ali! don't allow your glance to follow a glance, because the first [glance] is forgiven and not the second. [Narrated by Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud and Imam Ahmad].

The above mentioned [and other] verses of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] indicate the importance of observing the proper limits of gender interaction.

The following are the rules deduced from the Qur'an and Sunnah regarding the social behavior of men and women, as outlined by the scholars:

a) Both men and women should dress properly and modestly, such that their nakedness (awra) is covered with loose clothing that does not define the shape of the limbs below. This, of course, includes women being in proper hijab, both avoiding tight-fitting clothing;

b) Men and women who are not immediately related should not talk to each other unnecessarily. When there is a genuine need (such as work or education) to talk, the conversation should be in a modest, restrained manner, and be limited to the extent of the need;

c) It is from the guidance of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that women cannot wear fragrances that might catch the attention of strange men;

d) Both men and women should lower their gazes. It is disliked to look at someone young of the opposite sex even without the fear of desire; when one even fears desire, it is impermissible to look;

e) Particular care must be given to one’s interaction with in-laws, relatives, and others one is likely to have sustained contact with, such as co-workers.

In the light of the above, we can see that the free intermingling of both the sexes is not allowed. Islam enjoins on both men and women to cast down their looks in presence of each other. How is it possible for men and women to meet freely in dinners, tea parties and other social events with looks cast down?. There is not a single instance in the history of early Islam of men and women being allowed to meet each other freely in any social, political or religious gathering. Even in the Masjid men and women had their separate rows at the time of prayers. The Hadith considers the free mixing with in-laws as death, as there is a greater risk of Fitna.

In one narration, listening to the voice of a woman with lust has been termed as adultery. The scholars have debated whether the voice of a women is Awrah, although according to the Hanafi Madhab it is not considered awrah, but it shows the importance of keeping away from free mixing. If a young woman says Salam to a Non-Mahram, he should reply within himself and not let the woman hear his reply [see “Taqreerat” of Rafi'e on the “Hashiya” of Ibn Abideen].

Ibn Abideen says in his “Hashiya”: If one fears Fitna or lust then it will be Haram for him to look at the face of a woman. This was in the early days. However, in our times [Ibn Abideen's] one is not allowed to look at the face of a Non-Mahram woman, not because it's part of the Awra, rather due to Fitna.

It is thus clear that Islam insist on the segregation of sexes to the utmost extent compatible with individual and collective self-preservation. Its pattern of society is one in which men and women do not intermingle too freely. If intermixture becomes necessary at any time, then too much freedom must be avoided and all the rules and conditions must be observed.

In conclusion, mixed gatherings are not permissible. Men and women must sit apart from each other. If they sit apart and there is no free mixing [as was also mentioned in the Question] then it will be permissible. May Allah guide us to the straight path. Ameen http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=1341

La ilaha illa'Llah Muhammadu r-rasulullah http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/pbuh.gif

Z1IRo4Ap 08-07-2012 04:45 AM

one thing i always notice: hamza yusuf followers never accept any criticism (even if valid) of him. it reminds me of the adnan oktar followers. i find such groups and their views hard to take seriously. there is always rudeness and intolerance. please correct that http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/insh.gif

Wahwlsnt 08-07-2012 04:47 AM

Quote:

one thing i always notice: hamza yusuf followers never accept any criticism (even if valid) of him. it reminds me of the adnan oktar followers. i find such groups and their views hard to take seriously. there is always rudeness and intolerance. please correct that http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/insh.gif
EVERY group is like this.

HitAttetlyTek 08-07-2012 04:51 AM

Quote:

EVERY group is like this.
i am not talking about entire legion of sh.hamza's followers. maybe there are sane people too.
also i have seen 'groups' which do not deem their central figure(s) above any criticism , accepts they can make mistakes and are tolerant and open to debate.

Reocourgigiot 08-07-2012 04:52 AM

Quote:

EVERY group is like this.
I suggest you must not make conclusions about EVERY group by seeing the attitude of just a bunch of them. Secondly, this attitude varies from person to person, you can't just say every person in a certain group. The more mature the attitude in dealing with criticism the more there is pure intention to serve the deen.

Escamsrasiush 08-07-2012 05:01 AM

sorry, i meant there are people in every group who are like this.

my fault for not being clear.

DoctorNelsonOnten 08-07-2012 05:34 AM

You should email Imam Zaid Shakir to voice your concerns.

arraxylap 08-07-2012 06:17 AM

What is the fatwa of the Malikis on mixed gender classroom? My question is because while going through the muwatta I read Imam Malik's position that it is permissible for a person's wife to have meal together or serve the guests when non-mahram guests are present.

DoctorTOneery 08-07-2012 06:31 AM

Quote:

This is blog is a joke, attacking Taleef Collective and Zaytuna College. Apparently this author doesnt know what he is talking about. I'm from California and the work of Taleef and Zaytuna is remarkable.

