[MontyP@thon]

Norwegian:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/os...k-6735045.html

English:

http://translate.google.com/translat...5.html&act=url

I am ashamed to see people treating victims of rape in such a bad manner, it really makes my blood boil, i mean these women are victims of a crime that was not their fault to begin with, so why should they become target for harassment? are these people somehow feeling offended that she was raped? i dont get it, it really makes me dumbfounded how people can behave that badly, are we no better then that?

[Gypejeva]

People in Canada seem to have a messed up attitude towards rape. Many times girls, too.

They'll ask things like "what was she wearing?" or "was she drunk?", and just generally make it out to be her fault. They'll still get support. In my community, though, if you rape a girl, you'll get beaten senseless by all the guys in the community.

[Agrisalia]

People in Canada seem to have a messed up attitude towards rape. Many times girls, too.

They'll ask things like "what was she wearing?" or "was she drunk?", and just generally make it out to be her fault. They'll still get support. In my community, though, if you rape a girl, you'll get beaten senseless by all the guys in the community.

With respect, I believe those questions, while insensitive to ask, are sometimes appropriate questions to ask . Crimes rarely occur in a vacuum and to take umbrage because someone queried why a certain crime happened to a certain person is to bury your head in the sand. Suppose you were burgled, would you object to the police asking about the security precautions you had taken, and those you had not taken? Victims may hold some blame for crimes.

This attitude that people who accuse others of sex crimes are a delicate species and beyond reproach has pervaded the justice system in my country, and on my continent, to such an extent that, by virtue of an EU edict, it is rarely allowed for a defence barrister, in a sex crime trial, to raise the question of the purported victim's sexual past. Of course rape is a horrible crime and those who commit it deserve to go away for many, many years but that does not mean that those accused of the crime should have their rights as innocent people limited.

It really is political correctness gone mad.

P.S. Are these revenge attacks common? People will often, especially on the internet, talk about revenge and the like but the threats rarely seems to materialise. Hundreds of murderers walk out of prison every year and very, very few are ever the subject of a revenge attack- which leads me to believe most victims and victims' families are bitter, fair enough, and full of shit.

[emily]

most get sympathy, but you still have some who think that a person "deserves it" if she is skimpily dressed or drunk etc. which i find ridiculous. though i agree that someone is more likely to target a provocative dressed women as opposed to a nun (unless they have some kind of fetish) because that victim is more likely to catch ones eye it DOESN'T make it right. there is no excuse for raping someone, and lord knows we have all seen many women dressed in a very sexy manner but none of us are so uncontrollable that we pounce on every women we see wearing a miniskirt or who smiles in our direction. people should not have to deny themselves the right to wear what they want in fear that it might possibly attract a sexual deviant. the blame rests on the perpetrator in this case, not the victim IMO. he or she is the one at fault here, not the victim.

[boltondd]

http://translate.google.com/translat...075873&act=url

The Muslim community in Norway is facing major challenges.
Chronicle

By Ellen Reiss, the author

The last few days, Louiza Louhibi focused attention on how some religious (read Muslim) extremists harassed other Muslims and former Muslims. The extreme conflict outreach elements represent fortunately an exception, for Louhibi has also received massive support from prominent Muslim Tina Shagufta Kornmo, Mohamed Abdishazan and Abid Raja. Yet is also broader Muslim communities face challenges: Many young Muslim women live in a reality with little freedom, little room for critical discussion and little diversity.

Gender, not people
The last six months has stormed around the organization Islam Net. One reason is their strict practice of gender segregation. Such segregation is common in religious events. In all the mosques in Norway is segregation for granted the petition. But it does not happen only here. For example, says some women I interviewed for the book report Sisters, which comes out today, that they are not comfortable with being close to the boys. Islamic Cultural Center on Grøndel handing out pamphlets that say that women should wear the hijab for its own sake. In order not to arouse men's desire. It is also about power: Boys and men feel that they have a greater right to free speech than women, and in some cases they can decide upon them.

Love a threat
This also has implications for how relationships and marriage are formed. Especially in the Pakistani mijøet it is customary to speak of love as a threat. Marriage should be entered into in conjunction with the family. Culture is often justified on the basis of religion, which makes it particularly difficult to break the pattern. If you choose love in spite of the family's wishes, there is a risk that the family breaks contact with one. Divorce in some communities will be difficult, but a woman I interviewed told me: "It is worse to enter into love marriages than divorce."

