[Lt_Apple]

While I'm not an expert on the subject, I think it is important that we lay some of the groundwork for why the Middle East is as messed up as it is. Let me start out by saying that by doing so it does not mean I am excusing the Arabs' behavior and responsibility for the mess they are in as well. I think we can all agree that not expecting anything from Arabs as if they are not thinking people or people who have no control of their actions is an inherently racist attitude. I think we can also agree that many people who claim to support the Arabs do in fact share that attitude, which is one of the reasons they do not like to hold them accountable for any of their actions or misfortunes.

I think most people also know that the French have committed some of the most atrocious acts of oppression on the Arabs of the Middle East. We also know the French have committed genocide against Jews, Native Americans, Algerians and Africans, however this thread is specifically only about their crimes in the Middle East.

I welcome experts on the subject to discuss in detail France's role in the disaster that we know as the Middle East. I plan to do some research myself and post articles from reputable sources. I think this will add much to our understanding of the Middle East and I think this will be a great learning experience as well as an eye opener for many people.

[Slonopotam845]

BS.
About jews, the most part of the jews in France were escaped or hidden. In fact there was as much persons deported from France because they were jew as the persons deported for varoious "resistance" acts.

What a very foolish (dumb?) way to express yourself !!!

The French were the first in Europe to start harassing Jews (as early as October 1940, many French thinking of to the good, old anti-Semitic days of their parents and grand parents around the Dreyfus farce). The Vichy Nazi-collaborating French government passed anti-Jewish measures, limiting their professional activities, access to public places, and forbidding their free movement. The French were the first to create a special anti-Jewish Brigade, le Commissariat General aux Questions Juives, working closely with the German Gestapo. The result: in 2 years time, and with the help of French police, and very cooperating citizens, almost 80,000 Jews were deported to concentration camps, of which only 2,500 survived the Holocaust. Twenty-five percent of the French Jewish population of 300,000 was murdered during the Holocaust.

But.....somewhere you are correct mathematically: "only" 25% of French Jews didn't survive the Holocaust.....a minority, right?!?

[brraverishhh]

I do believe the Lady said the Middle East is to be the topic of discussion.

[Lt_Apple]

I was referring to the both of you, there's no favourites here.

[Lt_Apple]

Not altogether on topic but related nonetheless...

A 1961 Massacre of Algerians in Paris When the Media Failed the Test

by James J. Napoli

A colleague of mine in Cairo told me a story a few years ago about a massacre in the streets of Paris.

He was a news service reporter at the time of the violence in the French capital —Oct. 17, 1961—and saw tens of bodies of dead Algerians piled like cordwood in the center of the city in the wake of what would now be called a police riot.

But his superiors at the news agency stopped him from telling the full story then, and most of the world paid little attention to the thin news coverage that the massacre did receive. Even now, the events of that time are not widely known and many people, like myself, had never heard of them at all.

This year is an apt time to recall what happened, and not only because this is the 35th anniversary year of Algerian independence. The continuing civil war in Algeria and the growing violence and racism in France, as well as the appalling slaughters taking place elsewhere in the world, give it a disturbing currency.

Here’s what happened:

Unarmed Algerian Muslims demonstrating in central Paris against a discriminatory curfew were beaten, shot, garotted and even drowned by police and special troops. Thousands were rounded up and taken to detention centers around the city and the prefecture of police, where there were more beatings and killings.

How many died? No one seems to know for sure, even now. Probably around 200.

It seems astonishing today, from this perspective, that such a thing could happen in the middle of a major Western capital closely covered by the international media. This was not Kabul, Beijing, Hebron or some Bosnian backwater, after all, but the City of Light—Paris.

But the Fifth Republic under President Charles de Gaulle was in trouble in October 1961. De Gaulle, who was primarily interested in establishing France’s pre-eminent position in Western Europe and the world, found himself presiding over domestic chaos. France was constantly disrupted by strikes and protests by farmers and workers, as well as by terrorism from opposing organizations: the Front de Libération Nationale (FLN), representing the Algerian nationalist independence movement, and the Organisation Armée Secrète (OAS), a group of disaffected soldiers, politicians and others committed to keeping Algeria French. The OAS rightly perceived that de Gaulle was bound to free France from the burden of its last major colonial holding, so he could get on with the business of making France the economic and political power of his lofty ambition.

Eyewitness reports recounted stranglings by police.

