[singleGirl]

Wow you civis are ****ing stupid. Fraternization is not the issue. Right now frat happens with people who it is not supposed to, gay sex happens, blah blah blah. Right NOW if a gay guy is caught it is a big deal, but in a reform of the regs would cause discontent with a large number of straights due to the commonality that not all straights are ok with gays. You allow a gay guy to room with a straight guy, command does not ask the straight guy if he is ok with it...they will order him to be. That causes discontent, morale loss, eventually the straight soldier might not retain. Loss of soldiers.

You civilians just don't understand, but try to imagine you live in a house and the government tells you to live with someone who you are not ok with living with. Imagine the rough course you will have to run. Imagine perhaps you are a religious person and they make you board with a satanist or a scientologist who practices and will practice in the house. Will you be ok with that? Probably not because Americans are not very well known for tolerance when it hits their personal space (only ok with the world at large's differences).

Oerdin, wrong. Military is commanded by the government of the people, not take orders from civilians. If that was the case then you can bet your ass too many soldiers would never deploy if civis had any control over military. Can civis go into unauthorized areas? No. Can they hop into a tank just to check it out? No. Can they make a private salute them or stand at attention for them? No. Government officials? Yes. Come on soldier boy, you should know this ****, its soldier 101.

I'm telling you all, unless you have worn the uniform and served more than basic training then you have no ****ing clue as to what it is your wanting. And I reaffirm that until ALL 50 states allow gay marriages that DADT should not be changed. The military is made up of people from every state and not every state is ok with LGBT so therefore the military does not need to bend first.

[FrereeDoulley]

Wow you civis are ****ing stupid. Fraternization is not the issue. Right now frat happens with people who it is not supposed to, gay sex happens, blah blah blah. Right NOW if a gay guy is caught it is a big deal, but in a reform of the regs would cause discontent with a large number of straights due to the commonality that not all straights are ok with gays. You allow a gay guy to room with a straight guy, command does not ask the straight guy if he is ok with it...they will order him to be. That causes discontent, morale loss, eventually the straight soldier might not retain. Loss of soldiers.

You civilians just don't understand, but try to imagine you live in a house and the government tells you to live with someone who you are not ok with living with. Imagine the rough course you will have to run. Imagine perhaps you are a religious person and they make you board with a satanist or a scientologist who practices and will practice in the house. Will you be ok with that? Probably not because Americans are not very well known for tolerance when it hits their personal space (only ok with the world at large's differences).

Oerdin, wrong. Military is commanded by the government of the people, not take orders from civilians. If that was the case then you can bet your ass too many soldiers would never deploy if civis had any control over military. Can civis go into unauthorized areas? No. Can they hop into a tank just to check it out? No. Can they make a private salute them or stand at attention for them? No. Government officials? Yes. Come on soldier boy, you should know this ****, its soldier 101.

I'm telling you all, unless you have worn the uniform and served more than basic training then you have no ****ing clue as to what it is your wanting. And I reaffirm that until ALL 50 states allow gay marriages that DADT should not be changed. The military is made up of people from every state and not every state is ok with LGBT so therefore the military does not need to bend first.

My lord, this is one of the finest pieces of zakudl we've seen since the early days.

[ViaplyVuple]

You civilians just don't understand, but try to imagine you live in a house and the government tells you to live with someone who you are not ok with living with.

Yeah, racial integration was a huge mistake

[mralabama]

Who cares if there is fraternization among them? I don't give a rat's ass what they do on their own time. Maybe I'm behind the times. Women and men used to have separate barracks. Do they still? This is a 3rd situation. Yes, they do. In cases like ships they all have seperate berthings/staterooms. Gays and straights and gays and gays should all be seperated for the exact same reasons. If you disagree with this while still advocating any seperation between males and females (anywhere) you are a hypocrite.

[Yarikoff]

Thank you Patro.

DaShi, bite your mother ****ing tongue. You have no ****ing idea. You have it harder than soldiers, do you really want to go down that road?

