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Old 12-19-2011, 05:33 AM   #1
brilkyPlayday

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Default Iran stands up to West while Saudis are puppets....why?
Iran seems to be the only country besides Turkey that can withstand pressure from the WEST.
Saui Arabia can't even defend itself without America's help. How did it come to this?
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:08 AM   #2
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It is a complete farce and it's got a lot of the West fooled. Why is it that the US has done nothing about Iran, despite Iran continuing to mock the US whenever possible? Why is it that Iran, for all its talk against Israel, has not taken a single step against the "Zionist entity" as the Iranians call it? Every Arab country or a citizen of it has been killed by the Americans or the Israelis. No Iranians have been hurt in this entire fiasco. It is just a facade. The only people that the Iranians have attacked since the Iraq war are other Muslims and other Iranians.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:53 AM   #3
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It is a complete farce and it's got a lot of the West fooled. Why is it that the US has done nothing about Iran, despite Iran continuing to mock the US whenever possible? Why is it that Iran, for all its talk against Israel, has not taken a single step against the "Zionist entity" as the Iranians call it? Every Arab country or a citizen of it has been killed by the Americans or the Israelis. No Iranians have been hurt in this entire fiasco. It is just a facade. The only people that the Iranians have attacked since the Iraq war are other Muslims and other Iranians.
Iran and Turkey can defend themselves against any foreign invasion while most Arab countries would fall like Libya or Iraq. Arabs need to join other muslim countries and develop their own weapons. Saudi buys all weapons from America and America is even traing Saudis to fly the Aiplanes they just bought with Israels blessing.
Even the Pakistanis don't depend on America for all its weapons. Pakistan develops internally and has agreements to develop with China and Russia.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:02 PM   #4
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Because the Saudi leaders are employees of USA while the Iranians work for Russia.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:30 PM   #5
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Iran and Turkey can defend themselves against any foreign invasion while most Arab countries would fall like Libya or Iraq. Arabs need to join other muslim countries and develop their own weapons. Saudi buys all weapons from America and America is even traing Saudis to fly the Aiplanes they just bought with Israels blessing.
Even the Pakistanis don't depend on America for all its weapons. Pakistan develops internally and has agreements to develop with China and Russia.


Saudi Arabian monarchy is supported by the Americans, there is no doubt in it. But the Saudis themselves - the citizenry - has taken part in jihad against the Americans on various fronts. The same cannot be said of any Iranian. If anything, Iran has been the biggest murderer of Sunnis in the region.

By the way, why is your avatar promoting "Nation of Islam"? You do realize that "Nation of Islam" is an anti-Islamic, racist, kaafir organization, right?
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:03 PM   #6
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Iran seems to be the only country besides Turkey that can withstand pressure from the WEST.
Saui Arabia can't even defend itself without America's help. How did it come to this?
May be , Iranians are not addicted to Chicken biryani. They also do not open food restaurants in the Western cities.


###############
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Regarding Saudi Arabia , its grass-root sciene education system is not really strong. Money alone can not improve education system quickly.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:09 PM   #7
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It is a complete farce and it's got a lot of the West fooled. Why is it that the US has done nothing about Iran, despite Iran continuing to mock the US whenever possible? Why is it that Iran, for all its talk against Israel, has not taken a single step against the "Zionist entity" as the Iranians call it? Every Arab country or a citizen of it has been killed by the Americans or the Israelis. No Iranians have been hurt in this entire fiasco. It is just a facade. The only people that the Iranians have attacked since the Iraq war are other Muslims and other Iranians.
Assalamu alaykum

I agree with abdul wahab.

Americans are playing the mind games. They are presenting Iran as a powerful nation to sell arms to the arabs.

During the recent friction, Hezbollah (backed by the Iranians) could dominate in the war against the Israelis. Was that not a drama. How could Israelis get frightened by hezbollah rockets.

Create a powerful Iran and sell arms OR prolong the stay in the gulf.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:52 PM   #8
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Iran seems to be the only country besides Turkey that can withstand pressure from the WEST.
Saui Arabia can't even defend itself without America's help. How did it come to this?
Well the Wahhabi's were the founding fathers of the current Saudi state they conspired against the Ottoman Khilafah and established a pseudo religious state with the help of the British and some corrupt bedouin tribes the Saud family and the Aalee Shaykh's (Wahhabist family wich traces it's lineage all the way back to Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab) the so called ''Shaykh al Islam'' ''Mujaddid'' ''Muwahhid'' of the pseudo Salafi movement also known as Wahhabi movement they usurped the wealth of the Ummah and have always stood side by side with the Americans and the British and the so called Committee of Salafi scholars there in Saudi Arabia are like Fatwa machines for the government. Iran stands against the West but is not a friend of the Islamic Ummah either in Iran non-Muslims have more rights than let's say Sunni Muslims. Slightly off-topic but what's up with the Nation of Islam picture?
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:18 PM   #9
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. Slightly off-topic but what's up with the Nation of Islam picture?
The nation of Islam brought more Americans to Islam than any other group or movement in America. I have nothing but respect for Farrakan even though I am sunni.
When I was living in Orlando, Fl. we had a masjid right across the steet from a NOI mosque. Nothing but respect was given between us muslims toward the NOI followers.

