[Kneeniasy]

Originally posted by Berzerker


The Devil was imperfect hence the fall...therefore God created an imperfect being before creating us... I detect a pattern



Either way, you cant say God is the Creator and ignore that sin is part of the package... That leaves us with a "reason"able quest for why God allowed sin into existence. Why aint life perfect? Define perfection? I'd suggest perfection is not, nor ever was an option. How would children (or adults) play a baseball game if life was perfect? Everybody hits a homer or no one gets a hit, perfection is in the eye of the beholder and therefore cannot exist... Our very humanity requires the existence of "sin", without it there is no morality, no choices to be made, and no redemption... No, God created a holy beign, but gave Freedom to it, and the devil and his demons chose evil.

There is sin because all intelligent creatures have freedom.

[VewCoorkPow]

God if he exists would be perfect, so he cant sin and is always just.

That is another question, if God is unable to do evil, is he free?

[Rnlvifov]

God can sin, but chooses not to.

Jon Miller

[leflyCode]

BTW

Beserker, your statements show that you fundamentally do not understand/reject Christianity. I personally like Christianity a lot better than other religions (it is one of the reasons I am Christian), and I recommend that you study it

Jon Miller

[GVsdJZ2H]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
But you said all intelligent creatures have freedom, so if God isn't free, he necessarily isn't intelligent. God (if he exists) isnt a creature, he was not created, he always existed, humans, cows, angels, would be creatures, all the living things created by God would be creatures.

Christians believe Jesus as a part of the holy trinity has existed forever and therefore is God and not a creature, other "heresies" or denominations do believe therwe was a time when Jesus did not exist and that therefore Jesus is a creature, altough maybe the most exalted one, JWitnesses if I recall correctly, believe Jesus was the human incarnation of archangel gabriel (the one who told Mary she would get pregnant)

[stutnerman]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I have studied it, and the traditional explanation makes no sense. God sends his son to die a horrible death at the hands of sinners to absolve the sinners of their sins? No, God died at the hands of sinners because that is the fate we suffer. Your explanation absolves God of any responsibility for creation... You are missing the entire point of Christianity.

Millions, maybe even Billions have understood it.

Even many atheists understand it. I am not sure why you can't.

Jon Miller

[Johnny]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Christians (well, some, anyway, Christian is a rather broad term) believe that Jesus died so that we (sinners) might have a better opportunity to enter heaven. Believing in him and through his teachings and works becoming able to receive God's grace allows one entry into heaven. Christ didn't die so that some of us might enter heaven. Christ died to save us from our sins, to cloak us in His righteousness and transform us . He also promised us that He has provided a place for us, near Him.

Forgiveness of sin, only comes through Christ, and is amazing in and of itself.

Now I think it is obvious that while all sin is forgiven though Christ, that some who have no knowledge of Christ can still hvea their sins forgiven (Christ can remove your sins even if you don't know of His existence), but there is some argument about this.

Jon Miller

[veizKinquiz]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
No one else (than Christ) has though (lived a life with no sin ever). How do you know?

[Tyncneiff]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
So why can't we what? Choose not to? This sounds like a personal problem. The rest of us pretty much recognize we have a choice. Aren't you supposed to be Christian?

[pGJLweEw]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Catholics believe the virgin mary never commited a sin Yes, but they don't believe that the same is possible for the common man.

Actually, it only makes the problem worse; if the big guy could free her of original sin just like that, why couldn't or wouldn't he do the same for all of us? He's not playing favourites, is he?

[Kuncher]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Yes, but they don't believe that the same is possible for the common man.

Actually, it only makes the problem worse; if the big guy could free her of original sin just like that, why couldn't or wouldn't he do the same for all of us? He's not playing favourites, is he? It was a necessary condition for the incarnation of Jesus, since his human-ness he got from Mary

[BoboStin]

Originally posted by Barnabas


It was a necessary condition for the incarnation of Jesus, since his human-ness he got from Mary Yes, but why was Jesus necessary at all if he can cancel original sin like that?

[appletango]

Originally posted by Berzerker

Then why did Jesus instruct his followers to pray to God for forgiveness and make the "requirement" for this forgiveness that we forgive others? If he died for our sins, why would we need to ask God for forgiveness in the first place?

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"... Jesus aint even in the picture, we pray to God and we are forgiven "as" we forgive others... That lays the burden on us, not Jesus. If you want God's forgiveness, you must forgive others. He died for our sins. The gift is already there. All we must do is accept it. If I do something for you, and you don't accept it, it isn't as if it does you any good, does it?

You are once more misreading a single text, and interpreting everything else about that miscomprehension. And complaining about things not making sense.

Christ's sacrifice enabled those before and after Him to be forgiven, all their sins were upon Him on the cross, as He had no sin of His own.

As far as it goes, it is God's law that the wages of sin is death. That is set, if you will. We are all doomed to die because of sin. Now we can't get our sin forgiven by having someone else doomed to death to die for us, because they are dying for themselves. It is only by putting our sins on Christ, having Him pay the price, that we get our sins removed. And why does it work for Him? Because He didn't sin in life, as such He didn't die for His sins, and so can die for ours.

In the prayer Christ is praying to God. Remember, Christ is God also. Prayer is just as much for the person praying as for God, maybe even more for the person praying. Remember, God knows all our desires, and the all that needs doing. As such, this prayer serves as a reminder that we are to forgive others.

Jon Miller

[blogwado]

What makes you think that AT&T will ever gain access to Heaven?

[Unonounaple]

You are completely ignoring the 'Myth' of Adam.

You can't consider the 'Myth' of the Bible peicemeal. Well you can, but it isn't Christianity, and you can't say other's don't make sense because of it.

Jon Miller

[Assunkkensatt]

So what you think of directly as Myth is something like the Illiad. It is an old story that has elements of legend, fact, etc all mixed together. Generally isn't trustworthy though, and while worth study, only as fictional.

I use 'Myth' to denote something which is an old story. In some cases, whether it is detailing something that actually happened, or a story that is suppose to present a message, isn't completely clear. But it is still presenting a True message, if you will. 'Myth' is something to be studied as true, even if it isn't.

Basically it is from the perspective of the Bible having everything within it having a purpose/being true, without entering into the the discussion about whether some element is true history (like the moon landings).

Examples include early parts of Genesis, and Job, for example. Assumed in this perspective is that the Bible is inspired.

Jon Miller

[bataovady]

If God inspired the Bible, then what is in it is what He meant to have in it. The messages are His messages, the words are His words (as interpreted by the writers).

It is like having an original work written by someone in a foreign language. One person who knows some of that language, attempts to translate it. While the work is still the writer's... the translator has still interpreted it, and has colored the work that you read.

Admitedly, Biblical inpsiration is more complicated than this, but still, that is the basic idea.

If you don't beleive that God inspired the Bible, why do you beleive any of it? Isn't someone rising from the dead pretty far out there?

Jon Miller