The fact of the matter when it came to racial integration was that there were already other races and they had to deal with racism right in their faces. They couldn't hide like gays can right now. It took a long time, and it still hasnt completely gone away, for everyone to be ok living and working with other races. For example, when I was in Korea I had gotten a roommate temporarily (I had an NCO room so he was just in the bedroom next door, shared bathroom) his name was Mohammad, he was from Trinidad.

Now Mohammad was a small, dark skinned Muslim. He was not a bright guy, actually he was really stupid, almost ran my friend over with the tank because Mohammad did not pay attention to the hand signals he was receiving. We had a sensing session once, well it was a harassment and sexism class that shifted to sensing session, and Mohammad blew up on us. And by us I mean the entire company. He claimed that we all treated him poorly, that we called him a terrorist, that we gave him **** about everything, then he went and pointed out that it was the whites and hispanics that specifically were making him feel like ****, but that the 2 blacks from the Carib were cool and the other blacks just ignored him (mind you our CO, XO, 4 PLs and 4 PSGs were ALL black....an awkward coincidence). Fact was though that we didn't treat him any less than any other stupid private. We had a dangerous job and retardation on the job gets people killed, or their feet smashed by a 62 ton track vehicle, or shot, or a .50 cal blows up in their face (ala Mohammad's tank commander). Now there were some people who did call him terrorist names or so on and so forth, but realisitcally....it was ripe in the war, it was hard for everyone to just let go of 9-11 or the war and working with a Muslim while we were getting killed by them in the mid-east (as wrong as it) is it's a feeling that is not just able to be pushed away.

Gays, well they can hide. Is it right, no, but is it right to take the military of 50 states and territories and force them to accept a sexual and life preference that is not allowed in most states?

Again, unless you served you don't get the full perspective. No matter how hard you try to debate it, force it, push it, whatever...you will not understand completely what I am getting at. I am all for it by the way, I think its a good idea to reform DADT but in a realistic manner....after all 50 states have marriage rights for gays I say drop DADT immediately. And before anyone tries saying i'm anti-gay or whatever, I voted FOR prop 8 in CA to allow gay marriages.

[gardeniyas]

Gays, well they can hide. Is it right, no, but is it right to take the military of 50 states and territories and force them to accept a sexual and life preference that is not allowed in most states?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law#United_States

[alenbarbaf]

What the hell does gay marriage have to do with DADT?

[ThekvandoVideo]

Thank you Patro. My position is not the same as yours. I fully support allowing homosexuals to serve and think all reasonable efforts to fully integrate them should be explored just like we did for women.

We just this month approved the concept of modifying our larger submarines and all new classes to accomadate women, they are designing the retrofits for the Ohios now. The biggest hurdle as far as timeframe is not the accomdations, however, but rather ensuring there is the proper strata of female rationgs/officers to silmultaneously integrate all levels of command. You don't want to throw a bunch of female recruits and JOs into an isolated enviroment without any senior female mentors.

[PheliarearY]

Loin, you allow gays into the military openly that means you allow gay unions.

You're insane.

[Uplillacype]

Is what you are trying to discuss, zaku, the whatif of gay marriage with homosexuals in the military so that a husband and a husband (or a wife and a wife) could be sharing the same barracks?

I am sure that there would be some procedure developed, after that occurs.

JM
(I didn't read all of his post, mostly just people responding to him.)

[251EPyso]

Oh, no question that his claim is rediculous, I am just trying to understand what might have caused him to make his claim.

JM

[QXCharles]

Is what you are trying to discuss, zaku, the whatif of gay marriage with homosexuals in the military so that a husband and a husband (or a wife and a wife) could be sharing the same barracks? In theory sharing the same barracks isn't a problem. Depending on rank and location some barracks are integrated, just not the actual rooms. If you are talking about bunking together in the same unit like a ship or fighting position immediate family members are not normally allowed to be assigned to the same unit anyway.

[O25YtQnn]

False. While it is true that married members automatically get BAH (which is BS, but I digress), married service members can find themselves in barracks for any number of reasons. They would not be able to share buildings in most cases or rooms in any case, but they could both end up in government quarters.

