[khjhkfggt]

I'm improving day by day , I'm not so depressed as I used to be before thanks to God and my hope has grown now,
But now I need to know if I am a good muslim or not, and this time I'm not questioning it becuz of my paranoia, I'm not asking this bcuz I'm aspecting you to see what's in my heart but just to be aware if my iman is ok or not.

What I need to know is, do we have to understand everything to be true believers? because there are certain things in Islam that I just can't understand, but however I trust my heart bcuz I know that if my mind is not able to understand it doesn't mean that my heart doesn't believe it, and I know it because I fear Hell a lot, and I know my fear is real.. but is it enough to be a believer? I mean fearing hell?

For example I just don't understand predestination.. I can't, but then I like to think that it's because my intelligence is not good enough for that.. so I trust my heart, I believe it though I don't understand it.. there are other things that I just can't understand, no matter how hard I try, I just can't but I recognize that it is my limitation and I believe anyway..

but then I wonder if I am a good believer.. Qur'an always emphasizes the reason which I just don't have.. but I know that my heart believes bcuz I feel it is true thought I don't understand it.. that's why I'm questioning my iman.. I wonder If I am a good believer even if I don't understand certain things?.. my faith is blind faith, but what can I do? I can't change my brain.. If I only could I would do it..I would chose to have a very claver brain that understands everything but I just don't have such intelligence.. am I responsible for this lack of knowledge?

[jacknates]

I have recently tried to write something on the same theme. Kindly go through it as it might help http://dratifyousafzai.blogspot.com/...eality-ii.html

[yWleIJm4]

I have recently tried to write something on the same theme. Kindly go through it as it might help http://dratifyousafzai.blogspot.com/...eality-ii.html

[Breevereurl]

For example I just don't understand predestination..

You are on a train (life). The train runs on the tracks, and doesnt deviate from the track. Allah is in charge of when the train starts (birth), when the train stops (death), and any stop offs on the way (life events), or any passengers picked up on the way (people you meet in life), or any incidents that might effect the train, storms, weather, broken tracks, engineering faults of the train (externalities)

You are on the train, despite not knowing EVERYTHING about railway engineering or the journey. But Allah knows EVERYTHING about the train and its journey. The train and it tracks and its journey are NOT in your control.

The train is an analogy for predestination

While on the train, you have a choice which carriage to be on, whether to sit down or stand up, whether to pray or to curse, whether to sleep most the journey, or to stay awake in learning, whether to treat other passengers good, or treat them bad, whether to do business with the conductor in a friendly manner, or a rude manner (free will)

The passenger on the predestinend train is YOU and ME.

Allah knows EVERYTHING about what happens on the train, its passengers choices (you and me), AND is incharge of THE TRAIN itself.

We only know little of the train, and the twists and turns of the journey, but have FULL free will, as passengers to behave however we like.

hence predestination (TRAIN JOURNEY) meets free will (PASSENGERS)

Remember the inks are dry and the tablet has been written. What we do from now to our deaths, Allah ALREADY knows, as in one sense, its ALREADY happened.

Past present and future are rolled into one, when the Creation of Time doesnt apply.

And Allah is beyond Time. He is Al-Baqi (The Everlasting)

[poispanna]

You are on the train of life. The train runs on the tracks, and doesnt deviate from the track. Allah is in charge of when the train starts (birth), when the train stops (death), and any stop offs on the way (life events), or any passengers picked up on the way (people you meet in life), or any incidents that might effect the train, storms, weather, broken tracks, engineering faults of the train (externalities)

You are on the train, despite not knowing EVERYTHING about railway engineering or the journey. But Allah knows EVERYTHING about the train and its journey. The train and it tracks and its journey are NOT in your control.

The train is an anlalogy for predestination

While on the train, you have a choice which carriage to be on, whether to sit down or stand up, whether to pray or to curse, whether to sleep most the journey, or to stay awake in learning, whether to treat other passengers good, or treat them bad, whether to do business with the conductor in a friendly manner, or a rude manner.

