[DadaSeeva]

Hello. I am in the midst of making a very important decision, how I will make a living, in light of living an Orthodox life, or perhaps even becoming a priest in the future.

I have interests in sacred music, literature, and theology. I have talked to PhDs in music and literature and the lit prof told me even persons with his education level are having a hard time finding full time work. My voice instructor told me literally "If you can find anything else to make a living, do it. And do this as an avocation." So in light of perhaps becoming a priest, neither one of these would be optimal because of the lack of stability. Im not going to let parishoners dictate how I run the parish by holding my paycheck hostage.

I am a former Marine, army, and OIF vet and during my around 8 years between both services active. During which I was in the intelligence field. Unfortunately during my time in the army, I never got the clearance which I was supposed to get and also I was supposed to be retrained and I got sent to Baghdad instead.

I mention this because I have an opportunity to attend both training in the reserves, and study for a BA degree in intelligence studies with a MA degree which can be attained with not too much more difficulty. I enjoy this, and upon attaining those degrees Id have many opportunities. However I am concerned I will focus on this and my faith will suffer. Wouldnt it do this with music or literature? No. Because the great music and literature of the age have been written by Catholics (Orthodox and Roman) and what wasnt directly from this such as the Lutheran composers like Bach or Handel or some Anglican composers, they are working off the Catholic capital and grace afforded by grace not doctrine. So in seeing the beauty of Shakespear's works, or Rachmaninoff's Vespers or concertos, or Vivaldi's (a Priest) guitar concertos or of course the 4 seasons, I see the Lord inspiring them and working through them. Its not that way with the intelligence field. Which is concerned with worldly affairs.

Also I am thinking perhaps I am too much discerning things, rather than trusting the Lord. As I have a AA degree I could attend St. Tikons for 5 years and be ordained if all goes well. Now Id have to find some sort of work outside of the parish most likely, but am I being untrusting by trying to fend for myself?

Im kidna at a crossroads if anyone can give any thoughts, Id greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,
Keith S

[aaaaaaaabbbby]

If "discerning things too much" means "thinking heavily before takeing a decision" then i do not think you are discerning things too much because it is hard for sinful people like us to find out God's will. If instead "discerning too much" means "not following a vocation revealed by God once you found out His will", then i think you may be discerning to much. But your message does not sound like you know for sure that God wants you to be a priest. Cuz in that case you would just follow this road and let Him worry for everything else. So the situation is kinda complicated...hope you will find here someone who knows better your local conditions but above all hope you will find a man of prayer that will be able to guide you. When we dont know what advice to give i think we can repeat an advice that always works for sure : Pray untill God answers somehow because He always does.

[mirzaterak]

Keith,

You do not "choose" on your own to become a priest. The Church (in the person of your bishop) must choose you - your only choice is then to agree with that calling or to reject it. Thus, if you want to go to seminary to learn about the faith - that's great, but don't assume you will be allowed to enter the priesthood just because you think you might want to. My own leaning in such a matter is to avoid ordination at all costs - and if God truly is calling you to the priesthood, you will not be able to avoid it. OTOH, if ordination is borne out of your own will then by avoiding it, you have saved yourself an great trial, and possibly even preserved your own salvation.

In reading your comments, I think that perhaps you have an inaccurate idea of what a priest is supposed to be. The parish priest is the father of his parish. He is not the "employee" or the ruler or the manager of the parish - he is the father. Your parish will follow your lead, not because you are the priest, but because they see your love and compassion for them and in turn they love you. Any priest who is truly a father to his parish will seek to avoid working outside the parish for his outside job will rob him of the time and energy that should be devoted to his spiritual children. I say this as a priest who had to hold an outside job for nearly 15 years of my priesthood. As soon as it became feasible to walk away from my outside work - I did. During those "tentmaker" priest years, I worked one full time job (my secular career) and one "job" that demanded more than full time (my priesthood). It's burning the candle at both ends and sometimes in the middle. All of your "spare time" has to be given to the Church and to your spiritual children - and even then its not enough.

If you want a life that is independent of the parish or even the support of the parish, then I suggest to you that you do not go to seminary, but find a career that you enjoy and pursue it and be a pious layman. You will do more good as a support to the priest you do have than you could do as a priest who did not care for his people and did not depend upon them (as they depend upon him).

Fr David Moser

[Fsfkkkjz]

Thank you Father for the post. Perhaps I can expound a bit. I come from a Catholic background. Im used to the priest being okay without having another career. And me saying that makes it indeed sound like a career and not a calling. Thats my fault. In talking to Fr. Andrew Phillips of ROCOR in England, well Ill quote him for you.

"Dear Keith,

I think you are trying to run before you have learned how to walk. That is due to your Non-Orthodox background. In the Church it simply does not work the way you have imagined.

Think about training for a career which will youw ill enjoy and will also give you an income (this is vital) to marry and raise a family. Join the Orthodox Church in one of irs dioceses in the USA and live life as a layman. Ten years on, we shall see. I totally agree with the UOC priest. In the Church you have to look out for yourself." The UOC priest he is talking about is Fr. Dennis Kristof of St. Nicholas Lakewood, Ohio. Fr. Simon Pimen of the Old Believers parish advised me the same Father. I was sad to hear this, as I did in fact want to be able to dedicate my entire being to the parish. What you said is how I thought it should be. This quest to get a job is something new to me because from the Catholic Church its not a worry. You get a standard salary and a place to live. But Fr. Pimen said in some parishes, you dont get a salary, you get an allowance. Something along the lines of $6000 a year is what he quoted. Alone I could make that last probably 3-4 months. With a family? A month or two if the wife is not working. Ive also heard from several clergy other than those listed that parishoners will hold the priests salary from them to get em to compromise on matters of the Liturgy or Faith. This to me is infuriating. I wont be held hostage because someone wants to cut the vigil down or shorten the Liturgy so they can go home and watch tv.