Social control
Fear of "assimilation" or "Western" behavior, is also an everyday reality for many people I have met in the work book. There may be fear of a decadent and sexually hilarious life with alcohol and partying. There may be resistance to an individualism that says that girls and boys will be in charge of their lives even without all the others to believe something the whole tiden.Eller there may be resistance to a feminism which establishes the right of women to promote their own opinions and choose regardless of cultural norms about gender.
Everything is part of a larger problem: social control. There are cultural differences, but in some Muslim milo emphasis is often strong constraints on social behavior, to whom one should be reviewed, and when and where to go. The women have the least leeway. Boys also meets strict gender roles, but they have freer rein.

Homosexuality
Although such control due to lack of culture, the religion would like to legitimize some of the control. Again, it becomes harder to resist. Switch Mon norms, it can have serious consequences. Women at risk of rumor spreading in the environment, isolation from family and friends, harassment and ultimately vold.Ytterpunktet is homosexuality. Homosexual orientation, especially if you practice their sexuality, are still not accepted in Norway and sanctioned very hard. There is a persistent focus on the issue in the media, not least from Sara Azmeh Rasmussen and Amal Aden. But the discussion in the media like to be on an ethical basis, not a religious one. Muslims should take a broad real debate on the religious arguments for and against homosexuality.

Small ytringsrom
The conclusion is that young Muslim women have too little ytringsrom. The narrow room is not only liberal women, but also conservative Muslims. In conversations with Muslims I often hear how important it is that the laundry is not aired. The culture puts a lid on things that are controversial. Over the years it has happened, and it happens, a trend of improvement. But women still have too few opportunities to express critical in Muslim communities.
Several of the women I've spoken with has an active desire to change things. They do not do it by open confrontation, but by giving shit norms and behave in their own ways. There are a number of small rebellion in which they become examples for others.

Positive change
A lot is actually changing for the positive. But what happens when more or less discreet action, rarely in open confrontation, because the resistance of solid and sanctions more severe. "Noisy" women Amal Aden and Sara Azmeh Rasmussen is not considered as part of the environment and therefore has little legitimacy, so they are easily dismissed. Some of ukult trip I have described, justified in Islam, but fortunately a lot of work to change the understanding of what religion stands for. Also, more young people put themselves into Islam, read the sources critically and take back their religion and their right to self-understanding and expression. Fortunately there are many who, in a small way, fighting for their freedom. And Louiza Louhibi may no longer Muslim, but very brave and a role model for all free men.


A chronicle about the first article:

http://translate.google.com/translat...E9hNko&act=url

There is hardly a clearer picture of what a number of Muslim girls have to contend with.

Louiza Louhibi is a brave young woman. She was recently published in Aftenposten and talked about the persecution she suffered after she was presented as a rape victim. Among other things she could read online that she deserved to be raped because she was un-Islamic, then it has followed the new threats. After all the bad Louhibi have experienced, her demeanor is anything but a victim-like. It could be seen when she NRK TV debate Thursday asked Islam Nets frontman Fahad Qureshi to the wall with the question: "Do you want me to lead a dialogue with those who want to have raped and killed afterwards?"

Louhibi pointed to something important in the debate, that the recruitment of like-minded users happens through social media. In the new report book Sisters. How young Muslim creates his own freedom, it comes out a different side of the Internet's impact on girls from a Muslim background. Through online discussions, they have easier access to high to have an opinion about the society around them.

The girls in the book reflects on the interpretation tyranny among the scholars and the predominance of men in the Arab communities. Critical reveals the paradoxes in the encounter between Islam and Norwegian gender norms. One of those places, for example the question "Where in the Muslim world today is practiced the equality that exists in Islam?" The answer is that it only happens in Norway.

It is striking how ambitious the interviewees are, and how through knowledge and education to fight for themselves. The book's author, Ellen Reiss, therefore seems a little too pessimistic in the feature article "Young Muslim women should be silent," which was printed in VG this week. Here she interprets the narrow concept of freedom on behalf of his interviewees, but the book seems most of them strong and independent within their own borders.

Meanwhile, Reiss a point when she points out that women's oppression comes disguised as religion. That's why the games are in online forums with names like Islam Net and islam.no. In a striking collective search for identity have sought Muslim youth together to debate how the orthodox should live. In such venues the girls can demand respect through knowledge. But one of the girls in the book says that she was banned by Islam Net to mean something other than the majority. Islam is Net should immediately realize that they have everything to gain from an open and inclusive debate.