The passenger on the predestinend train is YOU and ME.

Allah knows EVERYTHING about what happens on the train, its passengers choices (you and me), AND is incharge of THE TRAIN itself.

We only know little of the train, and the twists and turns of the journey, but have FULL free will, as passengers to behave however we like.

hence predestination (TRAIN JOURNEY) meets free will (PASSENGERS)

Nice explanation, it helped me to understand a little more.

[casinochniks]

The issue of predestination is a philosophical conundrum as well and it leads to some perplexing questions which can only be sorted out through belief in the Almighty. So why should one feel that he has a free will when everything around us is so fixed? This fixation encompasses each and everything and their is no exception to that. The earth revolves around the sun through a constant speed and it can not be altered by a fragment of a second. The trees around us are made of hydrocarbons and nothing other than hydrocarbons can form the trees. The force of gravity acts in downward direction with a magnitude of 9.8 m/s2 and it can not be any other way around. So we live in a fixed universe. Liver produces bile and stomach produces Gastric. None of these can be the other way around , none of these can be different and none of these realities can have alternate descriptions.

The only thing which assures a human being to be a special enough to be out of this fixation is his free will. We intend to do something and execute our intentions in a free way. This free will seems to be random enough to transcend the orderly fixation around us. However , deep down this free will is just an illusion and religion has nothing to do with this illusion. Suppose there is a person who freely wills to go for a bank robbery. He has freely intended to do so and it seems that due to this free intention , the person is out of the game of fixation. However , their is a deep disciplined line of cause and effect governing the intention of this person. This man decided to go for a robbery as he saw his daughter weeping. His daughter was weeping because she could not buy her desired cell phone. The thought of that desired cell phone came into the mind of his daughter only when she saw that cell phone in the hands of her friend.her friend thought of buying that cell phone only when she saw it in an add on TV. Her friend has bought that cell phone because her father could pay for. Her father could pay for it because he was wealthy enough. He was wealthy enough because his parents had properly educated him in the right discipline. His parents had properly educated him because they had attended some good educational seminars about which a friend of them had informed them............. one can add much to it.

So the person who apparently seems to have a free will to intend for a robbery is just a participant in a chain of cause and effect. It was already fixed somewhere in the distant past and he did not have any option/choice in that. His free will is just an illusion. If it is so then whats the way out? The only way out is to believe that all the good and bad comes from the Almighty. He is just and he knows how much justly have i used the amount of my intention in which i am free. He knows how much i deserve and accordingly i become a participant in a good or bad chain of cause and effect.

[teridbruse]

Walikum Assalam Wa Rehmatullah.

It can by simply understood as this:

Our free-will is already known by Allah and preserved. Whatever we do out of our own choice is already in the Knowledge of Allah and written in The Tablet. However, His Knowledge does not compel us to perform the acts. Lets say Allah knows I'll miss Fajr tomorrow; the missing of Fajr will be according to my own negligence but since Allah is All-Knowing, He'd already know that I'll be negligent and miss Fajr. Moreover, the missed Fajr isn't due to the compulsion of Allah's Knowledge but rather on my own will.

Hope it helped.

And Allah knows best.

[MpbY5dkR]

Sister, the fact that you have questioned your-self and are looking into your heart is a clear sign that you are a true believer. You're fear of hell and struggle to understand Islam are also clear signs that your are a believer of a high caliber.

One does not need to understand everything in Islam to be a believer. You just need to know the basics. You understand that there is a God, right? And that He is omnipotent, and that He has sent Prophets and Messengers to us so that we may worship Him only? You understand that after death we will be resurrected right? And that our actions here will decided our fate in the hereafter? If you understand all this, then you are a true believer. You don't need to go into the nitty gritty stuff, thats what scholars are for.

ps: Brother Adil Faiyaz explained qadr pretty good. Thats all there is too it, nothing too technical, right?

