In general, I've found that the judges will shout 'yame' the moment the kenshi starts to go down. (Unlike the japanese comps, where they seem to get a few seconds).
In ji-geiko, I'm too concerned about the health of my opponent to attack. Ji-geiko is not about winning http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif

Jakob

Shiai or not, it's against my principle. Unless my life is in danger, I won't hit a person on the floor.

Center

How would one go about securing a point off an opponenet that has fallen? I guess, assume they have fallen backwards onto their butt:

I see that men is the target, but zanshin...?

If someone goes down, you should percieve the suki and attack immediatly. If you are closing the distance and they are on the ground when you strike, attack. While you are closing the distance and you sense they are hurt, you should hold back. If you slipped during a sword fight, you would be trying to protect yourself, so why not in kendo. THis is not, as someone suggested, a trying to win or loose situation, it is a situation of siezing the opportunity at any time a suki is apparent. Shimpan are supposed to give you a few seconds when this happens, and not stop the match immediatly. Otherwise, when do you stop the match....when they start to go down...what if they recover?
I think we can take advantage of the Suki without what we consider "Bad Western Sportsmanship". Why don't we consider it bad sportsmanship when the bozo can't stay on his feet?

I think we have a hard time letting go of certain "Western" ideas of what is a fair fight.
Example: In 1994 at the Kitamoto camp, Toda sensei was playing against a European, Toda sensei was doing Nito, and was being quite surgical in his attacks. He kept backing the European up with his kamai. Pretty soon, a lot of us were standing around watching, and Toda sensei kept backing this guy up. He finally backed him up to the observers. WHile most of us got out of the way so Toda sensei could maneuver him to the wall, one of the Australian guys pushed the European kenshi forward really hard, destroying the match. When a couple of us called him on this, he said that the guy should not back out of a fight. I think he should have stayed out of a match he was not involved in. His action made it look like a school yard fight where the crowd keeps pushing the kids back in to a fight. His actions also destroyed the advantage that Toda sensei was keeping. If Toda sensei wanted him to attack, he would have backed him to the wall (Which he was doing) and the guy would have had nowhere to go. During kendo practice, I have seen people backed up against walls, out doors, across the dojo etc. The person doing the backing is gaining an advantage and will prove their point when the opponent is against a wall.

you still have to hit a valid target area as if they had not fallen...
voice, zanshin, etc. etc...

Somehow I get the feeling if that was me on the floor .....my head would still be ringing!http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/beard.gif

neil is correct.
you must IMMEDIATELY take the shot... the shimpan will call 'yamae' when someone falls...

i know this is not a hard-and-fast rule (at least, i don't think it is), but you have maybe just a couple of seconds to launch an attack on someone who has fallen..

I wouldn't do that to you Mike. Your Do is a much bigger target. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...cross_eyed.gif

"The rei-gi of Kendo is correct behaviour in all dealings with other people as you work through your daily activities. In Kendo, a failure in this behaviour is a moral failure in the Kenshi's character and training. At the practice level, Kendo is an art form, the purpose of which is to defeat one's opponent in a combat of mind against mind and strength against strength. Without the rules of etiquette from beginning to end, the Kendo becomes merely a bashing of the opponent with the goal to win with any means possible. Kendo with rei-gi remains an art and the opponent is yourself to overcome. With this in mind one is thankful to your partner for having struck you, this exposes your weaknesses and allows you to improve. Thus practice is an exchange of technique and the Kenshi must always be polite to the person giving such a gift. "

this is copied this from some writings on kendo that i have, and it it seems to me that it sums up the attitudes and behaviour you should aim to have while practising kendo. although this refers to keiko rather than shiai, what is more important than learning the art of kendo correctly? without the moral and mental side of kendo, it is nothing more than hitting people on the head with a stick.

many people participate in shiai to win or to improve their kendo. what is the point in winning against an opponent by striking them when they are down? there will be no sense of achievement or feeling that you have overcome them, instead you will be left to doubt the strength of your kendo. surely it is better to allow them to stand up and fight them evenly. that way if you win you deserve to win, or else you have the chance to fight a better kendoka and learn from the experience.

i know i would rather lose and learn and become a better kendoka for it, than win by taking advantage of my opponents bad luck and using no skill. this is not war but kendo, and both people gain from having a proper fight
anyway thats my opinion, i understand others views even if i dont agree with them
alicia

exactly what i meant
the only times ive seen people fall over has been on wet floor, or tripping over the hem of their hakama, or just stumbling unluckily. saying that someone falls over because of bad footwork may be true in some cases, but generally it is a rare occasion that could have happened to anyone, not the fault of the person that fell, so taking advantage of this is not winning on your own merit

IMHO yes, fallen opponent IS a valid target. If he/she doesn't like it, he/she should remain standing, right? (of course refs should take care of competitiors' health and stop the match if there is a danger of injury). But if you go for correct ippon (no pushing back to the groiund or kicking or whatever), why not?

