[MannoFr]

Ayyayo Maddy, i didn't try to reinforce the hub mantra of adding IMO to your posts. All posts are obviously IOO.
I was just nitpicking on your description. I have already told you my craze for 'fanaa' and my fights with DJs and sundry over this song.
Rahman-fusion isaiya pathi kuraiva sollala, just added some context...

illa - all i meant was ur points regarding defining one's taste as per own feelings instead of a collective feeling pathhi dhaan ingu sonnen......i didnt relate this to ur comment on manmohini

yes, my description was a bit misleading - manmohini yen classic-nnu naa innum nalla solli irukkalaam to borrow terms from hub periyavaas - the juxtaposition of hindustani vocals, synth riffs, with trance was heavenly which made it special

[tgs]

Sudhir - avaLO thAn kELviyA? - nInga romba nallavar

[tgs]

Sudhir - avaLO thAn kELviyA?

yes.....i could have avoided some sarcasm

[Lt_Apple]

So its not surprising for you to have met those 51 guys. Doesn't mean that there is some mysterious factor capable of converting ARR fan into a IR fan :P ... ellaa one off case nu dismiss pannidalaam :P

Thamizh,
I think you are also missing a small section in the diaspora. The surface level listener who doesn't have more than a passing interest in the intricacies or details. While vociferously declaring themselves fans of ARR/rAjA they may be unable to articulate why. IMO these are the people who are most likely to vacillate. Also I would like to add that rose-tinted nostalgia glasses have very little to do with me liking rAjA.

[PhillipHer]

I could linger over the same topic for long, aana oru digression ku idhey too much :P Sorry Compli

ingEyum adhE - en saarpilum - Sorry Deepauk


P.S: Roshan, my signature is a Groucho marx quote NallA irukku - like that 'problem with work..' signature mAthiri

[Ifroham4]

Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan So its not surprising for you to have met those 51 guys. Doesn't mean that there is some mysterious factor capable of converting ARR fan into a IR fan :P ... ellaa one off case nu dismiss pannidalaam :P

Thamizh,
I think you are also missing a small section in the diaspora. The surface level listener who doesn't have more than a passing interest in the intricacies or details. While vociferously declaring themselves fans of ARR/rAjA they may be unable to articulate why. IMO these are the people who are most likely to vacillate. Also I would like to add that rose-tinted nostalgia glasses have very little to do with me liking rAjA. vociferously - kuruttuththanamaa sariya

articulate - express

vacillate - fluctuate - aatthula oru kaalu sEththula oru kaal

Deepauk, purinja maadhiri irukku puriyaadha maadhiri irukku purinjum puriyaamalumirukku puriyaamalum purinjirukku purinjadhu yEn puriyaamalE irukkunu theriyala puriyaadhadhu yEn purinja maadhiri irukkunu theriyala

[Beerinkol]

Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan So its not surprising for you to have met those 51 guys. Doesn't mean that there is some mysterious factor capable of converting ARR fan into a IR fan :P ... ellaa one off case nu dismiss pannidalaam :P

Thamizh,
I think you are also missing a small section in the diaspora. The surface level listener who doesn't have more than a passing interest in the intricacies or details. While vociferously declaring themselves fans of ARR/rAjA they may be unable to articulate why. IMO these are the people who are most likely to vacillate. Yup, you are right. Those who get into such intricacies will note that the taste element in ARR's music belongs to a different dimension compared to IR's music(not totally orthogonal, but still not comparable). My preference stems from the fact that ARR covers more dimensions of my musical appreciation than IR does.

Music doesn't begin and end with either IR or ARR, one should understand that. One advantage with ARR is that he is still open, and probable to expand his scope in various musical directions, whereas IR has already defined his borders IMHO.

But I am not sure about your second point. One need not be able to articulate why something appeals to them. Can a mother articulate why she feels affection towards her child? One can still describe his taste in words, but that won't be complete neither would it describe exactly how he is moved by that particular piece of art.

[Beerinkol]

Originally Posted by crajkumar_be Originally Posted by Roshan Adhu kAlathin kattAyam enRu ninaikkiREn. IR 90s'la vanthirunthA acoustic music, live recording ellAm paNNi iruppArA enbathu periya kELvi.

Roshan,
Even Srikanth Deva CAN do acoustic work. adhukkAga compli (or any IR fan) ku avar favorite aiduvaara?

