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Old 11-24-2010, 06:39 PM   #21
BoarmomorurrY

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I use to do it just to get on some peoples nerves.
Talking about having the proper intention to do something which can at most be a mustahab!!!
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:43 PM   #22
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its obvious that there is difference in usool with this issue. like stated it is weak not fabricated. you in tabligh jamaat. lets say we start speaking bad about fadhail a'mal based on the fact that there are many weak ahadeeth there in.
FA doesnt say to do any action like do push up 20 time after prayer, you will get reward for this weak hadith!

its about an action which has been introduced via weak hadith, and not the amount of the virtue.

in FA all weak hadith are related with sahih hadith and only differes amount of virtue, and not introducing any specific action like kiss this and wipe that. this is related wit fiqh, and no action is allowed which is based upon weak hadith. which is already cleared by bro abuhajira.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:46 PM   #23
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Talking about having the proper intention to do something which can at most be a mustahab!!!
hey it was like 10 years back man. I was still in school
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:50 PM   #24
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FA doesnt say to do any action like do push up 20 time after prayer, you will get reward for this weak hadith!

its about an action which has been introduced via weak hadith, and not the amount of the virtue.

in FA all weak hadith are related with sahih hadith and only differes amount of virtue, and not introducing any specific action like kiss this and wipe that. this is related wit fiqh, and no action is allowed which is based upon weak hadith. which is already cleared by bro abuhajira.
ok then tell it to sh Afif, its clear what his opinion is based on ijtihad by the shafi method. are you telling me that you hanafis know the shafi method of usool better that a scholar from the shafi madhab. like he said it still doesnt make it haraam either
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:58 PM   #25
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ok then tell it to sh Afif,
we dont bother, you brought his evidence actuelly, so you gotta mention it to him akhi al karim =)
are you telling me that you hanafis know the shafi method of usool better that a scholar from the shafi madhab
actuelly sh .afifi dare to mention hanafi ulamas statement, so better you ask the question to him.

at the end of the day, obviously you will not accept anything other than what sh.afifi said, so why wasting all people time. message is clear, let readers decide.

and people dont forget mufti husain saab´s chalenge if anyone wish to come up with chain .
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:15 PM   #26
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exactly, you presenting evidence. but what if we dont have the tools to take that evidence & make a ruling ourselves. we go to people like sh Afif. once again you said that those who kiss thumbs are wrong.
so in your opininon since the sh mentioned that there various ahadeeth although weak- is there any chance that Abu Bakr RA was a thumb kisser so is he also among the wrong dowers.

im not angry by the way. if shafi's going to a deoband institute dont know their own usool then I cant see a hanafi from a deoband institute to say that sh afif is wrong. its obvious that in his view its mustahab as in his article. now since berelwis do it does it make it completely wrong. tomorrow we will hear that its biday to wear a green turban.
You are going half-cocked again without reading what I am writing. This thread was started as a refutation against the Barelwis and you dragged in the Shafi'is. Our opinion is based on the Qur'an and Sunna and we stand on it regardless of how many Shafi's, Hanbalis and Malikis stand against it. WS.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:57 PM   #27
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we dont bother, you brought his evidence actuelly, so you gotta mention it to him akhi al karim =)

actuelly sh .afifi dare to mention hanafi ulamas statement, so better you ask the question to him.

at the end of the day, obviously you will not accept anything other than what sh.afifi said, so why wasting all people time. message is clear, let readers decide.

and people dont forget mufti husain saab´s chalenge if anyone wish to come up with chain .
if you read his article you would have seen that the questioner & him mentioned that its for the shafi madhab. so why was there a need to mention statements from the ahnaaf.

look I dont know if he is wrong or not even Im shafi, i dont know usool. but since you know the shafi Usool better that a shafi scholar you should be the one to refute.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:00 PM   #28
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You are going half-cocked again without reading what I am writing. This thread was started as a refutation against the Barelwis and you dragged in the Shafi'is. Our opinion is based on the Qur'an and Sunna and we stand on it regardless of how many Shafi's, Hanbalis and Malikis stand against it. WS.
then mention it as being your opinion. I could say that this is the view of some shafi's & didnt push it on any nonshafis. as if the rest of us dont stand by quran & sunnah.

so in your opininon since the sh mentioned that there various ahadeeth although weak- is there any chance that Abu Bakr RA was a thumb kisser so is he also among the wrong dowers. answer this then.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:17 PM   #29
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hey it was like 10 years back man. I was still in school


I wasnt judging you by any means brother. I was just seeing the funny side of this statement.

