[Kokomoxcv]

8/10

[valiumcheapll]

Idiot.



2/10

[TimoDassss]

Toast or not toast, that is the question...answer?

[Uninkipsyncp]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Idiot. I think I present a good case, any counterarguements?

[dfuzioniag]

My denomination doesn't beleive in a Hell of eternal torment.

Jon Miller

[55TRATTERENRY]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Most christians belive in predestination. Errr...no


Catholics believe God predestinates people to heaven, but not to hell.

Again, no.

[UltraSearchs]

The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man's free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.

But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.

Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church's soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:

1) Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.

2) Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God's grace. Man must continuously allow God's grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.

3) Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.

4) Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ's sacrifice.

5) God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.

There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does.

For more on the Catholic Church and Predestination, this essay by Ludwig Ott has more: Catholic Predestination
http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

[Lolita Palmer]

election?

[Pheddytrourry]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Most christians belive in predestination. I fail to see the relevance of predestination here.

It just seems to me that if you deserve hell (as many Christians contend we all do), then you should not accept Christ's gift because that would result in a wrong being committed.

[12Jasoumemoobia]

An issue I see with that anology is it appeals to something of higher moral value (his family) then what he is asking mercy from (bank regulations). What is more important then divine justice?

[ranndomderr]

read Job

what is more important than divine justice? Why bother with this question? Justice will always be divine.

As far as christians are concerned, the only way to receive eternal salvation is through Christ. Man is born to sin, but not damned to hell. It is through Christ that we are forgiven, by God, for our sins, making Christ a just and merciful Lord.

Predestination is stupid

[kertUtire]

yeah, like a Roman guard

[jimmy28]

Originally posted by Cartimandua
The alternative of accepting Christ's mercy is eternal damnation, thus in a repentent sinner's mind it ranks very highly next to divine justice. But what does that matter?

[Grarypealumma]

Oh I don't know about that. That kind of gives more credit than is due, don't you think?
Mediocre at best.

[UBJ3kvP1]

Jesus didn't die for our sins, he died for God's sins...

God took the form of man and suffered among the worst of our fates, not because we aren't perfect, but because God created imperfections and we are afflicted with those imperfections...

His act was to join us, not to have us join Him...

[K0aM7urg]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Most christians belive in predestination. What?

edit: ah

[Seiblybiozy]

Why would Jesus need to die a horrible death for our sins? That not only misplaces the blame - Jesus was without sin - it bears no logical connection to absolving us of sin. God sees us sinners and says, "I'll send my son down to suffer horribly at the hands of sinners to absolve them of sin" ?

No, if Jesus = God, then Jesus was God sharing our fate - a fate for which God is ultimately responsible...

[LICraig]

By the way, Saint therese of Avila said once, that when a human resists a sexual temptation, that human resisted a greater temptation that the one that made the devil fall.


It is not related much tot his thread, but felt like sharing it.

[Grenader]

But God did not create the devil as evil, the devil is a fallen angel. The Devil was imperfect hence the fall...therefore God created an imperfect being before creating us... I detect a pattern

The question would be, why did God create the devil, if God knows the future, and knew before creating the devil, that it would become evil. Either way, you cant say God is the Creator and ignore that sin is part of the package... That leaves us with a "reason"able quest for why God allowed sin into existence. Why aint life perfect? Define perfection? I'd suggest perfection is not, nor ever was an option. How would children (or adults) play a baseball game if life was perfect? Everybody hits a homer or no one gets a hit, perfection is in the eye of the beholder and therefore cannot exist... Our very humanity requires the existence of "sin", without it there is no morality, no choices to be made, and no redemption...

[grattperret]

What justifications do Christians use for moral behaviour apart from supernatural bribery? Are there any denominations which don't believe in any afterlife?