The blogger is obviously from a different minhaj and doesn't know all the facts behind these two groups and what the purpose is.

i also find it interesting he attacks "American Islam." History has shown that everywhere Islam went, the people of they country took ownership and put its own cultural imprint. Islam is not culturally predatory and one of the principles in islamic law is the 'urf. He also confuses the issue of non Muslim with unislamic. Not everything non muslims do is unislamic like their clothing, but everything must be looked through the lense of shariah. Pakistanis and Indians retained their clothing but modified according to the shariah. Same with Chinese, Africans, etc.

Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah who was a student of the late Qutub and Faqih Habib Ahmad Mashhur al Haddad wrote an excellent article on this issue:

http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article3.pdf

Also other ulama have visited these places and didnt hold anything blameworthy on it, this includes Habib Ali al Jiffri, Habib Umar bin Hafidh, Shaykh Yahya an Ninowy, Shaykh Salek Siddina who is a Maliki faqih from Mauritania and still resides in the bay area.

It is also important to note not everything that is done overseas works in other countries. Bottom line just because your shaykh says its wrong or your minhaj isnt the end all be all.
bismi Llah...

Has Habib 'Umar seen such a lack of segregation? I'm not referring to the absence of barriers, but to the fact that men and women are sitting next to each other in a learning environment. I ask because this type of behaviour was troubling us, especially due to the fact that Habib's name was being used to justify this, so I asked the noble Habib. He was against the mixing of genders, and he specifically gave the learning environment as an example where no mixing of the genders should take place. In fact, al-Habib endorses the barrier, and 'complete segregation' where possible, citing the Hadith of as-Sayyidah 'A'ishah (where she says the Messenger would have prohibited women from mosque, had he seen their condition in her time. salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam).

Please do think well before involving names like al-Habib 'Umar and al-Habib Ahmad Mash-hur in this. Jazakum Allahu khayran.

dwestemesse 08-07-2012 06:47 AM

Quote:

bismi Llah...

Has Habib 'Umar seen such a lack of segregation? I'm not referring to the absence of barriers, but to the fact that men and women are sitting next to each other in a learning environment. I ask because this type of behaviour was troubling us, especially due to the fact that Habib's name was being used to justify this, so I asked the noble Habib. He was against the mixing of genders, and he specifically gave the learning environment as an example where no mixing of the genders should take place. In fact, al-Habib endorses the barrier, and 'complete segregation' where possible, citing the Hadith of as-Sayyidah 'A'ishah (where she says the Messenger would have prohibited women from mosque, had he seen their condition in her time. salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam).

Please do think well before involving names like al-Habib 'Umar and al-Habib Ahmad Mash-hur in this. Jazakum Allahu khayran.
The strictness of the shafi madhab on this is clear to see. And Yemen continues to be one of the most strict in this practice. So bringing in the names of those scholars I agree was wrong. Some people think that just because a scholar visited a place or program it implies each side automatically endorses everything about each other, which is not necessarily true.

That said, I would like to know what the maliki scholars in specific would say on this.

spapsinee 08-07-2012 07:20 AM

Quote:

bismi Llah...

Has Habib 'Umar seen such a lack of segregation? I'm not referring to the absence of barriers, but to the fact that men and women are sitting next to each other in a learning environment. I ask because this type of behaviour was troubling us, especially due to the fact that Habib's name was being used to justify this, so I asked the noble Habib. He was against the mixing of genders, and he specifically gave the learning environment as an example where no mixing of the genders should take place. In fact, al-Habib endorses the barrier, and 'complete segregation' where possible, citing the Hadith of as-Sayyidah 'A'ishah (where she says the Messenger would have prohibited women from mosque, had he seen their condition in her time. salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam).

Please do think well before involving names like al-Habib 'Umar and al-Habib Ahmad Mash-hur in this. Jazakum Allahu khayran.
As Salamu Alaykum

Please think well? I happen be part of the Ba Alawi Tariqa ( i took bayya to the tariqa from Habib Umar himself in 2002 while at hajj in Madinah) and my teachers in Shafi'i fiqh were primarily graduates from Dar Al Mustafa. I am also from California and understand the Bay area very well. So you are saying that Habib Umar hasn't visited Zaytuna College and seen how they run their classes? Well he has, and has visited Taleef Collective and he praised both institutions. If he had a problem with how they are being conducted it would have been voiced and people would hear about it. Habib Umar also understands 'urf which many on this forum seem to forget thinking that the Deoband way is the only way of running things.

I'm sure you will raise similar objections to Deen Tight, the documentary about hip hop and American Muslims...yet Habib Ali al Jiffri not only approved of the documentary but also helped finance it through Tabah. The director Mustafa Davis also studied in Tarim and he was encouraged by Habib Umar to continue directing and making movies.

I know this because he is a good friend of mine and one our cities was part of Habib Umar's tour to the USA.

