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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #21
MarlboroCig

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If your visiting Wahhabi sites, then your sure to read ssuch ridiculous protrayal. They consider majority of Sunnis themselves as "pagans" let alone shias.

Probably someone can provide some non-wahhabi book written by scholars with a civilized rational presentation of sunnism and its objections to shias.
I didn't know the Wahhabism considers Sunnis as pagans, so now there is ANOTHER SECT???? WHERE IS IMAM MAHDI AND CHRIST. This is where we need them the most.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #22
Rugda

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can you give me some more sects to explore? what are the Muslim brotherhood sect?
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #23
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can you give me some more sects to explore? what are the Muslim brotherhood sect?
Wahhabis are also called "Salafis" some of them are Sunnis some aren't. The Muslim Brotherhood aren't a sect.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #24
lkastonidwedsrer

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So the Sunnis really call Iranians pagan worshipers
If they hold some of the views promoted amongst the Ayatollahs, yes.

behind our backs? no they are very open about it.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #25
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Wahhabis are also called "Salafis" some of them are Sunnis some aren't. The Muslim Brotherhood aren't a sect.
Salam alaykum,


According to rafidis and rafidite sufis, follower of Deoband school and Tabligh Jamat are 'wahabis' as well.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #26
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but NOW the Sunni sec seems to have a very HEAVY Political Tone to it as well. Almost as bad as the Islamic republic of Iran politics
Sister do you think the Prophets (as) and their followers were not political? To have any moral or religious values at all is inherently political. However, some Muslims are less political than others.

If you want to find an approach to Islam that frees you from the tyranny of the Ayatollahs, whilst being tolerant of Shiahs and spiritually you may be interested in Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson. view Sandala.org or halal tube for his words.

also, do not mistake Sunni criticism of the excesses in Twelver Shi'ism (cursing the Sahaba, cursing those who don't repudiate the Sahaba, attributing powers that only belong to Allah to the twelve Imams etc) for Sunni hatred of layman Shiahs such as yourself.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #27
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So, I looked at these Websites, One is better than the other one. But is there a website that compares Sunni and Shia beliefs. Is there a website for Iranian Shias interested in learning more about Sunni Islam?
Salam Alaikum,

Come to this Iranian Sunni Forum (Farsi):

http://forum.kalemeh.tv/

P.S. I am also registered there.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #28
DarrenBent

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So the Sunnis really call Iranians pagan worshipers behind our backs? Is this a belief among the majority or minority?
What do you mean 'Iranian'. They mean Shia not Iranian because there are 15-20 million Iranian Sunnis also.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #29
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Sister do you think the Prophets (as) and their followers were not political? To have any moral or religious values at all is inherently political. However, some Muslims are less political than others.

If you want to find an approach to Islam that frees you from the tyranny of the Ayatollahs, whilst being tolerant of Shiahs and spiritually you may be interested in Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson. view Sandala.org or halal tube for his words.

also, do not mistake Sunni criticism of the excesses in Twelver Shi'ism (cursing the Sahaba, cursing those who don't repudiate the Sahaba, attributing powers that only belong to Allah to the twelve Imams etc) for Sunni hatred of layman Shiahs such as yourself.
True, listen to Hamza Yusuf.. or Sheik Hussien Nasr ( an Iranian scholar)..

Here are some links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pk1nPiAXAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60_H3...hannel&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai3vPxJwNUY
etc..
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #30
6M8PJigS

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IMPORTANT ONE...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKvY...eature=related
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #31
SkeniaInhilla

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Salam alaykum,


According to rafidis and rafidite sufis, follower of Deoband school and Tabligh Jamat are 'wahabis' as well.

According to them any Sunni they disagree with is a Wahhabi; it's not really important.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #32
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What do you mean 'Iranian'. They mean Shia not Iranian because there are 15-20 million Iranian Sunnis also.
Where did you get 15-20 million?? Too high, are they coming in from Pakistan or Afghanistan, or the Gulf countries?
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #33
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IMPORTANT ONE...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKvY...eature=related It just seems that Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is "all over the plate" so as to say- it would seem to be that he is speaking gently of "Shias" while also mentioned that the Ghulat and Rawafidh have been viewed quite negatively by our scholars.