More importantly, the repeal of DADT is completely separate from the military recognizing gay marriages. In fact, current legislation (DOMA) would PREVENT the military from doing so, AFAIK.

[saopinax]

I think the best 'tell' over whether openly gay soldiers will be accepted by their comrades will be how many are actually in the armed forces. If the numbers in service are relatively large, in the order of the 'mystical' 10% number that is bandied about for the general population, then I think forced 'sexual integration' of the armed forces will (eventually) be as succesful as it has been for racial integration. If, however, the number is relatively small then 'sexual integration' will almost certainly fail army combat units but may exist for non-combat units and in other services.

[WaydayFep]

Rah, sorry to break it to you but sharing experiences doesn't apply on this thread.

The average number of gays per service also broken down by branch is drastically different. Now of course it is never easy to know if a guy/girl is gay or not and obviously, duh, we can't ask them. But if we notice that they are gay, usually by one person or the other just seeing something happen and a one on one understanding to keep quiet, then it matters little about how many now or later. Generally speaking only the tight asses, deep seeded racism/homophobia, and older generations are the ones to push the issue if it is found out. Generally speaking it is accepted if someone is gay. BUT BUT BUT, just because it is quietly accepted does not mean that it would be openly accepted. Now 9 times out of 10 soldiers don't realize if someone is gay or not, we all usually have a pretty deep private life, for the most, so that occurrence of knowing someone is gay can only be vaguely stated for maybe 5% of every battalion sized unit. In Korea, knew absolutely no gays, and I was in an all male post and an all male unit (1st and 2nd year respectively). At my last unit there was a large female population so of course you notice things a lot differently. On an all male post everyone was a guy and if you noticed anything...not guy like it stood out like a sore thumb, and obviously for a gay on an all male post it wouldn't be dream land, more like hell....combat units are not openly cool with gays. It is just like highschool 10 years ago.....

Billy is a jock, football player, dates the hottest girl in school....Billy is gay, but he is so afraid to come out because of what people will say, do, think...etc. Now Billy grows up and its ok to be gay, but he still plays football and hangs with the guys as one of the guys...now what does he do. He is afraid to come out, but its openly ok....not a simple thing to do all the time. Billy would have to suffer what happens to his team and coach, his friends....your basic coming out but with a military spin that involves life, death, and war.

[Xcqjwarl]

Rah, sorry to break it to you but sharing experiences doesn't apply on this thread.

The average number of gays per service also broken down by branch is drastically different. Now of course it is never easy to know if a guy/girl is gay or not and obviously, duh, we can't ask them. But if we notice that they are gay, usually by one person or the other just seeing something happen and a one on one understanding to keep quiet, then it matters little about how many now or later. Generally speaking only the tight asses, deep seeded racism/homophobia, and older generations are the ones to push the issue if it is found out. Generally speaking it is accepted if someone is gay. BUT BUT BUT, just because it is quietly accepted does not mean that it would be openly accepted. Now 9 times out of 10 soldiers don't realize if someone is gay or not, we all usually have a pretty deep private life, for the most, so that occurrence of knowing someone is gay can only be vaguely stated for maybe 5% of every battalion sized unit. In Korea, knew absolutely no gays, and I was in an all male post and an all male unit (1st and 2nd year respectively). At my last unit there was a large female population so of course you notice things a lot differently. On an all male post everyone was a guy and if you noticed anything...not guy like it stood out like a sore thumb, and obviously for a gay on an all male post it wouldn't be dream land, more like hell....combat units are not openly cool with gays. It is just like highschool 10 years ago.....

Billy is a jock, football player, dates the hottest girl in school....Billy is gay, but he is so afraid to come out because of what people will say, do, think...etc. Now Billy grows up and its ok to be gay, but he still plays football and hangs with the guys as one of the guys...now what does he do. He is afraid to come out, but its openly ok....not a simple thing to do all the time. Billy would have to suffer what happens to his team and coach, his friends....your basic coming out but with a military spin that involves life, death, and war.

China is gonna **** us over if everyone in our military is as much of a pansy zaku.