On the web can be met with harsh words, words. In a TV debate, one might be part away. Fahad Qureshi laughed without NRK presenter struck at point no. Unfortunately. Right now there are many indications that the Muslim girls raise their voices in the fight to be respected as something more than representatives of a religion, a family or a minority. And when they need all the support they can get.

[CibQueersejer]

Sometimes though the woman is at fault. For example, dressing in very open manner and being flirty, or drinking too much in such a state, and some rape charges can be very vague.

[Emapymosy]

Sometimes though the woman is at fault. For example, dressing in very open manner and being flirty, or drinking too much in such a state, and some rape charges can be very vague.

Actually, unless she agrees to sex i dont see how rape can ever be the victims fault, flirting does not mean she is looking for sex ect...

[qikolax]

It's just another world view.

One of the things that Christianity brought to Europe was the separation of act and guilt

1) Unforeseeable fatality (accidents) = no guilt
2) Imprudence = less guilt
3) Voluntary illegal act = total guilt



Other cultures say that an act is always wrong, and that circumstances are always irrelevant.

[xquFzpNw]

Actually, unless she agrees to sex i dont see how rape can ever be the victims fault, flirting does not mean she is looking for sex ect...

Well, just to play Devil's advocate for a moment here, what does it mean?

[RussellPG]

It's just another world view.

One of the things that Christianity brought to Europe was the separation of act and guilt

1) Unforeseeable fatality (accidents) = no guilt
2) Imprudence = less guilt
3) Voluntary illegal act = total guilt



Other cultures say that an act is always wrong, and that circumstances are always irrelevant.

i dont know about that, but iknow that in a religious world view some acts are often attributed to a person as having a bad relationship with the deity in question ect..

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 21:18 ----------

Well, just to play Devil's advocate for a moment here, what does it mean?

It could mean a number of things:

- Fun.
- Checking to see if other people find you attractive (boosting your selfasteam).
- figuring out what kind of person you are (some women are not looking for players and so will reject you if you dont show self control).

ect ect..

[lXwVlTgO]

Sometimes though the woman is at fault.

For example, dressing in very open manner and being flirty, or drinking too much in such a state

I disagree, I think that a woman's attitude to sex, anyone's attitude for that matter, is binary; either they wish to have sex with you, or they don't. So, it's not as though the woman hasn't made up her mind and the man should take the initiative and rape her and expect her to say, "Thanks" the next morning.

and some rape charges can be very vague.

Agreed. It is scary how easily an allegation of rape can be made, I would like to think that they have to provide more evidence than just their word against the accused man's word in order to have a trial but I wonder whether they always do?

Rape is an evil crime, it is more so because it can be difficult to prove, but that does not mean society should reduce the amount of evidence sufficient to bring about a conviction, it is sad that bad people will get away with it but that is much better than innocent people being punished.

[BalaGire]

People in Canada seem to have a messed up attitude towards rape. Many times girls, too.

They'll ask things like "what was she wearing?" or "was she drunk?", and just generally make it out to be her fault. They'll still get support. In my community, though, if you rape a girl, you'll get beaten senseless by all the guys in the community.

that doesn't happen in canada, I dont know what are you talking about

but one thing I noticed is, Canada does have a really high rape rate. The blame is on what happens in clubs here, where people get so drunk that they dont even know what they are doing any more, many of them sleep with strangers and that often can result in rape

[DumbNelmcrece]

It could mean a number of things:

- Fun.
- Checking to see if other people find you attractive (boosting your selfasteam).
- figuring out what kind of person you are (some women are not looking for players and so will reject you if you dont show self control).

ect ect..

Fair enough, all of those are ways to get known as a cunt though.

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 20:24 ----------

that doesn't happen in canada, I dont know what are you talking about

but one thing I noticed is, Canada does have a really high rape rate. The blame is on what happens in clubs here, where people get so drunk that they dont even know what they are doing any more, many of them sleep with strangers and that often can result in rape

If she was that drunk how can she be a reliable witness, and how can she prove that she didn't say, "Yes"? Unless there are signs of a struggle it is his word against hers, i.e. no case to answer. "You raped me", "No, I didn't, you said yes, prove otherwise", end of.

[spamkillerf]

Actually, unless she agrees to sex i dont see how rape can ever be the victims fault, flirting does not mean she is looking for sex ect...

Then what is she looking for? Should society protect this behavior?