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Old 11-24-2010, 09:04 PM   #30
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I wasnt judging you by any means brother. I was just seeing the funny side of this statement.

may Allah protect us from all forms of showing off. may our intentions always be for Allahs pleasure alone. i still fall in similar traps now & again. like walkng into a masjid on friday & making sunnah whle it could be ishraaq. although its for the sake of Allah the thaught comes into mind that people are wathching & talking. & I sometimes get ready for confrontation. Allah forgive & protect us.
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:17 PM   #31
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then mention it as being your opinion. I could say that this is the view of some shafi's & didnt push it on any nonshafis. as if the rest of us dont stand by quran & sunnah.



answer this then.
1) You are looking for an argument in order to derail this thread.
2) No one is asking you to believe as us Deobandis do and no one is pushing his opinion on you. You dragged your Shaykh into this thread unnecessarily and started arguing about whether our opinion is right or not. So, the fact is that you are continuously trying to push your opinion on us.
3) Your beloved Shaykh mentioned half of what he should have mentioned and very cleverly left half of it hidden. Kindly go to Gibril Haddad's site and see the article where he is saying that this hadith is fabricated according to the Hadith scholars so we should drop the opinion of the Muhaddithin and take the opinion of the Fuqaha' in order to carry on this 'amal. That is why I said that you are going half-cocked, because you don't know in how many ways Bida'tis can fool you. So the end result is that NOTHING is proven from Abu Bakr(ra). If he had done it then we would have accepted it. But the proponents of this opinion have offered such a severely weak tradition that you cannot even ASSUME that the first Khalifa(ra) did it.
Wa salam.
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:31 PM   #32
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answer this then.
according to shafi muhaddith like ibn hajar(h) its clear that you cant take a weak chain statement being proven, why are you or sh.afifi busy to give the title abu bakr(rd) as a thumb kisser akhi al karim?
a FACT needs to be proven via sahih hadith, and was abu bakr(rd) thumb kisser? NO.

so when the FACT isnt proven, people can go insane with virtues, but should never claim abu bakr(Rd) did it.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:35 PM   #33
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@Saslams: You keep saying that it's "Ahnaf refuting Shawafi' using Hanafi usul", and so we would be doing something "unjust", but Abu_Tamim Sahab's message mention Shaykh Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani's (one of the biggest Shafi'i scholars of ever) conditions for the use of weak Ahadith; haven't you see it or are you just set in provocative anti-Deobandi anti-Indians modality?



From the Imams of Shafi'iyyah: Al-Allamah Sakhaawi (RA) quotes his own teacher Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar Asqalani (RA) in Al-Qawl-ul-Badi' about the conditions of acting on weak Hadeeth. These conditions are absent from the action under discussion even if we were to accept that the weakness in this narration is acceptable, the three conditions are as follows:

1. أن يكون الضعف غير شديد ، فيخرج من انفرد من الكذابين والمتهمين بالكذب ومن فحش غلطه.

2. أن يكون مندرجاً تحت أصل عام، فيخرج ما يخترع بحيث لا يكون له أصل أصلاً،

3.ألا يُعْتَقَدَ ثبوته عند العمل به ، لئلا ينسبَ إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ما لم يقله.


1) The weakness shouldn't be strong and excluded are narrations which contain narrators who are liars, or accused of lying or who commit a major error.

2) It should fall under a common principle and narrations are excluded which contain no real basis (for actions).

3) And it should not be believed that this action is proven from Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) so that the possibility of attributing something to Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) should be avoided.
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:56 AM   #34
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then mention it as being your opinion. I could say that this is the view of some shafi's & didnt push it on any nonshafis. as if the rest of us dont stand by quran & sunnah.



answer this then.
"In the book "al Maqasid al Hasanah Fil Hadisil Atwirah Alas Sunnah". Imam Sakhawi Radi ALLAHu Ta'ala Anho states, ذكره الديلمي في الفردوس من حديث أبي بكر الصديق أنه لما سمع قول المؤذن ( أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله ) قال هذا وقبل باطن الانملتين السبابتين ومسح عينيه فقال ( من فعل مثل ما فعل خليلي فقد حلت عليه شفاعتي ) ولا يصح
"Dailmi reports that Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique Radi ALLAHu Ta'ala Anho once said 'When I heard the Muazzin say Ash'hadu anna Muharnrnadar-Rasoolullah SallAllaho Alaihi wa Sallam, I said the same, kissed the inner-side of my Kalima finger and placed it on my eyes. When the Holy Prophet SallAllaho Alaihi wa Sallam noticed this, he said. My intercession becomes obligatory upon he who does the same as my beloved.' This Hadith hasn't reached the classification of Sahih." [al Maqasid al Hasanah, Hadit 1021, Dar al Kutb Ilmiyah (Berut - Lebenon), Page 384]"