Few years ago I saw a good situation in ji-geiko. Some European Kendoka fall down and his opponent Japanese Kendo-ka immediately approached to him and disarmed him by striking his shinai away (to the other end of dojo actually) a pointed shiai against his tsuki. I looked more like a police action, it was very fast, I just missed some Clinton-Eastwood-like "don't try to move, son ... " :-)

I wouldn't attack while an opponent is down, but I think it depends on your mindset at that moment. If your goal is to win the match and you are in a sporty frame of mind I can understand that hitting at any opportunity is a go. However, if you are thinking more about improving your kendo then hitting an opponent as they go down or are down is not gonna do anything to help improve your skills. Granted, I am sure if I was in a big taikai or international championship or something, I would probably take on the sporty mindset, but since that ain't in the near nor distant future for me http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif, I would rather let my opponent get up and compose themselves so I can compete against them at their best instead of hitting them in a weak moment. I feel I'd improve more this way.

THis is not, as someone suggested, a trying to win or loose situation, it is a situation of siezing the opportunity at any time a suki is apparent. As a matter of fact, it is a win or lose situation. The only reason you're looking for a tsuki is to win the match, unless Im mistaken of course. I suppose I should withdraw my previous statement and say that an exception should be made in the case that you might happen to be in the World Championship in the final or something. If that's the case I suppose you should take any advantage you've got. I actually wasn't drawing upon my [sarcasm]obviously flawed[/sarcasm] (sorry no disrespect intended, not [harshtone] either, just sarcasm ^_^) western impression of right and wrong, I was thinking more of the traditional Bushido sense of things...If someone slips in some mud and you stab em in the face, you're not gonna get much respect, I wouldnt imagine. Of couse we don't live in Feudal Japan...But anyways, it's the way it is =). If you wanna back someone up into a corner, right on. I just don't think you're getting anything but a win out of hitting someone when they're down.

i've noticed that too, jakob..
the japanese will wait a second or two, but here in the States, that start calling yamae immediately...

Hi Paul,

Why are you thinking of becoming more agressive ??? (just curious really)

I think you certainly attack enough , that is certainly not a problem... In fact personally I think you attack too much .... mainly as you don't give me a chance to do anything, to busy trying to fend off your attacks !!!! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif

Your spirit is fine.... everyone always needs more spirit.

Personaly I think alot of people mistake being agressive with spirit. It is not the samething. I mean if you look at Mark N, he has loads of spirit but you would never say he was agressive ??? or do you mean agressive in context of being more spirited as with Mark N ??

Just asking really hope you don't mind http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...s/confused.gif

YES!

... Recalling one of the pool matches of Ando at the last WKC... He went up against the Hungarian/Australian (ummm got mixed up, but anyway it was during the individual pools). His opponent fell to the ground, and whilst falling down, Ando just kept attacking his Men ..THREE TIMES before the guy sat on the floor... and then Shinpan shouted Yame.

The speed of those 3 cuts was like, your Mom crushing a cockroach at the kitchen holding one of her slippers - it was BANGBANGBANG- fast!!! Whoa.

Hi.. I think assertive and less hesitative are better ways of describing what I'm after, rather than aggressive. I think because I am still not confident with the full scope of whats allowed (in rules) and whats not... I pause.

Your spirit is fine.... everyone always needs more spirit. Fitness as well.... I need to be fitter and not fatter http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif

Personaly I think alot of people mistake being agressive with spirit. It is not the samething. I mean if you look at Mark N, he has loads of spirit but you would never say he was agressive ??? or do you mean agressive in context of being more spirited as with Mark N ?? Probably more spirited is what I'm after.. with confidence in that if I do something, then it will be allowed and correct.
I have no desire to put anyones nose out of shape by say..: Knocking them on thier backside and cutting men... or disarming someone and cutting men... or whatever.

I do not want to get pulled up on my fencing style... (I'm quite anal when it comes to rules)

Just asking really hope you don't mind http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...s/confused.gif I cant believe you asked such questions on this forum http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/wink.gif .. oh the shame http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/wink.gif http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif

Seriously :- if you or anyone else can offer advice.. its appreciated http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif

I may just be an idealist, but I don't believe in striking someone when they're down =). Since Kendo essentially is not about winning, one should be more concerned with an even match rather than if someone slipped and can be hit. Granted it is his fault for messing up footwork. I think it would be best to let them know you *could* have hit them, but back off and let them up. All in the spirit of fair play =).

y'know..i just got finised (re)-watching a video of the 2000 Southeast US Championships..
I was fighting in the shodan-nidan division against a very good player from Miami and at one point, I was moving backwards and then suddenly tried to move forward.. I lost my balance, slipped and went down to one knee.. the guy still made 2 or 3 strikes while I tried to quickly get up. I was glad the shimpan did not stop the match.

I don't blame the guy for attacking me.. I certainly would have done the same.. I was my imbalance that created the opening in the first place, so, being on the receiving end, I had no hard feelings whatsoever about being attack...

all you do is hold that shinai over your head and hope nothin' gets through.

hehe..