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 21:52 ----------

It could mean a number of things:

- Fun.
- Checking to see if other people find you attractive (boosting your selfasteam).
- figuring out what kind of person you are (some women are not looking for players and so will reject you if you dont show self control).

ect ect..

All right, why should society protect this kind of behavior?

[spapsinee]

Then what is she looking for? Should society protect this behavior?

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 21:52 ----------



All right, why should society protect this kind of behavior?

Why not?

[inownsuipsy]

Why not?

Because it creates strong incentives for false rape accusations:

While the Compensation Scheme is designed to cover crimes of violence, an exception is made for non-forcible rape and other sexual crimes not involving violence. Payments are made for mental injury, including “temporary mental anxiety,” suffered by non-consenting victims of sexual offenses. (Criminal Injuries Compensation (2008) ¶9.) Under the compensation scheme, non-consensual penile penetration warrants UK £11,000. (Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme (2008) Page 34.) Greater sums are allotted depending on the severity of the injury inflicted. A non-penetrative sexual physical act “over the clothing” warrants UK £1000. (Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme (2008) Page 34.) This, presumably, includes a single instance of inappropriate touching.

In the UK during 2008-2009, 1,938 payments were made to "victims" of rape for a total of £30,197,619. See here: http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Ste...ing_1FINAL.pdf For example: I meet you at a dance club and invite you to dance with me. I grind my ass towards you on the dance floor and give you the impression that you can put your hands there. When you do so, I cry assault/sexual harassment, and I just made £1000. And you stand there as a dumbass saying the typical "but she wanted to".

If I take it further and take you home from the club, I don't have to do anything, we can drink tea and discuss the weather for an hour, the next day I go to the police and say that you raped me. According to this article, I just made £11,000 on one hour of tea drinking. If you get prosecuted, which you will if I can tell a decent story, I'll offer you to settle out of court for £20,000 or you go to prison for rape.

Even if you get acquitted in court, I get to keep the payout, and you get nothing:

The UK does not compensate men who were falsely accused of rape, no matter how terrible their victimization. To verify this, I previously wrote to the CICA and asked if a false rape claim would be covered, noting that such claims often have the effect of mentally (not to mention financially) destroying the falsely accused. We received a prompt and professional response that included the following:

"Under the terms of our scheme unfortunately this would not be covered. Under the terms of our scheme for eligibility, applicants need to be the victim of a violent crime."

It is important to underscore the terrible double-standard here: the victim of a single instance of a sexual act over the clothing is entitled to compensation, but a man falsely accused of rape who is arrested and jailed for weeks, months or even years, who is subjected to untold mental agonies, who loses his friends, the esteem of his community, his job, his business, and his good name, is entitled to nothing. http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...1_archive.html

Now consider that there will be a lot of young women losing their jobs this year. They have bills to pay and they've been around the block a few times. They really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Does this still seem like a good idea to you?

[favwebbb]

Because it creates strong incentives for false rape accusations:



For example: I meet you at a dance club and invite you to dance with me. I grind my ass towards you on the dance floor and give you the impression that you can put your hands there. When you do so, I cry assault/sexual harassment, and I just made £1000. And you stand there as a dumbass saying the typical "but she wanted to".

If I take it further and take you home from the club, I don't have to do anything, we can drink tea and discuss the weather for an hour, the next day I go to the police and say that you raped me. According to this article, I just made £11,000 on one hour of tea drinking.

According to the article maybe, but a solicitor who deals with a lot of cases involving the Criminal Injuries Compensation people told me that getting any money is like getting blood out of a stone. I think you would, in practice, need a conviction to get a pay-out. He said the firm makes a lot more money suing on behalf of 'whiplash victims' Easy gig, up to £8,000 for a couple of hours on the phone, and you can keep maybe a grand or so. I fear that gravy train may have departed by the time I become a lawyer, should I do so.

I don't think it would be worth it for the hassle, and isn't the £11,000 the maximum figure, not a guaranteed sum?

If you get prosecuted, which you will if I can tell a decent story, I'll offer you to settle out of court for £20,000 or you go to prison for rape.

That would be highly illegal and you would be going down for perverting the course of justice if you made such an offer, meanwhile all of your credibility as a witness would have been destroyed and the rape trial would inevitably collapse.