Answer: Salam 'alaykum wr wb.
The Barelwi gives the above quotation from Maqaasid al Hasana.
As you can see the Arabic, Sakhawi's opinion is Wa La Yasihh.
The Barelwi translates it as "This Hadith hasn't reached the classification of Sahih".
This is gross misrepresentation. See what a Shafi'i called Gibril Haddad has to write about the use of La Yasihh in Hadith gradings and discussions:
"Similarly, al-Qari understands la yathbut to mean la asla lahu when it means la yasihh. In a fiqhi discussion la yathbut and la yasihh mean that the hadith falls short of the rank of sahih but in a hadithic discussion of forgeries such terms mean the hadith is forged.
He follows al-Zarkashi, Ibn 'Arraq, and others in their misunderstanding of the term “inauthentic” (la yasihh) to allow that a hadith is not necessarily forged whereas in discussions of forgeries and strictly hadithic, non-fiqh literature that term is strictly synonymous with “forged,” “baseless,” and other such descriptions used by the Masters in the books specifically devoted to forgeries as demonstrated by Abu Ghudda in his introduction to the Masnoo' and elsewhere.
In the entry, “Whoever circumambulates this House seven times, prays two rakas behind the Station of Ibrahim, and drinks Zamzam water, all his sins shall be forgiven as many as they may be” al-Qari cites al-Sakhawi's ruling of la yasihh, i.e. forged, but al-Qari goes on, Al-Sakhawi’s statement that the hadith is inauthentic does not preclude its being weak or fair unless he meant to convey that it is unestablished (la yathbutu). It seems al-Minnawfi understood the latter since he says, in his Mukhtasar [of al-Sakhawi's Maqasidd], “It is a falsehood (batil) without basis (la asla lahu).”
In reality both al-Sakhawi and al-Minnawfi are asserting the same thing, namely, that the hadith is forged[; but al-Qari follows two of his idiosyncrasies: first, he misunderstands al-Sakhawi’s statement to mean other than “forged”; second, he uses the terms “unestablished” and “without basis” indifferently.

In the light of the above discussion which shows what the masters of hadith actually mean regarding the work La Yasihh in hadith discussions, read the following fatwa by our scholars:

Nabi (S.A.W.) says, “The actual miser is he in whose presence my name is taken, yet he does not recite Salaat upon me.”
This Saheeh Hadith and many others of its nature teach us to send salutations upon our beloved Nabi (S.A.W.) when his name is taken.
Kissing the thumbs on hearing the name of Nabi (S.A.W.) is an outright innovation. All narrations in this regard are fabricated. (Fataawaa Rahimiyyah, Vol. 2, Page 303-304, Vol. 1, Page 58)

And Allah Ta’ala knows best

Ebrahim bin Zainul Abedeen Backus

Attested to as correct by: Mufti Muhammad Ashraf

Darul Iftaa, Jameah Mahmoodiyah, Springs.

Hope there is clarity to the issue now and Sayyiduna Abi Bakr is absolved of what he did not do.
Wasalam.

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Old 11-25-2010, 04:24 AM   #35
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So is kissin the thumbs going upon hearing Muhammad saw going to keep you awake all night shaking in fear?

What a waste of time? aint you got better things to do... Im not a scholar but you should seriously have a debate with dawat e islami lads
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:27 AM   #36
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So is kissin the thumbs going upon hearing Muhammad saw going to keep you awake all night shaking in fear?

What a waste of time? aint you got better things to do... Im not a scholar but you should seriously have a debate with dawat e islami lads
Relax. I'm having a debate with the Barelwis and they don't seem to have any answers on their own forums. Fighting Bida' is an important thing to do. Now go and play with the kids in the street.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:30 AM   #37
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Relax. I'm having a debate with the Barelwis and they don't seem to have any answers on their own forums. Fighting Bida' is an important thing to do. Now go and play with the kids in the street.
Brother, if somethin is based on a weak hadith or a hadith that doesnt get referred to much, does that make it bidah????
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:32 AM   #38
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Brother, if somethin is based on a weak hadith or a hadith that doesnt get referred to much, does that make it bidah????
Brother, why dont you read what I post before answering? Here read this and decide for yourself.


"In the book "al Maqasid al Hasanah Fil Hadisil Atwirah Alas Sunnah". Imam Sakhawi Radi ALLAHu Ta'ala Anho states, ذكره الديلمي في الفردوس من حديث أبي بكر الصديق أنه لما سمع قول المؤذن ( أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله ) قال هذا وقبل باطن الانملتين السبابتين ومسح عينيه فقال ( من فعل مثل ما فعل خليلي فقد حلت عليه شفاعتي ) ولا يصح
"Dailmi reports that Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique Radi ALLAHu Ta'ala Anho once said 'When I heard the Muazzin say Ash'hadu anna Muharnrnadar-Rasoolullah SallAllaho Alaihi wa Sallam, I said the same, kissed the inner-side of my Kalima finger and placed it on my eyes. When the Holy Prophet SallAllaho Alaihi wa Sallam noticed this, he said. My intercession becomes obligatory upon he who does the same as my beloved.' This Hadith hasn't reached the classification of Sahih." [al Maqasid al Hasanah, Hadit 1021, Dar al Kutb Ilmiyah (Berut - Lebenon), Page 384]"