The reason for this apparent contradiction is of course, is that when we talk today of "refuting Shias" we mean specifically the "Twelver Shia" tradition as it is taught and held by the Usooli Twelver scholars in their centers of learning in Qom, Najaf, etc.

But as anyone who knows more about the matter can say, this is a relatively recent phenomenon that came up in the past 200 years or so and is very much tied to the "absolute power" that the Shia "Ayatullahs" appropriated for themselves with respect to their followers.

But of course, one cannot ignore the presence of the Akhbari Twelvers, or the Ismailiyah, Zaydis, etc., or so many other groups which have traditionally come under the heading of "Shiah". This is why there is a lot of difficulty in making a "blanket Takfeer" of the Shia, since the linguistic and traditional definition of "Shia" in our Sunni books would normally not entail Takfeer, but at most would entail Bidah tendencies.

When we go into the definition of "Rawafidh" or "Ghulat" the judgments are more strict, but still it will be very hard to make any Sunni 'Aalim definitely identify the ideology of a whole nation with any label.

Rather what our 'Ulama will say is that (for example) if someone were to believe that any Wali of Allah is above any Prophet of Allah, then this is disbelief- without specifically mentioning that the Twelvers are holding onto disbelief, since it is possible that among the laymen and scholars of the Twelvers there are those who oppose such a belief.

In any case, it is better to make a separate thread in order to examine what is the relationship between (a) a belief that qualifies as Kufr (b) when the one who holds on to such a belief is a Kafir and (c) when can a group be labelled as holding on to such a belief or be labelled as Kuffar- since the 3 issues may not always completely overlap.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by AbuMuslimKhorasani
What do you mean 'Iranian'. They mean Shia not Iranian because there are 15-20 million Iranian Sunnis also. Where did you get 15-20 million?? Too high, are they coming in from Pakistan or Afghanistan, or the Gulf countries? I would like to remind those discussing in here that normally the Iranian Persian Shias are caught between two tensions:

One is their feeling of Persian superiority, and the other is that of Shia superiority. While one is actually religious, it is sometimes intertwined with the "Persian superiority" syndrome.

This is important, because generally the mindset of the Persians is to look down on others - whether Arabs, Pakistanis, the Turkish, etc. - and from this make an indirect analogy that since such Arabs, Turks, and Pakistanis are mostly Sunnis, then the Persians should be different from them in order to maintain their superiority. I know it sounds racist, but I believe this is what keeps not only Persians but most people the world over from embracing Islam properly - the feeling of "we do not want to hear anything from some wild Arabs coming from the barbaric ages, we are too superior and pure from that".

So just keep this in mind while discussing with any deviant or non-Muslim.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #35
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I would like to remind those discussing in here that normally the Iranian Persian Shias are caught between two tensions:

One is their feeling of Persian superiority, and the other is that of Shia superiority. While one is actually religious, it is sometimes intertwined with the "Persian superiority" syndrome.

This is important, because generally the mindset of the Persians is to look down on others - whether Arabs, Pakistanis, the Turkish, etc. - and from this make an indirect analogy that since such Arabs, Turks, and Pakistanis are mostly Sunnis, then the Persians should be different from them in order to maintain their superiority. I know it sounds racist, but I believe this is what keeps not only Persians but most people the world over from embracing Islam properly - the feeling of "we do not want to hear anything from some wild Arabs coming from the barbaric ages, we are too superior and pure from that".

So just keep this in mind while discussing with any deviant or non-Muslim.
Hmmmm... This all sounds nice and stuff, but NOT really true. There is no such thing as Persian race. It was a civilization 2500 years ago. Doesn't exist anymore. WE call it Iran. Do the Romans exist anymore? no . Anyway... there are racist people in every race, BUT I can assure you I'm NOT A RACIST. MY best friend is from Afghanistan, and she told me there are many Sunni Muslims that love to come to Iran and we welcome them as well. I hate your generalization about all Iranians. VERY NARROW MINDED. I'm genuienlt suprised there are 15-20 million Sunni in iran, I thought the Number was alot lower. Can you back up this claim? I'm jus worried about a civil war, you know like Iraq or Syria and Turkey.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #36
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It just seems that Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is "all over the plate" so as to say- it would seem to be that he is speaking gently of "Shias" while also mentioned that the Ghulat and Rawafidh have been viewed quite negatively by our scholars.