Sorry for answering out of turn, IR-enbadhaal badhil seyya munaindhen Bala, my response was to the bolded line of Depauk's response. Naan acoustic work thappunnu solla varala - but synth oru kuRRam enRu solla vanthathu thappunnu sonnEn. And he was making that comparison for a question related to ARR and not any tom, dick or harry. Adhaan koncham tension AyittEn. avarE ellOrum ARR aagi vida mudiyumAnnu appuRam solRaar. Hope you understood. illEnna vitturunga :P Roshan,
[Just wanted to add these points. I did read your previous post. This is also in response to TV's post]
Neenga acoustic-a kutram nu sonnadha naan sollala. Your post implied that IR *happened* to use acoustic and live music as he was a product of his times (like anyone else).
My point is that, (even at the risk of me sounding like speaking for compli again) while we have our preference as to what kind of music we love the most (though that may not be the only music we love), it all boils down to how a composer does whatever he is doing, acoustic or otherwise. What's the output.
It should be noted here that IR has also ventured into synth (with pleasing results) in the 80s itself.
I differ from compli in that i don't necessarily always prefer acoustic over others. For instance, i love the sound of electric guitar. So, even in that sense, Raaja has not been entirely acoustic (even while not using synth). He has sizzled with his electric guitar.
For compli, it may so happen that the acoustic aspect is what he prefers the most.

Well, there exists an irritating preconception among IR fans that those who prefer ARR over IR have not completely "understood" the depth of IR's music. While there is no doubt of IR's genius and brilliance of his songs, there exists a league who do appreciate IR's music for all that it has to offer, but yet prefer ARR's output.

Irukkathaanga seyyum, just like there are many Rahman fans for whom contemporary popular music is the only "western" music

Music doesn't begin and end with either IR or ARR, one should understand that. One advantage with ARR is that he is still open, and probable to expand his scope in various musical directions, whereas IR has already defined his borders IMHO.

IR vs ARR!
That can be Ilaiyaraaja's advantage over Rahman! Rooted in context and reaching depths where there connection between the artist and the listener doesn't get any closer than this! How about it?
You want Ilaiyaraaja to do a hip-hop meets bhangra meets blue grass to "prove" (NOW) that he has expanded boundaries? What has he been doing all this while? And you get offended when some IR fan tells you you haven't explored his repertoire fully! What is his age and what is Rahman's?

Mumbai Express (at this age)? And Thiruvasagam does not count in the list of "expanding borders" just because it is 'local'? Or does it always have to be pan-Indian or contemporary western music?

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

vociferously - kuruttuththanamaa sariya
articulate - express
vacillate - fluctuate - aatthula oru kaalu sEththula oru kaal

vociferously - aaravaaramaaga, vacillate - nilaiyAna karuththillAmal

Deepauk, purinja maadhiri irukku puriyaadha maadhiri irukku purinjum puriyaamalumirukku puriyaamalum purinjirukku purinjadhu yEn puriyaamalE irukkunu theriyala puriyaadhadhu yEn purinja maadhiri irukkunu theriyala

En pEra vechchE purinjukka mAttIngaLA?

Music doesn't begin and end with either IR or ARR, one should understand that. One advantage with ARR is that he is still open, and probable to expand his scope in various musical directions, whereas IR has already defined his borders IMHO.

But I am not sure about your second point. One need not be able to articulate why something appeals to them. Can a mother articulate why she feels affection towards her child? One can still describe his taste in words, but that won't be complete neither would it describe exactly how he is moved by that particular piece of art.

What I meant by a lack of articulation is something that stems from the lack of understanding ones own "implicit connections" I referred to earlier. It is understanding oneself rather than the art.
And I am not sure about IR having set his borders (either in space or time). But anyway already digressed quite a bit.
Bala makes a very valid point about rAjA's rootedness. And it is not the rootedness to milieu - I mean the rootedness to the origins of why music was created.

[LottiFurmann]

I think you are also missing a small section in the diaspora. The surface level listener who doesn't have more than a passing interest in the intricacies or details. While vociferously declaring themselves fans of ARR/rAjA they may be unable to articulate why. IMO these are the people who are most likely to vacillate.

For Sale ! Bids accepted from either party.

I would like to add that rose-tinted nostalgia glasses have very little to do with me liking rAjA.