So many muslims in America started off in Nation of Islam or five percenter and back in history you had Moorish Science Temple.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:00 AM   #10
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The nation of Islam brought more Americans to Islam than any other group or movement in America. I have nothing but respect for Farrakan even though I am sunni.
When I was living in Orlando, Fl. we had a masjid right across the steet from a NOI mosque. Nothing but respect was given between us muslims toward the NOI followers.

So many muslims in America started off in Nation of Islam or five percenter and back in history you had Moorish Science Temple.
This has got to be the biggest joke ever. NOI brought people to kufr, not Islam. And no, statistically, the only people NOI brought to their cult were those who were brainwashed into thinking that the white man was after them at all times. It was no noble or spiritual reason, but simply a racist reason. All these racial supremacist cults were founded because of the consequences of African slavery. How come you do not see any of these cults being formed within Africa?

Also, the "NOI mosque" is called a temple.

And there is zero evidence to support your claim that most Americans converted from one kufr to another (from non-Islamic religions to the non-Islamic Nation of "Islam") rather than from those religions to orthodox Islam.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:12 AM   #11
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Well the Wahhabi's were the founding fathers of the current Saudi state they conspired against the Ottoman Khilafah and established a pseudo religious state with the help of the British and some corrupt bedouin tribes the Saud family and the Aalee Shaykh's (Wahhabist family wich traces it's lineage all the way back to Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab) the so called ''Shaykh al Islam'' ''Mujaddid'' ''Muwahhid'' of the pseudo Salafi movement also known as Wahhabi movement they usurped the wealth of the Ummah and have always stood side by side with the Americans and the British and the so called Committee of Salafi scholars there in Saudi Arabia are like Fatwa machines for the government. Iran stands against the West but is not a friend of the Islamic Ummah either in Iran non-Muslims have more rights than let's say Sunni Muslims. Slightly off-topic but what's up with the Nation of Islam picture?
Nahda,


I could not have put it better myself. The Al-Saud family and the seditious manner in which they came to power, who their backers were, the precedent they set in coming to power. Tells you everything you need to know about them. They are not working in the interests of Muslims, rather themselves and their western backers. I would not go to deep in the actions of the Fatwa committee of Saudi or the scholars, they have no choice. If they show dissent or stand against the ruling Al Saud family, they will be jailed and even worse religious leaders will be put in place. They are doing what they can under such circumstances - circumstances which exist in many muslim countries I may add.

What is interesting is how the US manages to keep the Gulf Arabs busy buying arms, spending money on wasteful endeavours. The benefit of that money, energy and effort on their own people and the whole muslim world would have been immense. They could have played an important role for the Palestinians and aided them in securing their rights - but the 'quartet' of nations that negotiate agreements on the Israel/Palestinian does not include the Arab league. The Arabs are powerless because the main players, the oil-rich gulf states, have been in the pocket of the US for decades. Not just the Arabs, the Organisation of Islamic Conference 'OIC' is a mere talking shop for the same reasons. They are not independent, cannot even make their own policy, and are compromised beyond any use to Muslims. Any rich muslim can build a masjid, these are nation states in the heart of the Arabia who are seemingly useless when it comes to aiding muslims on the world stage. Yet stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the most ruthless of un-islamic interests in the region. Seriously how did it come to this?

What is truely appalling is the few mideast dictators who try and lead an independent policy of the US, are targeted for removal and killing (Saddam etc). They were not nice in anyway and, not confuse support for their actions with the argument here, but were dangerous to the US longterm regional objectives. This is not a question about their Islam, but what they are doing for Muslims and exactly why they are non-existant as a force in the international stage.

Iran has always been a target of the US and western imperialism. From the days of the Anglo-Persian oil company (aka BP) to the times of democratically-elected Muhammad Musaddeq, who was overthrown in a CIA backed-coup and replaced with the Shah - that was blatant medling by the US in another countries affairs for which Barak Obama acknowledged and apologised for a couple of years ago. The overthrow of Shah with the return of Khomenie did not change the US's behaviour. The US did loose an important ally at that time. But they armed and unleashed Saddam on Iran - which made the hatred in the region even worse - like poison for both Sunni's and Shia's who are essentially neighboors. Millions were killed in Iraq/Iran war - for what???