[popandopulus]

For example I just don't understand predestination..

Wasalam,

No problems sister, come, let me explain to you with the very little knowledge that I have and my understanding of predestination in very laymans terms.


You do believe that Allah Swt has the knowledge of all things, that is from the beginning of time right to the end of time, don't you??? This is the crux of understanding predestination.

Let me give you an example and how people misunderstand it, the kuffar ask why will they be punished for their deeds when it was predestined for them to disbelieve??

Say you have a child, he just loves chocolates, you know very well he loves chocolates and any opportunity he gets to eat them he will eat them, you just know him too well.

One day you buy some nice swiss chocolotes its for a special occassion so you tell your child not to eat them, then suddenly you get a call and need to go somewhere in a hurry, so you tell your child DON'T EAT the chocolates. You know the moment you step out of that house he's gonna have a ball of a time, he is gonna eat the chocoloates.

Then when you get home it's no surprise to you, he ate the chocolates even though you told him not to. Now think of the knowledge of Allah Swt, you may still have some element of doubt on whether your child will eat the chocolates or not right?? Allah's knowledge is complete, their is absolute certainty in it and not a shadow of doubt. When your soul was created, which was long before you were even born, Allah Swt knew with absolute certainty each and every decision you will make your entire life, there is not doubt in it what so ever. Whether you will accept Islam, whether you will choose to eat a burger over chiken tikka, everything is in Allah Swt absolute knowledge. Your every choice and your every decsision is already known, whether you will choose to live with Imaan or die with Kufr is in the absolute knowledge of Allah without a shadow of doubt. So in a way your final destination of heaven or hell is already known to Allah Swt based on your decisions throughout you life. So when you are born you are already predestined for heaven or hell. Allah Swt even mentions in the quran the majority of them will not believe, coz he already knows this in his infinite wisdom.

Now the kuffaar's claim of not being punished due to being predestined to hell is fruitless, they made the decision not to follow, they were not forced by some supernatural force. Then another question is raised, why go through this whole process of coming to this world and then being either rewarded or punished right??? Why not just take the souls that don't believe and throw them into the fire and those who will put them into paradise??

Well, affirmation is what is required. That is all we are here in this world to do. Affirm by actually doing, thats all. In the example I gave earlier, you forbid you child from eating your chocolates, you knew he was going to eat it when you left the house, but could you have whipped him before he actually did it????

No ofcourse not, you cannot punish someone purely on intent, the crime has to be perpertrated first before punishment is meted out. Subhanallah, this is also the mercy of Allah Swt. May he guide us all. Ameen.

I hope this was of assistance to you.

[NowFloabDow]

Jazakum Allahu Khairan, I can understand it better now.. so free will exists in humans, though it still depends on God? right? so I guess we don't have a total free will but we neither can say that we are totally bounded, right? our religion is not like Calvinism, isn't it?

so I guess our intentions are from us? or they either depends on God? maybe I am making too many questions.. sometimes I am afraid that it isn't fair to pretend to know everything!

Thank you all!

[bromgeksan]

Jazakum Allahu Khairan, I can understand it better now.. so free will exists in humans, though it still depends on God? right? so I guess we don't have a total free will but we neither can say that we are totally bounded, right? our religion is not like Calvinism, isn't it?

Thank you all!

In some senses it is like Calvanism, in that we are at the Mercy of our Lords will. However, Islam is the perfect Deen, so is balanced. So we are not nihilistic, we believe free will is a gift, and are positive about the human spirit. Calvanism assumes a negative position on fitrah.

You could probably pick out some tenants and theology of every modal form of worship, or every religion and you would find Islam has dealt with or incorporates that concept, yet Subhanallah through the blessings of Muhammad peace be upon, and the sahaabah and the ulema and awliya, we have a more rational and balanced understanding.