Even if you get acquitted in court, I get to keep the payout, and you get nothing:



http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...1_archive.html

Now consider that there will be a lot of young women losing their jobs this year. They have bills to pay and they've been around the block a few times. They really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Maybe so, but rape charges seem to stick, the cops will assume the woman has been intimidated or is embarrassed if she changes her story, now perhaps a rape case can't survive without it's key witness, but that doesn't mean the police will give up easily. I suspect they would treat any attempt to change your story as a sign you were either intimidated into doing so or your story was a pack of lies from the word go.

[Thigmaswams]

Blaming women because of what they wear is ridiculous, if that was a good argument then there would be a massive amount of rape in nudist resorts.

[sam]

According to the article maybe, but a solicitor who deals with a lot of cases involving the Criminal Injuries Compensation people told me that getting any money is like getting blood out of a stone. I think you would, in practice, need a conviction to get a pay-out. He said the firm makes a lot more money suing on behalf of 'whiplash victims' Easy gig, up to £8,000 for a couple of hours on the phone, and you can keep maybe a grand or so. I fear that gravy train may have departed by the time I become a lawyer, should I do so.

I don't think it would be worth it for the hassle, and isn't the £11,000 the maximum figure, not a guaranteed sum?

I have two objections:

1) She will most likely get money out of her insurance, if she has one.

2) For a woman with no job, or that is in need of money for some other reason, it's worth the hassle.

That would be highly illegal and you would be going down for perverting the course of justice if you made such an offer, meanwhile all of your credibility as a witness would have been destroyed and the rape trial would inevitably collapse.

1) Right now women who admit to filing false reports are not prosecuted, unless they do it several times. I doubt any prosecutor wants to go after a "rape victim".

2) It's not an admission of wrongdoing on your (the victim's) part. You just didn't want to go through the "torment" of a trial.

3) If you go through a third party, you can deny, and still keep some (most?) of your credibility in court.

Maybe so, but rape charges seem to stick, the cops will assume the woman has been intimidated or is embarrassed if she changes her story, now perhaps a rape case can't survive without it's key witness, but that doesn't mean the police will give up easily. I suspect they would treat any attempt to change your story as a sign you were either intimidated into doing so or your story was a pack of lies from the word go.

Yeah, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to recant, I agree with that. But for £10,000 it might be worth a try.

---------- Post added 2012-01-22 at 01:54 ----------

Blaming women because of what they wear is ridiculous, if that was a good argument then there would be a massive amount of rape in nudist resorts.

Um, there's a reason to why nobody gets raped at a nudist resort.

[Uttephabeta]

I have two objections:

1) She will most likely get money out of her insurance, if she has one.

What insurance, rape cover?

2) For a woman with no job, or that is in need of money for some other reason, it's worth the hassle.

Maybe so.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...-women-to.html

3) I don't know about whiplash, but traffic-related cases will probably be good earners in the future. See DUI cases in America.

Here car insurance premiums are ridiculous, especially for young male drivers (£6,000 a year for a 1.0 litre car sometimes ), and it is largely because of spurious personal injury claims. Someone has a 5mph fender bender and suddenly instead of there being two occupants of the 'victim car' there were five and they all suffered so terribly that they need £6,000 each Lawyers make some good money from it but it is a sorry state of affairs.

If you have an accident your details are sold to personal injury, no-win-no-fee lawyers and you are bombarded with calls about making a claim.

People think Americans are bad for personal injury lawsuits, well they probably are but you should still see some of the whinging bastards over here.

1) Right now women who admit to filing false reports are not prosecuted, unless they do it several times. I doubt any prosecutor wants to go after a "rape victim".

Abroad maybe, but here they are generally prosecuted. It is deemed a high priority area for the CPS.

2) It's not an admission of wrongdoing on your (the victim's) part. You just didn't want to go through the "torment" of a trial.

That may work, but you would not be getting paid £20,000 to say that, you would be getting paid £20,000 to say that your memory cleared and it was actually a big nigger who raped you, to put the original accused firmly in the clear.

3) If you go through a third party, you can deny, and still keep some (most?) of your credibility in court.

? Maybe, but then your third party would be going to jail, why would they not implicate you? Unless, of course, you paid them to keep their mouth shut Bribery is a rich man's game and some stupid cunt making false rape claims for a few grand is not rich enough to play it.

Yeah, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to recant, I agree with that. But for £10,000 it might be worth a try.[COLOR="Silver"

Maybe, if you are amoral, poor and stupid. If you get caught you will spend time in prison and you will also face the brickbats of the tabloid press, scorned as an evil woman by the entire country, all for £10 grand?