What is interesting is how the US have kept potential regional 'rivals' busy killing each other since after the 79 revolution. Saddam's Iraq was armed and backed by the US/West and funded by Sunni gulf states to launch war against Iran. Iranians clearly did not fold and resisted for 8 years against Saddam. They too were armed by nations like Russia/Soviet Union and France, arguably rightly to defend their territory against the army of Saddam backed by the west and Sunni gulf Arab states. What becomes clearly evident is the money earned by these nations through oil, was payed-back to Western and Un-Islamic interests to purchase weapons. It is an enormous cartel that tricks and dupes others into a state of war, conflict where millions lose their lives for absolutely no legitimate purpose whatsoever.

Of course, the west achieves its goals of killing-off two significant adverseries with one stone. It is shocking how the Sunni gulf states allowed and aided the US in their war against Iraq. The Sunni's are the ones who bore the brunt of violence - especially when the US decided it was going to smash down Sunni resistance in places like Falluja and Ramadi - I hope the leaders of Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain see the consequences of betraying the Iraqi Sunni's when they (literally) threw them to the Satan.


Shockingly, the same old tactics are being used now by the US. The west is arming the Sunni gulf states with weaponry and offensive systems. Just the US alone has something like $100billion in contracts to upgrade and improve the militaries of the Gulf states. It has already designated the GCC (Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman) a strategic partner for NATO. In other words, NATO will use the Sunni gulf states to fight its wars in the future. As usual, the gulf states accept everything they're told - owing their existance to the west. Others, can see the game being played here.

These Sunni gulf states, like Saddam Hussein's Iraq before them, are being built-up for a fight (or maybe, built-up for the kill). Like Saddam before them, they will be betrayed by the US/West. Israel will remain the dominant player for decades until Sunni gulf states can become independent of the west. That is unlikely to happen as most of their ruling elites trail the US like a dog trails its master.

One is in awe of how the west is able to manipulate these countries and only some of them, who have been on the receiving end, understand the game that is being played (ala Saddam after the first gulf war, Iranians after the 79 revolution, Gaddafi recently). It is incredibly unfortunate that most of them are socialist dictatorships run by Muslims or not even considered Muslim by some. But they see the dangers of aligning too closely with any major power and have acted to develop their own capacities - like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Malaysia etc. Why does it take our leaders so long to see the grass is not greener on the other side?

Be in no doubt, the losers in these conflicts are Muslims, whether it be Sunni or Shia, on the fringes of Islam or not. Iranian people, Iraqi people have known of western agression for long, its built into them and they can see western meddling from a mile-away. I fear the Arab Sunni's in the Gulf still suffer from sudden amnesia, so much so they cannot see they are being played, skillfully led into wars - skillfully made to committ their vast fortunes into unwinnable wars. Like Saddam before them, a point will come when the Sunni's will not be so important and the US will brazenly turn on them. The sooner they understand this and except the error of their ways, the better. Maybe I am wrong, I expect that is the case. But don't tell me the leadership of the gulf region is the way of the Salaf because I just don't see it. All I see is a bunch of near-blind bediouns who came to power like bandits and are a threat to their neigboors and wider Muslim world. It is the Sunni gulf who have invited Kufr to the region and taken them as 'awliya'.



Allahu A'lam
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:17 AM   #12
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Important notice:

Go back to the 60s and you'll see that Saudi was standing up to the west and they cut the oil at some point, while Iran was pro-Israel and pro-USA, so time is changing and politics change, nothing is static.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:44 AM   #13
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What is truely appalling is the few mideast dictators who try and lead an independent policy of the US, are targeted for removal and killing (Saddam etc). They were not nice in anyway and, not confuse support for their actions with the argument here, but were dangerous to the US longterm regional objectives. This is not a question about their Islam, but what they are doing for Muslims and exactly why they are non-existant as a force in the international stage.

Iran has always been a target of the US and western imperialism. From the days of the Anglo-Persian oil company (aka BP) to the times of democratically-elected Muhammad Musaddeq, who was overthrown in a CIA backed-coup and replaced with the Shah - that was blatant medling by the US in another countries affairs for which Barak Obama acknowledged and apologised for a couple of years ago. The overthrow of Shah with the return of Khomenie did not change the US's behaviour. The US did loose an important ally at that time. But they armed and unleashed Saddam on Iran - which made the hatred in the region even worse - like poison for both Sunni's and Shia's who are essentially neighboors. Millions were killed in Iraq/Iran war - for what???

