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Old 07-20-2012, 03:13 PM   #1
juspimoubbodo

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Default Buddhism without life after death
This is a spin-off from the Mahayana/Vajrayana forum and I though it would make a new topic in itself.

I have seen the following quote attributed to the Buddha - "Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a polluted mind, suffering will follow you, as the wheels of the oxcart follow the footsteps of the ox. Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a pure mind, happiness will follow you, as a shadow clings to a form."

It seems to me this is referring to karma and unless there is a mindstream or some kind of karmic storehouse, which survives death. how can this quote be true. Without a life after death, or mindstream, if we did something negative or positive and then died we would escape the consequences of our actions.

"In fact without a mindstream or something passing from life to life there would be no point to the eightfold noble path for the way to liberate oneself from samsara or the suffering of this life would simply be to take one's own life - end it all by committing suicide.

I honestly cannot understand any kind of Buddhism, which does not include a life after death. "
Can we have Buddhism without any focus on life after death ?

Comments ?
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:20 PM   #2
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I have said this before. Comparing enlightenment to death is similar to comparing apples to oranges. When you are dead, you are dead. (pretty amazing) It is cessation of perception and feelings. When you are dead, you don't perceive anymore. Enlightenment is peaceful living. These are two different things.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:45 PM   #3
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I have seen the following quote attributed to the Buddha - "Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a polluted mind, suffering will follow you, as the wheels of the oxcart follow the footsteps of the ox. Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a pure mind, happiness will follow you, as a shadow clings to a form."

It seems to me this is referring to karma and unless there is a mindstream or some kind of karmic storehouse, which survives death. how can this quote be true. Without a life after death, or mindstream, if we did something negative or positive and then died we would escape the consequences of our actions.
If someone is feeling ill-will/anger towards another person, slaps them in an argument and then gets a punch and a broken nose in return, what has that got to do with life after death - which isn't mentioned in the quote ?

If someone is thoughtful and kind towards others and then receives friendship and goodwill from them, what has that got to do with life after death -which isn't mentioned in the quote ?


.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:50 PM   #4
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In addition to that, is rebirth even mentioned in the 4NTs or the 8-fold path?
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:08 PM   #5
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Firstly there are many very good, well-behaved people who also suffer - why? Perhaps it is due to karmic seeds from their past lives ripening in this lifetime. Or is it God's will or just bad luck? There are many non-Buddhists who do not believe in life after death but believe happiness can be derived from sex, drugs and rock and roll or their equivalent. They are materialists not religious people.

All religions accept life after death and that is why the Buddha did not have to mention it when he gave the teaching of the four noble truths - it was accepted by everyone listening at the time as obvious, as it is by Buddhists all over Asia. It is only when Buddhism is used as some kind of New Age add-on in western societies do we have Buddhists proclaiming there is no life after death. Samsara to the Buddha and to Buddhists following his teachings meant cyclical suffering endured one lifetime after another. It was only liberation from cyclic rebirth, which would lead o the cessation of all suffering.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:33 PM   #6
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Firstly there are many very good, well-behaved people who also suffer - why?
Due to self-identification. Suffering in Buddhism is a product of clinging, attachment and self-identification.

Sickness, loss of wealth and misfortune are not necessarily "suffering", don't you think?
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:50 PM   #7
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I have seen the following quote attributed to the Buddha - "Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a polluted mind, suffering will follow you, as the wheels of the oxcart follow the footsteps of the ox. Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a pure mind, happiness will follow you, as a shadow clings to a form."

It seems to me this is referring to karma and unless there is a mindstream or some kind of karmic storehouse, which survives death. how can this quote be true.
That quote says nothing about death, and is equally true in this life as it would be in any future life.

Without a life after death, or mindstream, if we did something negative or positive and then died we would escape the consequences of our actions.
If this were true people would be queueing up to get on death row.

Death is a consequence, I would have thought someone who lived happily ever after would be the one who had escaped consequences.

"In fact without a mindstream or something passing from life to life there would be no point to the eightfold noble path for the way to liberate oneself from samsara or the suffering of this life would simply be to take one's own life - end it all by committing suicide.
That's a bit like saying as I'm going to have to retire one day there is no point working to save for my retirement, I may as well retire now. It makes no sense and it's not how the world works.