If you have a problem with Zaytuna college or Taleef talk to the organizers about it. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Shaykh Tahir Anwar, Shaykh Abdullah bin Hamid, Imam Zaid Shakir and others understand the ahkam and also understand the big picture when it comes to 'urf and other aspects. The fact they allowed such things shows that either there is clear ikhtilaf on this issue. Had it been clear cut as all of you say there would be no disagreement. Imam Zaid is a Shafii, Sh Taha Anwar a Hanafi, Shaykh Abdullah a Maliki.

I'm quite fed up with this whole accusation of American Islam being "Watering down the deen." the Deoband minhaj isnt the end all be all of what Islam is. It works in the indian subcontinent and in pakistan and other places and it originated as a response to British Colonialism and Christian missionaries. Again Islam is not culturally predatory requiring one to totally annihilate one's culture, but the truth the matter is one can retain one's culture as long as it doesnt contradict clear dictates of shariah and every culture around the world has done that. For example clothing...if your native clothes covers one's awra isnt tight, isnt from illicit material like silk or gold or what not, its mubah to wear. So wearing Western clothes is not blameworthy, especially if you were born and raised in the west. Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson, also a Maliki and an academic says muslims confuse between non muslim and unislamic.

And one of the conditions of a mufti giving fatwa to an area is he knows the society, culture and area he is living in. That is why Zaytuna was created, to train American Muslims who understand the society that they are living in.

I have nothing more to say on this. So say whatever you are going to say. All i know is a Maliki mufti Shaykh Salek lives in the Bay Area, many ulama have visited Zaytuna College and havent raised anything. I'll stick to their scholarship over rigidity of some groups who are short-sighted and ignorant of the issues we face here in America. i also happen to know some of the students who study at Zaytuna college. If something actually haram was happening whether it be in the classes or social events they would have said something.

NvrNoNowX 08-07-2012 07:26 AM

Quote:

one thing i always notice: hamza yusuf followers never accept any criticism (even if valid) of him. it reminds me of the adnan oktar followers. i find such groups and their views hard to take seriously. there is always rudeness and intolerance. please correct that http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/insh.gif
NOTE: im not a shaykh hamza yusuf follower. Nor do i agree with him on every point. Nor do I believe in group think. Funny you say that when people cant criticize the Deoband on this forum. Some deoband on this forum think their minhaj is the true embodiment of the Sunnah and all of us are just watered down Muslims. Ironic the Deoband movement is only roughly 200 years old and is a neo tradionalist reaction to colonialism.

The Haba'ib have been around since Al muhajjir Imam Ahmad ibn Isa when he made hijra late 9th century CE and resided in Hadramawt and established a long lineage of top of the line Shafi'i scholars and Tasawwuf masters.

GrolmangHat27 08-07-2012 07:33 AM

Quote:

Imam Zaid is a Shafii, Sh Taha Anwar a Hanafi, Shaykh Abdullah a Maliki.
Even a donkey can call himself a Hanafi/Maliki but that does not mean he is one of them. There is no justification for this type of free mixing where hijabless women sit next to men and mix and socialize during the breaks.

Zaytuna college is a disgrace for the ummah allowing this to happen.

Toscoropreark 08-07-2012 07:33 AM

Quote:

The strictness of the shafi madhab on this is clear to see. And Yemen continues to be one of the most strict in this practice. So bringing in the names of those scholars I agree was wrong. Some people think that just because a scholar visited a place or program it implies each side automatically endorses everything about each other, which is not necessarily true.

That said, I would like to know what the maliki scholars in specific would say on this.
Not only did they visited but also spoke to the founders (imam Zaid Shakir , Sh Hamza) about zaytuna college and he had some of his top western students teach there (Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.) If he had a problem with Zaytuna would he allow or recommend Shaykh Yahya to teach there? I happen to be a friend of Shaykh Yahya Rhodus.

So i dont see it as wrong when i was there. Bringing up Yemen has a point here. True it is very strict there but that is their 'urf. Haba'ib understand that. They also understand the dynamics of America.

Angeheade 08-07-2012 07:35 AM

Quote:

Even a donkey can call himself a Hanafi/Maliki but that does not mean he is one of them. There is no justification for this type of free mixing where hijabless women sit next to men and mix and socialize during the breaks.

Zaytuna college is a disgrace for the ummah allowing this to happen.
I'm glad you are not running things. Because other ulama differ. Sorry it bursts your bubble on what you think Islam is. I doubt you can hang even a second with any of Zaytuna's scholars. Go back to your rigid bubble.

Z2sc8gEz 08-07-2012 07:37 AM

Quote:

I'm glad you are not running things. Because other ulama differ. Sorry it bursts your bubble on what you think Islam is. I doubt you can hang even a second with any of Zaytuna's scholars. Go back to your rigid bubble.
Other ulama differ also with Salafis. Zaytuna is nothing but a modernist, salafi, minority, American type of Islam.

Nothing to do with following a madhab.


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