But the vicious war in Algeria, marked by bloody atrocities committed on all sides, had been grinding on for nearly seven years. Terrorist attacks in Paris and other French cities had claimed dozens of lives of police, provoking what Interior Minister Roger Frey called la juste colère—the just anger—of the police. They vented that anger on the evening of Oct. 17. About 30,000 Muslims—from among some 200,000 Algerians, ostensibly French citizens, living in and around Paris—descended upon the boulevards of central Paris from three different directions. The demonstration of men, women and children was called by the FLN to protest an 8:30 p.m. curfew imposed only on Muslims.

The demonstrators were met by about 7,000 police and members of special Republican Security companies, armed with heavy truncheons or guns. They let loose on the demonstrators in, among other places, Saint Germain-des-Prés, the Opéra, the Place de la Concorde, the Champs Elysée, around the Place de l’Ätoile and, on the edges of the city, at the Rond Point de la Defense beyond Neuilly.

My news agency friend counted at least 30 corpses of demonstrators in several piles outside his office near the city center, into which he had pulled some Algerians to get them away from rampaging police. Another correspondent reported seeing police backing unarmed Algerians into corners on sidestreets and clubbing them at will. Later eyewitness reports recounted stranglings by police and the drowning of Algerians in the Seine, from which bodies would be recovered downstream for weeks to come.

Thousands of Algerians were rounded up and brought to detention centers, where the violence against them continued. “Drowning by Bullets,” a British TV documentary aired about four years ago, alleges that scores of Algerians were murdered in full view of police brass in the courtyard of the central police headquarters. The prefect of police was Maurice Papon, who recently was still denying charges that he was responsible for deporting French Jews to Auschwitz during World War II while he was part of the Vichy government.

The Official Version

The full horror of this inglorious 1961 episode in French history was largely covered up at the time. Though harrowing personal accounts did eventually percolate to the surface in the French press, the newspapers—enfeebled by years of government censorship and control—for the most part stuck with official figures that only two and, later, five people had died in the demonstration. Government-owned French TV showed Algerians being shipped out of France after the demonstration, but showed none of the police violence.

Journalists had been warned away from coverage of the demonstration and were not allowed near the detention centers.

With few exceptions, the British and American press stuck to the official story, including suggestions that the Algerians had opened fire first. Even the newsman who saw the piles of Algerian corpses was not allowed to report the story; his bosses ordered that the bureau reports stick to the official figures.

Both French and foreign journalists in Paris seemed tacitly to agree that nothing should be done to further destabilize the French government or endanger de Gaulle, who was widely seen as the last, best hope for navigating France out of its troubles.

The story quickly died, drowned out by fresher alarums and excursions in Europe and elsewhere. And, of course, in the next year, Algeria would have its independence.

Jacques Vergès, the controversial French lawyer who represented the FLN during the war in Algeria, told me in an interview last summer that the police violence and government and press cover-up in 1961 were not surprising. The political circumstances were right for it, and the news media usually do what they’re told.

Just look at how easy it was to round up and intern American citizens of Japanese descent after Pearl Harbor, he observed.

If he’s right, then the problem for politicians is to make sure that the conditions for injustice and atrocity do not conjoin, that there is no probability created for massacres like the one in Paris in October 1961. And if the politicians fail, then the problem for journalists and others is how to resist becoming their accomplices.

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...97/9703036.htm

[Beerinkol]

BS.

French didn't genocide jews (germans) or native americans (US or brits), in both those cases french people were somewhat allied with those victims againts theire butchers. In america, the deep ties between french and natives (french lived with the natives when brits just killed them) caused them to be genocided and deported as well as the natives by brits and later by US.
About jews, the most part of the jews in France were escaped or hidden. In fact there was as much persons deported from France because they were jew as the persons deported for varoious "resistance" acts.
About africans, a long history including the slavery that is a crime but not a genocide.
About Algeria, a long and bloody civil war including a lot of massacres from the both sides that the most terrible was the Sétif one, several thousand dead by a bloody french repression, but no genocide. In fact, for Algeria, the nearly to be a genocide was the slaughter of several tens of thousands (maybe 200.000) former algerian-french soldiers and theyre famillies after the withdrawal of french forces.

Before to call for "expert", just have a bit of homework to do.

Ps: Then, if it is "well known" that french genocided ME arabs, please enlight us because apart from the creation of Libanon because of the slaughters of christians by syrians in 1941, I don't see...