Thats what i found anyway.

so I guess our intentions are from us? or they either depends on God? maybe I am making too many questions.. sometimes I am afraid that it isn't fair to pretend to know everything! Yes from us. Thats the gift we have above animals. Our intentions CAN be to divert from our orginal fitrah (nature we were born upon).

A monkey will always behave like a monkey. A monkey cant decide to behave like a dog or a cat.
A man can decide to behave like a monkey, cat or dog.

The thing that depends on God is Qadr, Divine Predestination. So we make our intention, do the acts (our free will) and the consequence is Qadr of Allah. So when we throw a ball in the air, its the Qadr of Allah that he created gravity, so the ball comes down to our hands.

In some senses (maybe this is where Calvanism is relevant) EVERYTHING is Allahs will, beacause to act, Allah has Created our thoughts, our will, our mouths, our limbs, heart, brain - all the tools we require to think and act.

When we do bad things, the Qadr of Allah maybe to eventually punish, or to lead us to Repentence and forgive us. But only Allah knows.


Its good to keep asking questions. Dont ever stop.

Salaam

[Evoncalabbalo]

The issue of predestination is a philosophical conundrum as well and it leads to some perplexing questions which can only be sorted out through belief in the Almighty. So why should one feel that he has a free will when everything around us is so fixed? This fixation encompasses each and everything and their is no exception to that. The earth revolves around the sun through a constant speed and it can not be altered by a fragment of a second. The trees around us are made of hydrocarbons and nothing other than hydrocarbons can form the trees. The force of gravity acts in downward direction with a magnitude of 9.8 m/s2 and it can not be any other way around. So we live in a fixed universe. Liver produces bile and stomach produces Gastric. None of these can be the other way around , none of these can be different and none of these realities can have alternate descriptions.

The only thing which assures a human being to be a special enough to be out of this fixation is his free will. We intend to do something and execute our intentions in a free way. This free will seems to be random enough to transcend the orderly fixation around us. However , deep down this free will is just an illusion and religion has nothing to do with this illusion. Suppose there is a person who freely wills to go for a bank robbery. He has freely intended to do so and it seems that due to this free intention , the person is out of the game of fixation. However , their is a deep disciplined line of cause and effect governing the intention of this person. This man decided to go for a robbery as he saw his daughter weeping. His daughter was weeping because she could not buy her desired cell phone. The thought of that desired cell phone came into the mind of his daughter only when she saw that cell phone in the hands of her friend.her friend thought of buying that cell phone only when she saw it in an add on TV. Her friend has bought that cell phone because her father could pay for. Her father could pay for it because he was wealthy enough. He was wealthy enough because his parents had properly educated him in the right discipline. His parents had properly educated him because they had attended some good educational seminars about which a friend of them had informed them............. one can add much to it.

So the person who apparently seems to have a free will to intend for a robbery is just a participant in a chain of cause and effect. It was already fixed somewhere in the distant past and he did not have any option/choice in that. His free will is just an illusion. If it is so then whats the way out? The only way out is to believe that all the good and bad comes from the Almighty. He is just and he knows how much justly have i used the amount of my intention in which i am free. He knows how much i deserve and accordingly i become a participant in a good or bad chain of cause and effect.

Your creating a materialist narrative of freewill that is filled with errors.

- True nature moves in directed way, yet we see undirectedness in Quantum mechanics.
- True nature you see moves in a directed way, but your soul is of a quality different from the material object you see and hence to project it onto the soul is also a error.
- True when a person makes a decision he has several issues that are fixated around him from past history, yet that does not mean his freewill was absent in the past history. Moreover, Freewill has to by neccssity operate on fixated things otherwise its impossible to make a decision if everything is just shifting around in fluidity and no directedness. In other words,there has to be some level of fixity in order for a person to rationally conceive the world around him and make a decision hence forth. In order to answer a question the question has to be fixed and not something that randomly shuffles every second. So the whole casuality thing you bring means nothing and implies nothing and is based on borrowing pseudo scientific materialist dilemmas..