I think you'd understand the Buddhas teaching more clearly if you let go of ideas of reward and punishment, Buddhism is not about reward and punishment it's about cause and affect.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:03 PM   #8
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According to the Buddha old age, sickness and death are suffering. If we are to overcome these we need to be free from cyclic rebirth surely. But to assume that is automatic and everything ends with our death seems to me to make the eightfold noble path redundant and we simply await or even hasten death in order to end our suffering. I repeat, the four noble truths are about the liberation from samsara, which means cyclical rebirth. When we rid ourselves from clinging, attachment and self-identification it will accomplish this goal - it will not prevent us from suffering sickness, old age or death in this lifetime - there are no such beings walking on two legs on his earth who have achieved this (even the Dalai Lama gets sick and suffers due to this).
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:36 PM   #9
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A monk asked a Zen master, “What happens when you die?” The Zen master replied, I don’t know.” The monk said, “What do you mean. Aren’t you a Zen master?” And the Zen Master replied, “Yes, but I’m not a dead one.”

I have no concern about life after death, I would rather focus on getting this one right.

Gassho
Gary
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:36 PM   #10
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According to the Buddha old age, sickness and death are suffering.
The pali word dukkha cannot be translated as suffering in all places it is referred to. In the same suttas where birth, old age, sickness are referred to as dukkha, the Buddha has said the following regarding cessation of suffering.

But to assume that is automatic and everything ends with our death seems to me to make the eightfold noble path redundant and we simply await or even hasten death in order to end our suffering.
As I said, death is not nibbana. Apples and oranges.

I repeat, the four noble truths are about the liberation from samsara, which means cyclical rebirth.
4NTs are about suffering and its cessation, which applies to the present moment whether a future life exists or not.

When we rid ourselves from clinging, attachment and self-identification it will accomplish this goal - it will not prevent us from suffering sickness, old age or death in this lifetime - there are no such beings walking on two legs on his earth who have achieved this (even the Dalai Lama gets sick and suffers due to this).
MN 9.

Nibbana is not about ending existence.
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #11
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I don't believe Nibbana is about ending existence but neither do I believe death is the end of everything either. Nibbana is liberation from samsara, which is cyclical lives. Ignorance is the cause of both suffering and rebirth so once we do away with that neither will occur again.
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #12
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I have no concern about life after death, I would rather focus on getting this one right.
Sounds like a very sensible plan to me, Gary



.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:07 PM   #13
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I don't believe Nibbana is about ending existence

Nibbana is liberation from cyclical lives
Seems contradictory
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:24 PM   #14
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Can we have Buddhism without any focus on life after death ?
Of course.

IMO, mental torment happens when we seek things like 'life after death' and we get entangled with such wilderness of view. We can see this mental torment when we get lost in those thoughts.

Gotma Buddha didn't taught religious mind but a mind free from mental torment.

Religious mind needs a perfect divine order to be at peace; mean it Kamma as a divine punishment system, streams of mind, streams of life, storehouse of kamma seeds, God, Universal Consciousness, intelligent designs, spiritual evolution through eons of lives, reincarnation/rebirth or whatever... and this happens when there is a deep existential angst.

Since I have never had religious believes of any kind I am at peace if I die not being completely enlightened. I don't think there are further lives nor I need that to practice what Gotma Buddha taught.

I think this is the only existence with which we can practice what Gotma Buddha taught.

He taught that mental torment is about clinging to the five aggregates. It is about craving for more...

He left an outstanding set of exercises and clear instructions to be followed in order to quench dukkha through ending clinging to the five aggregates at the Khandha Vaga of the Nikayas.

If stream enterer is reached well done. If not, that is not a problem for me.

What matters is this very present moment.

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Old 07-20-2012, 10:50 PM   #15
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Nibbana is liberation from samsara, which is cyclical lives.
Nibbana is freedom from the desire, attachment and delusion of one's own mind and from being reborn mentally again and again as one seeks new experiences.


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Old 07-20-2012, 11:51 PM   #16
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From Wikipedia:

The term saṃsāra has been translated many ways which include but are not limited to endless suffering, cyclic existence, perpetual wandering, and transmigration. According to the Buddha, the beginning point of saṃsāra is not evident, just as there is no beginning point to a circle. All beings have been suffering in Saṃsāra for an unimaginable period, and they continue to do so until the attainment of nirvana. The Assu Sutta[2] of the Pali Canon provides an explanation of our existence in Saṃsāra:

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable (sic) beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B...1ra_(Buddhism)
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:07 AM   #17
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Hi londonabroad,

Could you put some spacing in #16 please, I get visual migraine with large blocks of computer text.

You also need to give a link to the Wikipedia page that you've referenced.

From "Handbook for Mankind" by Buddhadasa Bhikku:



Getting and being represent a form of desire, namely the desire not to let the thing that one is in the process of getting or being disappear or slip away. Suffering arises from desire to have and desire to be, in short, from desire; and desire arises from failure to realize that all things are inherently undesirable.