Allahu A'lam
You are a thousand percent correct. Brillant post.
Muslims are being played one against the other and Israel is the puppet master. Iran and Saudi should be allies instead of enemies.
The Military Industrial Complex wins when muslims turn on each other. Muslims need to be independent of the West.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:18 AM   #14
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Important notice:

Go back to the 60s and you'll see that Saudi was standing up to the west and they cut the oil at some point, while Iran was pro-Israel and pro-USA, so time is changing and politics change, nothing is static.

In 1973 when President Muhammad Anwar Sadat (Rahimahullah) fought against the Jewish state it was Muhammad Shah Pahlavi of Iran who had an oil deal with the West but instead of sending the oil to the West he sent it to Misr to support the Egyptians this step was decisive for the Egyptians he also helped the Egyptians out financially. Salafis are the only group nowadays who are extremely loyal to the hand that feeds them (Saud family)
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:28 AM   #15
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Minister Louis Farrakhan is not a man to admire he incited hatred against Malcolm X (even after his death)
Imam Warith Deen Muhammad (rahimahullah) is a man to admire he brought most of the Nation followers to Sunni Islam even Farrakhan joined him for a short period but later on revived the Nation of Islam including it's doctrines Farrakhan is notoriously known for promoting the idea that he is God and he even claims that he met Jesus and that he represents him he also promotes Christian heresies like calling people ''children of God'' the man lives a luxurious lifestyle with his expensive suits and temple money he reminds me of those evangelical tv preachers there in the USA he built a palace/temple with the money Gaddafi gave him. Anything he says about political issues he got from other writers he's not even creative or indepedent. He's an old man now i hope he repents and that he will embrace true Islam otherwise he's nothing but a Dajjal.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:53 AM   #16
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The shah of iran was a puppet figure installed and backed by the Cia, every cia agents admits this. Iran would be looking out for its self, its more friendly to Russia and China ( the real big fish of the world),..... Iranian presence may not be present in any on going conflict, but they support them. e.g. they give loads of money to hamas, palestine etc....
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:01 AM   #17
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Important notice:

Go back to the 60s and you'll see that Saudi was standing up to the west and they cut the oil at some point, while Iran was pro-Israel and pro-USA, so time is changing and politics change, nothing is static.
The Saudi oil embargo in the time of King Faisal was an exceptional case, not the norm. The norm for the Al-Saud ruling dynasty (from the beginning of their rule) is comprehensive support for the US and its policy objectives. Not just the Al-Saud dynasty, all the gulf Arab states - they are like American aircraft carriers. Iran's complex history indicates the exact opposite. From the days of The Anglo-Persian/BP oil company and the vast oil riches that were first discovered in Persia then the wider mid-east, they have been in a continued struggle to purge their nation of foreign interference and try and keep it independent. Their exception is the period under the dictator Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (courtesy of the US) in which the US brought the Shah to power, propped him up and started the Iranian nuclear energy programme (yes, the US started that programme decades ago). What largely Sunni nations like Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria etc are going through now, the Iranians have been through that stage already - ridding their nation of unwanted foreign intervention by the major powers and instillation of compliant dictatorial leaders.

Unfortunately, with influental and very rich members of the Al-Saud family buying stakes in Newscorp, Apple, Twitter, Google etc, it is incredibly difficult for Saudi citizens to organise against the ruling monarchy like Libyan's, Egyptians or Syrians have via the usual social media outlets. As a last resort, they should pray to Allah for Hidayah and ask him to better the situation. There is little else they can do.


Allahu A'lam
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:36 AM   #18
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A great discussion.

Nahda,

I fear the Arab Sunni's in the Gulf still suffer from sudden amnesia, ...
Long lasting amnesia.

All I see is a bunch of near-blind bediouns who came to power like bandits and are a threat to their neigboors and wider Muslim world.
Allahu A'lam You have given a valuable overview but bringing in passionate rhetoric serves only to dilute the gains of the painstaking analysis. Others also have expressed similar arguments but it usually does not help much.

Also nobody brought into focus the damage done by Arab nationalism.

Having said that we can now come to the consultation stage. What should be done and who can do that is the question. One thing is apparent that people have spent too much time in a state that ignores the demands of the interests of Islam and Ummah. Also kindly make serious efforts to avoid nothing can be done type of assertions.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:36 PM   #19
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In 1973 when President Muhammad Anwar Sadat (Rahimahullah) fought against the Jewish state it was Muhammad Shah Pahlavi of Iran who had an oil deal with the West but instead of sending the oil to the West he sent it to Misr to support the Egyptians this step was decisive for the Egyptians he also helped the Egyptians out financially. Salafis are the only group nowadays who are extremely loyal to the hand that feeds them (Saud family)
1- al-Sadat was a Kaffir.

