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#1 |
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I know it would frighten me, cause me pain.
Probably would kill me if you kept it up for a while. I am pissed that we are doing these.. And if we don't treat others nice, others won't treat us nice. Just for a purely amoral look. I don't mean these Al Queda.. I mean if we don't have a MO for being fair to prisoners.. whoever we war against won't have any utilitarian reason to be nice to ours... Jon Miller |
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#2 |
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#3 |
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#4 |
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What is this supposed "confirmation" that torture (and yes, based on the ABC news article, it's definitely torture) has produced good intel?
ABC's chief investigative correspondent (one of the authors of the ABC article I linked to) on O'Reilly definitively stating that the use of these techniques got results, helped prevent attacks on America and saved American lives. |
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#6 |
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ABC's chief investigative correspondent (one of the authors of the ABC article I linked to) on O'Reilly definitively stating that the use of these techniques got results, helped prevent attacks on America and saved American lives. Which are presumably secret, so we will never really know, will we?
Is there a transcript, btw? -Arrian |
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#7 |
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#9 |
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#10 |
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#11 |
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Those techniques are definitely torture. Attention grab doesn't seem like a torture though. But you can make something out of those too.
Doing the stress positions thing is torture. Hey, I don't care if some people here have stood 2 hours straight and not moving. That's kind of not what they do, get it? Slapping is not far from punch, the impact is about the same, the surface is just different. Have you ever seen fights without closed fists? I have. They are brutal, it's called open palm strike. B1tches slap... it's open palm striking, which is equivalent to any kind of striking. The water part? classic torture methods. These are all known methods, attention grab, I don't know what that is though. But nice names for torture. I like the slaps, kind of like some people do to their kids. Or long time standing. I mean, that's just standing, right? ![]() But what can I say. I trust in the law of karma. |
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#12 |
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It's very sad to me to watch American views toward torture continue to twist and warp. Before torture would have been completely unacceptable - "We are Americans, we are Westerners, torture is something that the communists do, not us!"
But now that they've been scared senseless, more and more Americans have no moral qualms at all about torture or the destruction of due process or the destruction of seperation of powers or anysuch. As long as they are told it makes them safer, they seem to support it... Oh well. |
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#13 |
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being known for torture was .. few years ago to make a country into rogue category, and one reason more to pick a fight if needed, used as justification. It's been a big turn around for sure. I often see the scenario, if we used torture to save all these people, wouldn't it be worth it?
But that's the wrong question to ask. You can justify anything with false questions like that. The same goes on with trading your privacy to what, security? Privacy IS security!! You guys are losing so much in so few years, in terms of civil 'rights', and no one is really even fighting for it. Privacy is equally important as is freedom of speech. I bet, that if there was '10 point plan' to fight terrorism or other threats, and it included banning some phrases used in communication, you wouldn't fight it. Let's say that they are known key words and codes for terrorist communication, so why nto just ban from you to use it in your lives. I'm 100% there woudl be no fight for this, even though it makes no sense. I mean it makes sense in some perspective, but... not in the perspective of freedom and security. These bad boys aren't excluding each other out... they are overlapping. Or at least should be. Since when did Americans want someone to tell them what to do anyway? I thought that was a no no... think for yourselves, that's why you have brains... and fight any deprivation of privacy in the name of security. |
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#14 |
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Even if torture "worked" - which is doubtful - how is that relevant to anything? Most people don't oppose torture primarily because of its ineffectiveness, they oppose it because it is torture, and morally wrong. Who cares if it "worked?"
Good people do not torture. I don't care if it makes me safe for the rest of my life; profiting off torturing and humiliating others is a bankrupt existence. |
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#15 |
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"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
-- Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N Declaration of Rights" |
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#16 |
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Originally posted by Velociryx
The real problem, Tass, lies with the fact that the minority who don't have a problem with resorting to these tactics all got high level jobs in a little town called Washington DC, and even if we got rid of the politicians tomorrow, many of these guys are fill non-elected posts....they're in place for the long haul, and they'll keep pushing their agenda.... A clean sweep is needed. Jefferson was right. -=Vel=- But it isn't as if the people have no blame here. Were torture widely unpopular in the US, not even the Bush Admin would attempt to push it forth (at least, in such a blatant matter). However, the fact is that a significant minority (if not a majority) of the American population find nothing wrong with torture at all, as long as it isn't commited against them. Yes, the general non-democratic nature of the US Government structure is partly to blame, but ultimately the people could change it if they wanted to. |
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#17 |
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The morally wrong arguement is interesting as well. Consider the main complaint regarding the so called fundamentalists of either Christian or Islamic stripe. Their world is broken down into right and wrong and there can be no allowable discourse to persuade them otherwise. When people see that their backs get up as they see these as symptonms of intolerance and closed mindedness of the group in question.
How does this differ then from the fundamental unshakeable belief that things of this nature are morally wrong? |
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#18 |
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Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
The morally wrong arguement is interesting as well. Consider the main complaint regarding the so called fundamentalists of either Christian or Islamic stripe. Their world is broken down into right and wrong and there can be no allowable discourse to persuade them otherwise. When people see that their backs get up as they see these as symptonms of intolerance and closed mindedness of the group in question. How does this differ then from the fundamental unshakeable belief that things of this nature are morally wrong? The problem is that, when it comes to morality, if two sides do not have a common ground....logical and rational discourse *is* impossible. Reason is a slave to the passions, and is implimented insofar as those passions allow. Ultimately it is impossible to rationally argue two different moral beliefs except within some pre-existing system of morality. Would you say that you have an issue that you cannot compromise, morally? For example, your family....Would it be okay for me to torture them for any reason, even national security? For me, that is also a clear "No!" - and I suppose you could superficially compare it to any other moral system that declares something to be completely good or completely evil. |
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#19 |
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Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
But it isn't as if the people have no blame here. Were torture widely unpopular in the US, not even the Bush Admin would attempt to push it forth (at least, in such a blatant matter). However, the fact is that a significant minority (if not a majority) of the American population find nothing wrong with torture at all, as long as it isn't commited against them. Yes, the general non-democratic nature of the US Government structure is partly to blame, but ultimately the people could change it if they wanted to. I agree with your assessment that by and large the public actually supports (tacitly or otherwise) this. To yourpoint that Americans claimed never ever under any circumstances torture prior to 9/11, I would suggest is misreading the US public. While onthe surface those claims may have been presented in a wrold forum it likely wasn't Joe American talking as even pre 9/11 you could show example after example of the culture presenting hero after hero working above or around the law making monsters pay dearly when red tape would get in the way. Dirty Harry ![]() |
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#20 |
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Originally posted by Velociryx
the answer would have been a resounding NO! But even in the last election, many of these things were widely known. We already knew that Bush believed himself to be above the law, we already knew that he considered the structure of the US government to be flawed (in that he wasn't dictator), we already knew that he had no qualms about doing evil things abroad....And yet many Americans voted for him anyway. Plus, it doesn't particularly matter what happend back then as what is happening right now. Many Americans support these actions, therefore many of them share in the moral negativity. I think a big problem is nationalism - many Americans cannot see how their country could possibly be wrong, and hence no actual critical self-evaluation takes place. |
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