Nowadays, I am not able to convince myself that my preferences arch beyond the nostalgic element. But when talking to folks like Compli, I feel that I am able to sacrilege without compuction as above, only because my ear is quite untrained to the nuances of music (I just busted getting a good bid from one side).

[tgs]

He has sizzled with his electric guitar.
For compli, it may so happen that the acoustic aspect is what he prefers the most.

Another valid point - case in point muththAduthE muththAduthE vAnam from thanga magan. Very very catchy. However it does not hold to me the connection of rAththiryil pUththirukkum from the same album.

PR - nInga vithivilakku. You listened most intently as I thrust my araivEkkAdu theories on you.

[softy54534]

A last point

Film music is primarily not about whether the MD uses jazz, rock, carnatic for a particular scene or a song. It is firstly about how the music/song evokes the feel of the situation and facilitates the maker-audience relationship. Genre is important, no doubt, but it is more as a test of craft and is always with the objective of achieving the primary

[Paul Bunyan]

IR vs ARR!
That can be Ilaiyaraaja's advantage over Rahman! Rooted in context and reaching depths where there connection between the artist and the listener doesn't get any closer than this! How about it?

lol.. but CR , I dont get what you are saying here :P
You want Ilaiyaraaja to do a hip-hop meets bhangra meets blue grass to "prove" (NOW) that he has expanded boundaries? What has he been doing all this while? And you get offended when some IR fan tells you you haven't explored his repertoire fully! What is his age and what is Rahman's? No, I don't want him to do anything. Why are we getting this question of proving something It is just a matter of what we can expect from person A compared to person B. My contention is that person A is more likely and open to be diverse than person B.

Listen to by Enya. It might put a musicologist to sleep, not much details to ponder over, no elaborate passages of composing virtuosity.. yet the song can make the listener feel like he is floating two feet above the ground. The question is, will raja attempt something like this. He might be able to do it even in his sleep, but will he?

Now something you can relate to much better . Listen to . Now tell me honestly, do you expect IR to fool around with such a montage of sounds and make music out of it. ARR is renowned for making music out of sounds . Would you dare to say it is not music? Is it not an aspect of music that is missing from Person B? :P

It is a question of what he is willing to do and what he is not, and also how he does it. Please don't think that I underestimate the extent to which IR explored various genres. I never suggested that he didnt try jazz or blues, but music is a wide ocean without any shores and still there are aspects of it untouched. In IR's case the exploration is no longer happening and to that extent I look forward to a ARR song with more expectation than IR song. I would never dare to say ARR > IR, just that my like for ARR > my like for IR .

Hope it solves the case

[Slonopotam845]

A last point

Film music is primarily not about whether the MD uses jazz, rock, carnatic for a particular scene or a song. It is firstly about how the music/song evokes the feel of the situation and facilitates the maker-audience relationship. Genre is important, no doubt, but it is more as a test of craft and is always with the objective of achieving the primary

True.. my primary is listening satisfaction. I don't have patience for films, leave alone noticing the finer aspects of it

[NeroASERCH]

Now tell me honestly, do you expect IR to fool around with such a montage of sounds and make music out of it. ARR is renowned for making music out of sounds .

You're asking this of a man who slapped his thigh with just the right intonation to create the sound of batasandals hitting tar road to keep beat for an entire song???? The man who knows how to use baselines to give the entire song a "wet" feel??? Seriously thamizh, one must delve before makinggross generalizations.

[Fegasderty]

Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan Now tell me honestly, do you expect IR to fool around with such a montage of sounds and make music out of it. ARR is renowned for making music out of sounds .

You're asking this of a man who slapped his thigh with just the right intonation to create the sound of batasandals hitting tar road to keep beat for an entire song???? The man who knows how to use baselines to give the entire song a "wet" feel??? Seriously thamizh, one must delve before makinggross generalizations. Hmmm.. I wasn't trying to generalize there . But sorry, we are talking about different things here. I still maintain that what I expect is not Raja's forte or his type of music.

Btwn, could you please explain that sandal tidbit more. Never heard of it.. which song is it?

[tgs]

Originally Posted by crajkumar_be IR vs ARR!
That can be Ilaiyaraaja's advantage over Rahman! Rooted in context and reaching depths where there connection between the artist and the listener doesn't get any closer than this! How about it?

lol.. but CR , I dont get what you are saying here :P
TV,
Let me give an example.