So despite the poor wording of my post, referring to the priesthood to a career, thats not what I meant. I always understood it to be a calling. The most sacred one at that. Its just in light of what those other priests have advised, it would behoove me to 'make tents' as you and St Paul have put it. Its not what I wanted if the priesthood is indeed my calling. I wanted to dive into it full and perhaps a little fool heartedly. This is why I ask advice. It seems parishes are unable or just unwilling to support their priest and their families. A sad development.

[Adamanta]

In talking to Fr. Andrew Phillips of ROCOR in England, well Ill quote him for you.

I totally agree with the UOC priest. In the Church you have to look out for yourself."

... Fr. Pimen said in some parishes, you dont get a salary, you get an allowance. Something along the lines of $6000 a year is what he quoted. Alone I could make that last probably 3-4 months. With a family? A month or two if the wife is not working. Ive also heard from several clergy other than those listed that parishoners will hold the priests salary from them to get em to compromise on matters of the Liturgy or Faith. This to me is infuriating. I wont be held hostage because someone wants to cut the vigil down or shorten the Liturgy so they can go home and watch tv. As a priest, I have always found that I don't have to look out for myself (in matters of finances or survival) - God does that quite well and often miraculously. My only task is to offer to Him my whole self and to take care of the flock that He has entrusted to me to the best of my ability. Read the lives of the saints and see how God provided for them with no effort on their parts - even when there was nothing there. Look at the lives of St John of Kronstadt or St Moses of Optina and how finances and provisions appeared at the very moment they were needed - and how these saints not only depended on such divine provision, but didn't even think twice or regard it as anything out of the ordinary.

I have a family, my wife has always worked outside the home, and I raised my children (which means that not only do I "burn the candle at both ends", but that I burn it in the middle as well) well enough. It's important to realize that when a man is ordained to the priesthood - it is not his burden alone, but that the whole family takes it on, especially the wife (one of the reasons why the Matushka is so revered in the parish - they know how hard she works and how much she sacrifices so that her husband is free to care for the parish.) My wife is not only the wife and mother of the family, she is also the choir director, cleaner, supply purchaser, website manager, and a million other things in the parish. She is my greatest support and without her I could not even begin to be the pastor of this parish in any meaningful manner.

I remember talking with a friend - also a priest in a mission parish - who commented with a wry smile that it used to be that the parish would support the priest, but that now it is more often the case that the priest supports the parish. Sometimes that's the way it is. My current parish pays me a "housing allowance" that basically covers my current house payment (its structured this way for tax purposes). There is a set "full time salary" for a priest on record, but the parish has never been able to pay me anywhere close to that (I'm currently at about a .6 fte level) even though the "salary" is equivalent to what a social service agency might pay to a new graduate doing hourly casework (and that's not far from the minimum wage/poverty level). Maybe someday I might get a salary - but that's not important to me. What is more important is that the parish is cared for now (by me) and in the future (by whomever might come after me here). Actually my situation is pretty "comfortable" by comparison when I look at some other clergy families. I know that there are those who struggle way more than I, but I also know that they depend on God's provision and they are never disappointed.

There are indeed "priest killer" parishes out there - but they don't last. Eventually no priest will go there and the parish will die out for lack of care. One thing to remember though when you say that as a priest you want to run your parish without interference from the people in it. You do not "run" your parish at all on your own. The parish belongs to the bishop and you run it for him. You don't have to bow to the wishes of the parish council - but you do have to follow the directions of your bishop. Thus if the bishop tells you to change this or that in the services - you do it whether or not it is what you wanted. There have been a couple of times in the recent past where I have received an ukaz (edict) from the bishop that ran completely counter to what I wanted to do - but its his parish, not mine and so I set aside how I want to run the parish and run it as he sees fit (he is supportive and respects my ideas and does listen when I have an objection - but he doesn't always agree with my ideas.)

In the end, I think that Fr Andrew's advice is sound (I know and respect Fr Andrew) and probably the best course:
Think about training for a career which will youw ill enjoy and will also give you an income (this is vital) to marry and raise a family. Join the Orthodox Church in one of irs dioceses in the USA and live life as a layman. Ten years on, we shall see. Fr David

[corsar-caribean]

Thank you very much Fr. David. When I mentioned discerning to much, it was in light of what you said in your first paragraph. Did I not trust in the Lord to sustain me if I jumped into it? I did want to dedicate myself in totality(perhaps doing stuff as side hobbies but not as a sustaining career). But I probably will not go to seminary right now. Perhaps I can for a Theology degree and teach. I wish you Godspeed on your situation. Its wonderful that your wife contributes so much. I pray that you will earn a little comfort and not loose any zeal. Thank you, and thank you too Vlad.

[Tryphadz]

Ask God to direct you in your next Job.

Dear God, I am at a crossroad and I am trying to decide regarding my future job. Please make me get the best job for me and my family so I go to a direction that will help me have everything I need in this life and in after life and that I will be able to enjoy them in this life and in after life. Also please find for me the job that will not hinder my salvation and will help me and my family for my salvation . Also please help as many people as possible find the best job for them, their family and their salvation.

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