Answer: Salam 'alaykum wr wb.
The Barelwi gives the above quotation from Maqaasid al Hasana.
As you can see the Arabic, Sakhawi's opinion is Wa La Yasihh.
The Barelwi translates it as "This Hadith hasn't reached the classification of Sahih".
This is gross misrepresentation. See what a Shafi'i called Gibril Haddad has to write about the use of La Yasihh in Hadith gradings and discussions:
"Similarly, al-Qari understands la yathbut to mean la asla lahu when it means la yasihh. In a fiqhi discussion la yathbut and la yasihh mean that the hadith falls short of the rank of sahih but in a hadithic discussion of forgeries such terms mean the hadith is forged.
He follows al-Zarkashi, Ibn 'Arraq, and others in their misunderstanding of the term “inauthentic” (la yasihh) to allow that a hadith is not necessarily forged whereas in discussions of forgeries and strictly hadithic, non-fiqh literature that term is strictly synonymous with “forged,” “baseless,” and other such descriptions used by the Masters in the books specifically devoted to forgeries as demonstrated by Abu Ghudda in his introduction to the Masnoo' and elsewhere.
In the entry, “Whoever circumambulates this House seven times, prays two rakas behind the Station of Ibrahim, and drinks Zamzam water, all his sins shall be forgiven as many as they may be” al-Qari cites al-Sakhawi's ruling of la yasihh, i.e. forged, but al-Qari goes on, Al-Sakhawi’s statement that the hadith is inauthentic does not preclude its being weak or fair unless he meant to convey that it is unestablished (la yathbutu). It seems al-Minnawfi understood the latter since he says, in his Mukhtasar [of al-Sakhawi's Maqasidd], “It is a falsehood (batil) without basis (la asla lahu).”
In reality both al-Sakhawi and al-Minnawfi are asserting the same thing, namely, that the hadith is forged[; but al-Qari follows two of his idiosyncrasies: first, he misunderstands al-Sakhawi’s statement to mean other than “forged”; second, he uses the terms “unestablished” and “without basis” indifferently.

In the light of the above discussion which shows what the masters of hadith actually mean regarding the work La Yasihh in hadith discussions, read the following fatwa by our scholars:

Nabi (S.A.W.) says, “The actual miser is he in whose presence my name is taken, yet he does not recite Salaat upon me.”
This Saheeh Hadith and many others of its nature teach us to send salutations upon our beloved Nabi (S.A.W.) when his name is taken.
Kissing the thumbs on hearing the name of Nabi (S.A.W.) is an outright innovation. All narrations in this regard are fabricated. (Fataawaa Rahimiyyah, Vol. 2, Page 303-304, Vol. 1, Page 58)

And Allah Ta’ala knows best

Ebrahim bin Zainul Abedeen Backus

Attested to as correct by: Mufti Muhammad Ashraf

Darul Iftaa, Jameah Mahmoodiyah, Springs.

Hope there is clarity to the issue now and Sayyiduna Abi Bakr is absolved of what he did not do.
Wasalam.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:45 AM   #39
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On what basis barelwi brothers add Radi-allahuanhu after the names of shaykh Gaus-ul-azam abdul kadir gilani, khwaja Moinuddin chisti ajmeri and beloved Ahmed raz khan.

I am told that this designation/laqab of " Radi... " is given to only sahaba.

Can we call Hazrat Khwaja Ajmer as Garib-Nawaz. What is the meaning of garib-nawaz?
Infact we can see stickers of "Ya Garib nawaz " on the vehicle.

Maulana Tahir Hussain Gayawi of Bihar had given classic and comprehensive reply to barelvi. If any brother is having is bayan then pls share it.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:49 AM   #40
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On what basis barelwi brothers add Radi-allahuanhu after the names of shaykh Gaus-ul-azam abdul kadir gilani, khwaja Moinuddin chisti ajmeri and beloved Ahmed raz khan.

I am told that this designation/laqab of " Radi... " is given to only sahaba.

Can we call Hazrat Khwaja Ajmer as Garib-Nawaz. What is the meaning of garib-nawaz?
Infact we can see stickers of "Ya Garib nawaz " on the vehicle.

Maulana Tahir Hussain Gayawi of Bihar had given classic and comprehensive reply to barelvi. If any brother is having is bayan then pls share it.
Radi Allahu anhu in a khabariyya sense is only for the Sahaba. In the dua'iyya sense it can be used for non-Sahaba also. It is common for Arabs to say Radi Allahu anka to one another.
However when names of Sahaba and those who come after them are taken together, then it is better to say it only for Sahaba so that people do not assume that some else is a Sahabi or as high ranked as a Sahabi. WS.
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