1. "yArO yArO dI"
2. SOK "Ambasaudram" song
I felt both these songs were out of place (i think they are very good as 'songs' per se). And no wonder yAro di fit like a glove when the film was remade in Hindi.
This is what i meant when i said IR songs are rooted.

On the other side, just popped off my mind right now. Guna - "unnai naan ariven". Check out the transformations the song goes through and the visuals and the setting.

Rooted in context - milieu (not always), genre/style as required by the situation.
Regarding the connection bit, its all the more subjective though. Song ku enna emotion venum? adha *perfect*-a kudukkardhula ivara minja yaaru? Note the emphasis on rootedness and connection.

The point i'm trying to make here is depending on whose fan you are, you can turn this argument either way.
e.g. A N.Indian can "relate to" (yuck, i hate this phrase! is there a better way of expressing the same meaning?) many of Rahman's Thamizh songs. The pan Indian feel and sound is his advantage.


As for the rest of your post, i simply don't get it. I have a blanket question Why?

No, I don't want him to do anything. Why are we getting this question of proving something It is just a matter of what we can expect from person A compared to person B. My contention is that person A is more likely and open to be diverse than person B.

You didn't say that. You said Person B has stopped expanding his boudnaries
[And 'expanding boundaries' is something which we differ on]

Listen to by Enya. It might put a musicologist to sleep, not much details to ponder over, no elaborate passages of composing virtuosity.. yet the song can make the listener feel like he is floating two feet above the ground. The question is, will raja attempt something like this. He might be able to do it even in his sleep, but will he?

Well, WHY should he? I mean i can cite an arbit song and ask "Will Rahman do something like this"? What's the point?

Now something you can relate to much better . Listen to . Now tell me honestly, do you expect IR to fool around with such a montage of sounds and make music out of it. ARR is renowned for making music out of sounds . Would you dare to say it is not music? Is it not an aspect of music that is missing from Person B? :P

So, the issue is making music out of 'sounds'? (Adding to compli's examples)
"Paruvame Pudhiya Paadal Paadu" [apart from the footsteps, one can die fot the ludes]
"Punjai Undu Nanjai Undu" (starts off with the sounds of axe cutting wood)
"Paakku Vethala" (Prelude)
"Saandhu Pottu" (Silambatha suthumbothu varra 'woosh')
"Nothing But Wind" (Forgot the track name. Cacophony - iyer odhufying slokams, trains, birds chirping etc etc and some synth sounds)
....
...
Again, what's the point?

It is a question of what he is willing to do and what he is not, and also how he does it. Please don't think that I underestimate the extent to which IR explored various genres. I never suggested that he didnt try jazz or blues, but music is a wide ocean without any shores and still there are aspects of it untouched. In IR's case the exploration is no longer happening and to that extent I look forward to a ARR song with more expectation than IR song. I would never dare to say ARR > IR, just that my like for ARR > my like for IR .

Hope it solves the case

1. Like i've mentioned, if you think Mumbai Express and Thiruvasagam are not "exploarations" enough i have nothing much to say
2. Like i said you are comparing Rahman exploring midway in his career and IR at the fag end of his career. Not fair
3. Even if one concedes that Rahman's exploration score is > IR's we go back to the first point in my reply and my earlier post

[softy54534]

I'm sure you've heard it thamizh - paruvamE puthiya pAdal pAdu - nenjaththai kiLLAthE. That was an impulsive post - Was just that I essentially feel rAjA has a very good grasp of sound and that is what makes him who he is to me. The generalization was with respect to your insinuation that rAjA has not used alternative sounds.
Bala has mentioned some very notable examples as well and said accurately that we are comparing artiste's who are currently in different stages of their ouvre'.

[LottiFurmann]

Compli mentioned bass:
Show me one composer in the world who revolutionized the purpose and usage of bass guitar and bass lines? He redefined an instrument!

And note that i haven't even started on BGM. That's a no contest anyway

[Drugmachine]

thalaivar is a pioneer in experiment and making music out of sound - late h.sridhar himself acknowledged that..........he used to retain screeching sounds due to rust in instruments to create a new sound

yes, when people want him to compose symphony, acoustic, natural instruments, orchestra, rock type songs only - they get disappointed..........indha complaints pala murai kettachu,