Relevance of the Sunni aqeeda with regard to the Creation/non creation of the Quran?
 

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Is the Quran uncreated was/is a major sunni Islam creed. Imam bin Hanbal (ra) was beaten by a Mutazila king for refusing to endorse their view that it is created. What is the relevance of this aqeeda..if uncreated what does it mean in practice and what does this change if other groups believe it is created? I am just trying to understand this any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Saying Quran is created can lead to saying Allah's speech and hence Allah's attribute is created. Saying Quran is not created can lead to saying a creation is Allah's Speech or that Allah's speech dwell in creation and or that Allah's attributes divides from Himself and descends into creation and so forth.

I said "can lead to" because it all depends on what you mean by "Quran". The asharis therefore distinguish the two meanings for "Quran", seperating creation from what is Allah attribute of speech, as often times because of lack of clarity in what they mean by "Quran" falsehood is implied or argued using it either by those negate Allah's attribute of Speech or by those who affirm a anthropomorphic idea of Allah's speech.

What do they mean by Quran? The book is obviously created from paper and ink, when we recite it our voices are created, so what is uncreated?

The uncreated Qur'an is referring to the uncreated attribute of speech of Allah. All Allah's attributes are eternal and uncreated.

Yes, the asha'ris have Kalam Nafsi which is the uncreated attribute, and kalam lafzi, which is the created ink and paper etc which corresponds to Kalam Nafsi.

If you say the Qur'an is created in the sense of the attribute, you are essentially stripping that attribute from Allah since Allah's attributes by definition can only be uncreated and eternal.

I think if you ask the scholars they will tell you that they mean the verses of the Qur'an themselves,

certainly not the paper or ink or the voice of the reciter.

at one time some Hanbalis went to great extremes on this issue,

but that was not the way of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (ra).

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/salam.gif

The Ash'aris believe that the wording of the Qur`an is created, which means that they have almost the same I'tiqad as the Mu'tazilah in this matter.
They only regard the meaning of the Qur`an to be uncreated, which is impossible according to their own I'tiqad because they say that the uncreated speech of Allah ta'ala is one indivisible meaning, while we know that the Qur`an contains meanings and is divisible.

This is not true! The Hanabilah/Atharis regard the voice of the recitator and the ink as created!!
But we regard the wording and the meaning of the Qur`an al-karim as uncreated and this is the I'tiqad of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (rahimahullah).

(Please close this thread during Ramadhan, if it leads to arguing.)

Please close this thread during Ramadhan, if it leads to arguing. Oh yeah, and what about your very provocative description of ash'ari i'itiqad? Take your own advice.

So you believe words can be uncreated? Interesting.

It's not my fault, when the Ash'aris say provocative things. They said that the wording is created and they said that the uncreated speech of Allah ta'ala is one indivisible meaning. Please ask them why they're saying such things.

Well, we're not speaking about any words, rather we're speaking about the words of Allah ta'ala!! And yes I regard the Qur`an to be uncreated from the first Ayah till the last one!! None of it is created!!

If it would be like our words (i.e. created), Allah ta'ala would not have said:

{ وَإِن كُنْتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَىٰ عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَٱدْعُواْ شُهَدَآءَكُم مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَٰدِقِينَ }
{ فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَٱتَّقُواْ ٱلنَّارَ ٱلَّتِي وَقُودُهَا ٱلنَّاسُ وَٱلْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَٰفِرِينَ }

{ If you are in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then bring a Sūrah similar to this, and do call your supporters other than Allah, if you are true. }
{ But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then guard yourselves against the Fire, the fuel of which will be men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. }

[2:23-24]

(I'm out of this thread.)

Allah says, when He wills to create a thing, all He does is say 'Kun' and it is.

Is 'Kun' created?

The Prophet http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/pbuh.gif sought refuge in Allah's perfect words according to an authentic narration.

Did the Prophet http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/pbuh.gif seek refuge in a created thing? You can't say it's the Kalam Nafsi because it's an indivisible, single word, as stated in Aqeedah Nasafi.

you brothers do realise that some muslims are being massacred in india right now?

"Words of the Quran" also requires further explantion. What do you mean by "words" ? Written words as in drawing scripts ? Do imagery scripts somehow emerge out of a speech ? Or do you mean spoken words as in different sounds of reciting the arabic alaphabets and making sentences using combination of sounds of those Arabic alphabets? ? Does Allah speak like humans having sounds with certain measured properties that can measured using physical instruments, and it emerges out of Allah's self and descends into people's hears?

Either one says "Words" of Allah's Speech is something accepted based on tafweed as come in the book of Allah without howness nor tasbih. In this case then any image that people imagine to be the howness of Allah's speech is negated of Allah as those images are nothing but images of creation. In this there in no way the words written down by the sahabah who recorded the Quran into books can be considered as Allah's words in essence and modality itself just as our recitation is not the same as the reality of Allah's speech in essence and modality. Quran has also come in 7 modes of recitation. Yet no one said that it means Allah spoke the Quran 7times in 7modes of recitation.

If one says instead that Allah speaks in reality Arabic words no different to how humans speak with just some change in pitch and wavelength of the voice of Allah, then the person is an anthropomorphist who likened Allah to creation.

Some of the hanbalis were manly concerned with the former while anthropomorphists exaggerate and took the latter understanding. And this is wy is necessary to make clear distinction of the meaning as the anthropomorphists survive based on playing with words and rhetoric.

Then he is an anthropomorphist. Ok, understood. Not returning to this thread, you guys have fun with this if you insist.

How is that particular verse on Musa alahy salaam any different from whole Quran itself when the Quran as whole is the speech of Allah? It applies to all and that particular verse adds nothing to your argument. And besides Musa alaihi salaam was not even an Arabic speaking person. So if anything, its an added proof of otherwise.

Hey I just asked a question to gain some understanding not to start some arguments, please mods close this thread.

This is whats wrong with the ummah. Let people follow their schools of thought and dont attack each other or argue. Work on the important things like the jihad in syria, the drought in somalia, the dawah in the west, the opposing of missionary tactics in indonesia, the islamic political takeover and rebuilding of egypt, these are the important things.

There is no problem with sitting in a mosque and doing your dhickr, or learning salafi aqeedah or ashari aqeedah, but teh school of thought you follow should be something personal to the individual, whatever they feel benefits them the most, as an ummah we should be united and working together, the ummah is in an awful mess and we have a lot of work to do. Are you really goign to waste a second on this rubbish when the ummah is in its current situation? If your family is hungary, woudl you sit tehre and wait for food to appear? NO! You'd get out tehre and put food on the table. You'd take practical efforts. In the same way. we all have a duty to take practical actions to serve the ummah and save it from the current catastrophe we are facing inshAllah so dont waste time on this, all sunnis must unite together inshAllah and work on teh important matters and not oppose each others efforts. Al kauthar has got some people practising, tablighees have got some people practising etc, some people dont want to go out on jama'at and some people dont want to attend a weekend seminar, if we all do what we feel raises our imaan the most and respect taht our brother may find more benefit elsewhere, if we respect each other and dont oppose each other, and bust ourselves on cooperation in aiding the ummah, inshallah it will not take long to take back our muslim lands and rebuild them along islamic lines with strong economies etc too, and do what needs to be done inshallah to restore izza to the ummah inshallah

Where and Why ??

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/...cle3681882.ece