[engideNedmupe]

So I saw a thought provoking film recentlly called Disgarace and it was about a women who is raped in South Africa and than refuses to report it (out of what I could may mistake as "white guilt"). SPOILER: she ends up getting pregnant with the possibility of marrying a teenage perpetrator, and giving part of her families land to her neighbors (the family of the boy). It is based on the novel of the same name by J. M. Coetzee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_(novel)

I decided to make a serious thread on the subject, with no racist overtones (as I became witness to in the others I've seen), since I consider this to be a serious issue with no room for that racist garbage.

What seemed clear to me, from the bit of the film I saw, is there is a deep cultural origin of this phenomena of rape in South Africa, and the possession of women. If you are unfamiliar with the topic, please read this before responding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...n_South_Africa

I have read about a few instances in historical civilizations where men had kidnapped women from enemies and taken them as wife's. I'm sure we're all familiar with the rape and pillage that accompanies war. But what's the South African situation? I believe it may predate European colonization but I have no hard evidence, so I admit my ignorance on the subject. The movie brought up a topic I found interesting, about stealing another mans women, as a form of gratification. Useful intelligent response is appreciated.

[Uzezqelj]

There are/or where similar cultural traditions like this not just in Africa, where they kidnap a women and take her as his bride or sexual partner. Many countries in central Asia like Uzbekistan, in the Caucasus such as Georgia, Azerbaijan, Degestan, in China as well and in Europe in the ancient Slavic tribes, and the middle ages in southern Italy and Sicily as well (The custom of fuitina was widespread in Sicily and southern Italy. In theory and in some cases it was an agreed elopment between two youngsters; in practice it was often a forcible kidnapping and rape, followed by a so-called "rehabilitating marriage" (matrimonio riparatore). .

[HassFks]

I'm not sure what the topic is here. But I think that you need to distinguish actual rape and... "rape". Actual rape would be the kind that you would run and report immediately. If you're not reporting it, then you were simply in on it and should stop spoiling it for women who actually do get raped for real.

[Lenny Hensley]

There are/or where similar cultural traditions like this not just in Africa, where they kidnap a women and take her as his bride or sexual partner. Many countries in central Asia like Uzbekistan, in the Caucasus such as Georgia, Azerbaijan, Degestan, in China as well and in Europe in the ancient Slavic tribes, and the middle ages in southern Italy and Sicily as well (The custom of fuitina was widespread in Sicily and southern Italy. In theory and in some cases it was an agreed elopment between two youngsters; in practice it was often a forcible kidnapping and rape, followed by a so-called "rehabilitating marriage" (matrimonio riparatore). .

Interesting, possibly some relation with the "Rape of the Sabine Women" in Rome, this was actually what i was thinking about when I said kidnapped and forced marriage. You think the tradition is similar in old South Africa?

---------- Post added 2010-11-11 at 13:44 ----------

I'm not sure what the topic is here. But I think that you need to distinguish actual rape and... "rape". Actual rape would be the kind that you would run and report immediately. If you're not reporting it, then you were simply in on it and should stop spoiling it for women who actually do get raped for real.

Care to elaborate? What kind of "rape" would you not report? The rape I'm discussing is when someone is forced to have sex against their will.

The topic here is the origin of the rape traditions in South Africa (often practiced by youths as what seems to be a game), and of bride kidnapping found in other cultures, cause I feel they may be related processes.

[cafeviahe]

I'm not sure if this phenomena is only restricted to South Africa. I remember I read somewhere that in Big Brother Africa one of the guys at the house had supposedly raped another member. He was the most voted and hence, the winner.

[TOOGUEITEME]

Care to elaborate? What kind of "rape" would you not report? The rape I'm discussing is when someone is forced to have sex against their will.

The topic here is the origin of the rape traditions in South Africa (often practiced by youths as what seems to be a game), and of bride kidnapping found in other cultures, cause I feel they may be related processes.

It's all about where you put the critical point. Usually it is placed at the time when the woman clearly expresses that she does not wish to have sex. This of course, has all sorts of bizarre consequences. For example, if the woman is engaged in intercourse and then tells the man to stop, how fast does he have to pull out for it not to be rape? This construction does not fit with reality. Instead, I place the critical point further back along the timeline, to where the woman enters into a sexually charged situation, at that point she can be said to consent to sexual actions being directed towards her. At this point, she cannot be raped, since she has already consented - with the exception of obviously disproportionate behavior, which is what I would call genuine rape.

Here is my take on the tradition part: cultures that practice bride abduction are patriarchal. Central Asians are the standard example. Blacks are matriarchal, so bride abduction simply doesn't make sense. Why would you kidnap the matriarch? What I think happens is that the men socialize and bond in the sexual act, and the woman receives sexual gratification. I fail to see how any actual rape is involved.

[heennaRaf]

It's all about where you put the critical point. Usually it is placed at the time when the woman clearly expresses that she does not wish to have sex. This of course, has all sorts of bizarre consequences. For example, if the woman is engaged in intercourse and then tells the man to stop, how fast does he have to pull out for it not to be rape? This construction does not fit with reality. Instead, I place the critical point further back along the timeline, to where the woman enters into a sexually charged situation, at that point she can be said to consent to sexual actions being directed towards her. At this point, she cannot be raped, since she has already consented - with the exception of obviously disproportionate behavior, which is what I would call genuine rape.