2- I said 60s so why talk about 70s?
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:32 PM   #20
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A great discussion.


Long lasting amnesia.


You have given a valuable overview but bringing in passionate rhetoric serves only to dilute the gains of the painstaking analysis. Others also have expressed similar arguments but it usually does not help much.

Also nobody brought into focus the damage done by Arab nationalism.

Having said that we can now come to the consultation stage. What should be done and who can do that is the question. One thing is apparent that people have spent too much time in a state that ignores the demands of the interests of Islam and Ummah. Also kindly make serious efforts to avoid nothing can be done type of assertions.
Yes, sometimes one can become passionate when discussing such issues. Best leaving the passion out of it.

That is a very interesting question you ask regards Arab nationalism. I believe there are several factors that have led to erosion amongst the Ummah and its move away from an Islamic system of governance. Nationalism, be it Arab, Indo/Pakistani/Bangladeshi, Turkish etc was the first real issue that chipped away at the unity of the Muslims in several regions. The funny thing is, it comes in many different names 'freedom, self-governance, democracy'. Yet once you take away the 'humanitarian' jargon, it becomes very clear that it is nothing but 'divide and rule' at work. As always, history confirms this kind of sedition has been happening for long. Overtly in the past under colonial rule and instigation, Just far more sophisticated the way it is done now and the names used to cloak it - right to freedom, democracy, self-determination, woman's rights and empowerment etc.

It is no surprise, this sort of sedition was instigated by the colonial powers of Britain in the subcontinent and Britain and France in the mideast against the Turks and Arabs. They are masters at this and have been, and even today continue these schemes under many different 'sugar-coated' names.

Wallahi, everything happens with the will of Allah. This Arab spring, if the people in the region can work towards pleasing Allah, may have some lasting benefit for the Muslim Ummah (I really hope for that). I am not so sure about the idea that the Arab spring is one big 'regional' movement however. It is clear as daylight the US/west are backing their dictators in the gulf region in counter-revolutions. While they are going after the few independent countries in the region - not for democracy or ideals of freedom or Islam - simply to install yet another dictator who will do their bidding and take care of their interests for another few decades.

Hoping Libya would be a good place to start, it seems the Islamic parties are being sidelined there for US-backed militias led by men who have been living in the US and Europe for years. This is the problem, these rebel groups have been over-reliant on western support to get them into power - there is no such thing as a free-meal, will they have to payback NATO for its 8 months ground support and bombing services. Is it military bases in the deserts of Libya they will have to agree to? a strategic location for US forces facing the African continent and dotted around Libya's oilfields? Or a secular democratic government running Libya with western financial interests holding all the leverage?

Libya is a debt-free country with over £100billion in assets deposited around the world in accounts and investments plus a relatively large gold reserve - no Muammar Gaddafi did not loot the country as some may believe due to Qatari and western propoganda. It is insulting, we know what Gaddafi is and what he stood for when these people were seemingly happy to deal with him. The money was invested to generate income for Libya - maybe it was not fairly distributed and some cronies took bigger shares for themselves - but every nation with Surplus income does the same - especially oil-rich gulf nations - they invest it to generate income for their nations benefit. I really fear Libya, a debt-free country for decades, will be forced into taking IMF/Worldbank loans upon agreement with the new technocrat leaders, that would be a trajedy. It would be the start of un-ending debt, with compound interest eating away at money that belongs to the ordinary Libyan citizen. It is taking control of a countries finances using the back-door method - IMF/Worldbank loans usually come with conditions that would force a nation to lose sovereignty over its own economy to private, (usually) western interests. Look at what is happening to western banks to see how greatly they have been run. Again, this 'creeping' capitalism that encourages Ribba will come under clever names like 'banking sector reform', 'modernisation' 'structural adjustemnts' for the future of the nation etc.

Of course, there are many aspects that will play out, we can but pray for Allah to resolve the situation peacefully and favourably for Muslims. Nationalism is there, but being open and engaging in dialogue should help to foster a climate where Muslims can build bridges without resorting to war against each-other. That is on a national level for parties and institutions to build those links and push them at the highest levels (without foreign interference or interefernce of muslim leaders, which is clearly on behalf of western nations). Raising awareness and praying to Allah is the least we can do individually, as caring Muslims.




Allah knows best.
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