I think France's active participation in the genocide of 80,000 Jews during WW2 is widely documented. So is their genocide of 1.5 million Algerians. You cannot simply dismiss those killings and colonization as a civil war. I'm also surprised you don't know much about their role in the genocide of Native Americas. How many N.A. live in Quebec today? Here in America we are taught in school how we did commit a genocide against the N.A. and you will not hear any American on here deny that. Perhaps if the French were taught about their past crimes against humanity in more detail, they wouldn't be pointing the finger at others so much and realize that they, too, are very responsible for the mess we are in today. For example, today there are a lot of problems today between Lebanon and Syria which are a direct result of France's occupation. I plan to post a lot of articles on this history in the coming days.

As Kenneth correctly pointed out (thank you Kenneth) this thread is specifically about France and their crimes and occupation of the Middle East. Before telling people to do their homework you should re-read my post and not make up things that I wrote. I never said the French committed genocide against Arabs. I speficially said they were responsible for severe atrocities and crimes. Are you denying that? Now let's get specific on what you know on those topics since you are such an expert.

[Slonopotam845]

The Algerian Rebellion was not Genocide. Calling it Genocide is as stupid as it is innacurate for the following reasons.

1. Islamic Terrorists use the myth of an Algerian Genocide as a staple of their propaganda. Recognizing the enemies claim on Algeria is as idiotic as lets say conceding a "Palestinian Genocide".

2. It feeds Islamic propganda

3. It confirms an image of the evil west and the noble guiltless and forever superior Islamic World

4. The revolt of the French North African Colonies did not involve a genocide, claiming it did demeans the word as surely as genocide denial does.

So my conclusion is cut the France hating, or you should at least tackle an issue France is wrong about of which there are plenty, just do not confirm Terrorist propganda in order to fuel reasons to hate France.

I disagree. Is Algeria considered an Islamofascist nation like Iran? When more than one Algerian President has fully accused France of genocide, I don't think we can brush that off as Islamic terrorist propaganda. Here is some information:

Overview

The polemic was started the 17 April 2006 by the Algerian president Abdelaziz Bouteflika who said in a speech in Paris on that "Colonisation brought the genocide of our identity, of our history, of our language, of our traditions".[6].

....

Some Algerian intellectuals argue that the number of genocide against the Algerian people is not one but many.

....

However France has never accepted its responsibility in tortures and massacres in Algeria. Paris says that the past should be left to historians. French President Jacques Chirac, upon harsh reactions to the law encouraging the good sides of the French colonial history, made the statement, "Writing history is the job of the historians, not of the laws." According to Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, "speaking about the past or writing history is not the job of the parliament."[8]


History

Algeria first became a colony of France in 1830. When in 1945 the Algerian people rioted against the French colonial rule, the French dispatched 400,000 troops to pacify the anti-colonial uprising.[9][10] The French colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to the anti-French riots. The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead. European historians estimate the number of deaths between 15,000 and 20,000. In his speech, President Bouteflika also urged the Paris Government to admit its part in this massacre[11].

Ahmed Ben Bella, the first President of Algeria, also argues that the French committed a genocide against the people and Algerian culture: "Algeria's indigenous population was decimated in the early years of French settler colonial rule, falling from over four million in 1830 to less than 2.5 million by 1890. Systematic genocide was coupled with the brutal suppression of Algerian cultural identity. Indigenous Algerians were French subjects, but could only become French citizens if they renounced Islam and Arab culture.[12]
http://www.answers.com/topic/accusat...inst-algerians

*************************************************
Now, we can argue this until we're blue in the face. I view the above as a genocide, but I suppose you only view them as colonization and/or massacres. Either way, they were crimes of epic proportion which France has never admitted to. But AGAIN this post is only supposed to be discussing France's crimes in the Middle East and their effect today. If you or anyone else wants to debate France's role in the Holocaust or in Algeria please start up another thread.

[Fegasderty]

As Kenneth correctly pointed out (thank you Kenneth) this thread is specifically about France and their crimes and occupation of the Middle East. Before telling people to do their homework you should re-read my post and not make up things that I wrote. I never said the French committed genocide against Arabs. I speficially said they were responsible for severe atrocities and crimes. Are you denying that? Now let's get specific on what you know on those topics since you are such an expert.

Kenneth pointed nothing out.

This thread has a tittle and an introductive text where is writed my quote.
Then, re-read your own post (try to understand what you wrote in a whole) and do your homeworks.

Merry Christmas.