Here is my take on the tradition part: cultures that practice bride abduction are patriarchal. Central Asians are the standard example. Blacks are matriarchal, so bride abduction simply doesn't make sense. Why would you kidnap the matriarch? What I think happens is that the men socialize and bond in the sexual act, and the woman receives sexual gratification. I fail to see how any actual rape is involved.

You fail to see where rape is involved in South Africa or bride abduction? I don't think all African society is matriarchal. From the film I saw, South Africa seemed patriarchal. I also think Muslim dominated nations are also patriarchal, or I would assume it was so.

I consider it rape when a man "forces entry", I'm not talking about when the sex already begins and the man just wont stop. In the case of the film, the women was rapped by a group of young boys, and she knew who the culprit was, but never reported it. Instead she choose to have her baby, and the boys family (her neighbors) offered to marry him off to her, for protection (this sort of thing is fairly common in South Africa). I believe their is some cultural origin, maybe regarding domination or possession of women.

[Phighicle]

You fail to see where rape is involved in South Africa or bride abduction? I don't think all African society is matriarchal. From the film I saw, South Africa seemed patriarchal. I also think Muslim dominated nations are also patriarchal, or I would assume it was so.

I consider it rape when a man "forces entry", I'm not talking about when the sex already begins and the man just wont stop. In the case of the film, the women was rapped by a group of young boys, and she knew who the culprit was, but never reported it. Instead she choose to have her baby, and the boys family (her neighbors) offered to marry him off to her, for protection (this sort of thing is fairly common in South Africa). I believe their is some cultural origin, maybe regarding domination or possession of women.

I don't know of any black groups that are patriarchal. It's possible that Muslim Blacks are, I dunno.

You are assuming that the purpose of sex is to dominate. Not just to "have fun" or as an "activity that you do together". Therefore, this isn't about domination or possession, it's simply pack fucking. It's an activity that groups of young men do to socialize, show off and in a very abstract sense "worship the matriarch". The woman might or might not be in on it, but that is nevertheless the point of black pack fucking. They might be hating on the woman, it might go as far as being an act of aggression - but never domination/possession of the female sex.

[BariGrootrego]

I don't know of any black groups that are patriarchal. It's possible that Muslim Blacks are, I dunno...

I think you're overgeneralizing too much. All African groups were matriarchal (this included Berbers, who regarded noblewomen of the tribe as mothers/caretakers of the camp). As far as I know though, the advent of Abrahamic religions have severely diminished the role of women in African societies.

So today, most urbanized Africans are indeed patriarchal, regardless of ethnic affiliation (considering that the majority of Africans practice either a form of Islam or Christianity).

[SarkisPioute]

I don't know of any black groups that are patriarchal. It's possible that Muslim Blacks are, I dunno.

You are assuming that the purpose of sex is to dominate. Not just to "have fun" or as an "activity that you do together". Therefore, this isn't about domination or possession, it's simply pack fucking. It's an activity that groups of young men do to socialize, show off and in a very abstract sense "worship the matriarch". The woman might or might not be in on it, but that is nevertheless the point of black pack fucking. They might be hating on the woman, it might go as far as being an act of aggression - but never domination/possession of the female sex.

I'm not assuming that at all about sex (who do you think I am?), even though I know some men enjoy aspects of domination in sex. What I'm assuming is that there may be cultural relevance to these rapes, since it seems so common there. You think it is to show an abstract sense of worship to matriarch? That's interesting, never thought of it that way, but I think I can understand how that would be the case. Bizarre way to socialize in my opinion, and somewhat cruel. The women in the film brought up the idea of domination, I never thought out it cause I had no idea. I doubt that all those women could be in on it though.

---------- Post added 2010-11-11 at 18:27 ----------

I think you're overgeneralizing too much. All African groups were matriarchal (this included Berbers, who regarded noblewomen of the tribe as mothers/caretakers of the camp). As far as I know though, the advent of Abrahamic religions have severely diminished the role of women in African societies.

So today, most urbanized Africans are indeed patriarchal, regardless of ethnic affiliation (considering that the majority of Africans practice either a form of Islam or Christianity).

Really, I didn't know that every African group was originally Matriarchal, but that would explain the matriarchal culture of Blak Americans. I can say that at least in my fathers urbanized New york family (Brooklyn), matriarchy is still a costume, though my grand father came here from Florida originally, of course Blaks are naturally going to be different than the African peoples, an ocean of separation.

[Wahwlsnt]

Interesting, possibly some relation with the "Rape of the Sabine Women" in Rome, this was actually what i was thinking about when I said kidnapped and forced marriage. You think the tradition is similar in old South Africa?

Yes it has to have some similarities to the ones in old South Africa, just less artistically depicted in modern day as the Roman version and offcourse neither of both have never influenced one another since they are so part afar culturally and geographically, but in human nature it has being proven that it can replicate itself in different parts of the world.