The false idea that things are desirable is present as an instinct right from babyhood and is the cause of desire. Consequent on the desire there come about results of one sort or another, which may or may not accord with the desire. If the desired result is obtained, there will arise a still greater desire. If the desired result is not obtained, there is bound to follow a struggling and striving until one way or another it is obtained.

Keeping this up results in the vicious circle: action (karma), result, action, result, which is known as the Wheel of Samsara. Now this word samsara is not to be taken as referring to an endless cycle of one physical existence after another. In point of fact it refers to a vicious circle of three events: desire; action in keeping with the desire; effect resulting from that action; inability to stop desiring, having to desire once more; action; once again another effect; further augmenting of desire ... and so on endlessly.

Buddha called this the "Wheel" of samsara because it is endless cycling on, a rolling on. It is because of this very circle that we are obliged to endure suffering and torment. To succeed in breaking loose from this vicious circle is to attain freedom from all forms of suffering, in other words Nirvana.

http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa6.htm As I've said before many times, there's no need for me to speculate about after death and take a position about rebirth because its totally irrelevant to my life and practice here and now.

From "Now is the Knowing" by Ajahn Sumedho:

The realization of samsara is the condition of Nibbana. As we recognize the cycles of habit and are no longer deluded by them or their qualities, we realize Nibbana.

The Buddha-knowing is of just two things: the conditioned and the unconditioned. It is an immediate recognition of how things are right now, without grasping or attachment.

At this moment we can be aware of the conditions of the mind, feelings in the body, what we’re seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking, and also of the emptiness of the mind. The conditioned and the unconditioned are what we can realize.

So the Buddha’s teaching is a very direct teaching. Our practice is not ‘to become enlightened’, but to be in the knowing, now.

http://www.buddhanet.net/nowknow2.htm


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Old 07-21-2012, 12:58 AM   #18
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Again from Wikipedia the Buddhist doctrine of Dependent Arising:

The Twelve Nidanas

Main article: Twelve Nidanas
This twelve-factor formula is the most familiar presentation, though a number of early sutras introduce lesser-known variants which make it clear that the sequence of factors should not be regarded as a linear causal process in which each preceding factor gives rise to its successor through a simple reaction. The relationship among factors is always complex, involving several strands of conditioning.[11] For example, whenever there is ignorance, craving and clinging invariably follow, and craving and clinging themselves indicate ignorance.[12]
The thrust of the formula is such that when certain conditions are present, they give rise to subsequent conditions, which in turn give rise to other conditions and the cyclical nature of life in Samsara can be seen. This is graphically illustrated in the Bhavacakra (wheel of life).

The Twelve Nidanas:

English Terms Sanskrit Terms
With Ignorance as condition, Mental Formations arise With Avidyā as condition, Saṃskāra arises
With Mental Formations as condition, Consciousness arises With Saṃskāra as condition, Vijñāna arises
With Consciousness as condition, Mind and Matter arise With Vijñāna as condition, Nāmarūpa arises
With Mind and Matter as condition, Sense Gates arise With Nāmarūpa as condition, Ṣaḍāyatana arises
With Sense Gates as condition, Contact arises With Ṣaḍāyatana as condition, Sparśa arises
With Contact as condition, Feeling arises With Sparśa as condition, Vedanā arises
With Feeling as condition, Craving arises With Vedanā as condition, Tṛṣṇā arises
With Craving as condition, Clinging arises With Tṛṣṇā as condition, Upādāna arises
With Clinging as condition, Becoming arises With Upādāna as condition, Bhava arises
With Becoming as a condition, Birth arises With Bhava as condition, Jāti arises
With Birth as condition, Aging and Dying arise With Jāti as condition, Jarāmaraṇa arises

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4...samutp%C4%81da
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:05 AM   #19
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In my understanding of the issue, karma is simply cause and effect. I don't believe in life after death or reincarnation, but I know that if I hit somebody, they'll probably hit me, or get someone else to hit me, or I might be arrested. Or even if I get away "consequence-free", I just fed the part of me that does harm instead of the part that does not do harm...surely that will come back to bite me. Simple cause and effect.


For instance, I know that recently in my life I have lied a lot (I've since put forth effort specifically to stop), and when I got away with it (which was often) it made me more likely to continue that behavior, since I thought I was escaping without harm. But eventually I'd either get caught and experience suffering through that, or hurt somebody and create suffering through that, or just feel guilty and create suffering through that. It's all just cause and effect.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:19 AM   #20
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And how does a Buddhist who does not believe in rebirth explain people being born in very different circumstances from each other? Isn't this due to causes in past lives or is it down to a creator God or just pure luck or something else?
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