The reason for this apparent contradiction is of course, is that when we talk today of "refuting Shias" we mean specifically the "Twelver Shia" tradition as it is taught and held by the Usooli Twelver scholars in their centers of learning in Qom, Najaf, etc.

But as anyone who knows more about the matter can say, this is a relatively recent phenomenon that came up in the past 200 years or so and is very much tied to the "absolute power" that the Shia "Ayatullahs" appropriated for themselves with respect to their followers.

But of course, one cannot ignore the presence of the Akhbari Twelvers, or the Ismailiyah, Zaydis, etc., or so many other groups which have traditionally come under the heading of "Shiah". This is why there is a lot of difficulty in making a "blanket Takfeer" of the Shia, since the linguistic and traditional definition of "Shia" in our Sunni books would normally not entail Takfeer, but at most would entail Bidah tendencies.

When we go into the definition of "Rawafidh" or "Ghulat" the judgments are more strict, but still it will be very hard to make any Sunni 'Aalim definitely identify the ideology of a whole nation with any label.

Rather what our 'Ulama will say is that (for example) if someone were to believe that any Wali of Allah is above any Prophet of Allah, then this is disbelief- without specifically mentioning that the Twelvers are holding onto disbelief, since it is possible that among the laymen and scholars of the Twelvers there are those who oppose such a belief.

In any case, it is better to make a separate thread in order to examine what is the relationship between (a) a belief that qualifies as Kufr (b) when the one who holds on to such a belief is a Kafir and (c) when can a group be labelled as holding on to such a belief or be labelled as Kuffar- since the 3 issues may not always completely overlap.
Do you consider Sufism , Kafir?
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #37
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Do you consider Sufism , Kafir?
Sufism is Tasawwuf, the Islamic science of the purification of the nafs. It's not a sect.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #38
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Do you consider Sufism , Kafir? No I do not conisder Sufism as Kufr. Besides, true Tassawuf does not claim to bring an Aqeedah which is anything different to that of the Ahl us Sunnah. All the sciences of Islam whether external or internal are judged according to the proper Aqeedah. Now, our problems with Twelver Shiaism is due to deep problems with Aqeedah, not even (generally) due to Fiqhi differences, which i think is being ignored in the discussions the members are having with yourself.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #39
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Hmmmm... This all sounds nice and stuff, but NOT really true. There is no such thing as Persian race. It was a civilization 2500 years ago. Doesn't exist anymore. WE call it Iran. Do the Romans exist anymore? no . Anyway... there are racist people in every race, BUT I can assure you I'm NOT A RACIST. MY best friend is from Afghanistan, and she told me there are many Sunni Muslims that love to come to Iran and we welcome them as well. I hate your generalization about all Iranians. VERY NARROW MINDED. I'm genuienlt suprised there are 15-20 million Sunni in iran, I thought the Number was alot lower. Can you back up this claim? I'm jus worried about a civil war, you know like Iraq or Syria and Turkey. It is not a matter of concern (for me at least) if there 15 miilion, 20 million, or more or less in Iran, since I believe haggling over the condition of a certain people in a certain country does not lead to a discussion concerning the real problem we see within a given religion.

Concerning the "Persian race" issue, it is simply a personal observation since I have noticed that the matter of Persianism is often mixed up with Shiaism in the eyes of the Iranian Shias I have seen. This is why a number of them might "cry" about the Arab Muslim conquest of Persia during the reign of Umar (Radhia Allahu Anhu), even though it is part of the Islamic belief that those lands who refuse to submit to the Islamic polity are to be attacked and subdued. Besides, the Prophet (SAW) cursed the king of Persia and his kingdom, so there was no way they could flee from this subjugation.

This is not the case with every Iranian Shia, but for those who do mention it in such a manner, we do have to see what their intentions behind such statements really are, since it could be a sort of outright denial of Islam as such. We also know that there are people of all nationalities, including Arabs, who deny Islam for all sorts of reasons (including racial reasons), so this is not something restricted to Iranians at all.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #40
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Where did you get 15-20 million?? Too high, are they coming in from Pakistan or Afghanistan, or the Gulf countries?
Salam Alaikum,

Check this:

The Sunni areas in Iran
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