Freewill is not a illusion. Its intuition and pre-inbuilt and known from birth, just as was the intuitive ability to see and hear. Calling it a illusion is self refuting and implies your comment itself is a illusion. Its also absurd for how could a person with no freewill even think about freewill ? Its because you taste freewill that you are capable of questioning it and conceptualize it.


So freewill is intuitive knowledge and impossible to reject. We also learn from revelation that pre-destination is true. And we also know from revelation that we are held accountable for our actions. There are several ways in which compatibility between them was explained by scholars whoch i will not go into.

For a laymen its enough to accept it and leave it details to Allah. A laymen is born with freewill and there is no reason for him to suddenly reject it as an illusion. With that inborn free will the laymen is made accountable for his actions by Allah. At the same time we are to believe in Qadr and hence always remind yourself of Allah's Supreme Will and nothing happens without Allah's Supreme Will and therefore acknowledge your ultimate servitude and humility towards Allah.

[KernJetenue]

Your creating a materialist narrative of freewill that is filled with errors.

- True nature moves in directed way, yet we see undirectedness in Quantum mechanics.
- True nature you see moves in a directed way, but your soul is of a quality different from the material object you see and hence to project it onto the soul is also a error.
- True when a person makes a decision he has several issues that are fixated around him from past history, yet that does not mean his freewill was absent in the past history. Moreover, Freewill has to by neccssity operate on fixated things otherwise its impossible to make a decision if everything is just shifting around in fluidity and no directedness. In other words,there has to be some level of fixity in order for a person to rationally conceive the world around him and make a decision hence forth. In order to answer a question the question has to be fixed and not something that randomly shuffles every second. So the whole casuality thing you bring means nothing and implies nothing and is based on borrowing pseudo scientific materialist dilemmas..

Freewill is not a illusion. Its intuition and pre-inbuilt and known from birth, just as was the intuitive ability to see and hear. Calling it a illusion is self refuting and implies your comment itself is a illusion. Its also absurd for how could a person with no freewill even think about freewill ? Its because you taste freewill that you are capable of questioning it and conceptualize it.


So freewill is intuitive knowledge and impossible to reject. We also learn from revelation that pre-destination is true. And we also know from revelation that we are held accountable for our actions. There are several ways in which compatibility between them was explained by scholars whoch i will not go into.

For a laymen its enough to accept it and leave it details to Allah. A laymen is born with freewill and there is no reason for him to suddenly reject it as an illusion. With that inborn free will the laymen is made accountable for his actions by Allah. At the same time we are to believe in Qadr and hence always remind yourself of Allah's Supreme Will and nothing happens without Allah's Supreme Will and therefore acknowledge your ultimate servitude and humility towards Allah.

First of all it is not a pseudo scientific materialistic dilemma, Science speaks of genetic determinism not social causation based determinism. This dilemma,as i clarified in the beginning is not purely related to Islam or any other religion but has long been discussed in non religious philosophical literature. I don't think so that the whole of human intention and free will is an illusion , in some aspects we are free and that is known to Allah.

Infact you have borrowed a pseudo scientific notion of the age ie the relation between Quantum physics and free will. I wonder how the in-determinism at quantum level somehow reveals the presence of free will? Though it has become a part of the philosophical narrative in the west but there is no clarity in it. If the randomness of reality at subatomic level show that there is "undirectedness" then how about this that tomorrow string theory starts working and the quantum disorder become symmetrical with the Newtonian/Einstein determinism?

As far as the point regarding the self refutation of the declaration of free will then yes apparently it seems to be self referentially incoherent.But i think deep down it does not work as well. If a person negates free will and endorses sheer determinism in a book then he can be asked "Were you determined to write against free will?" and if he says yes i was then whats next? Whats the next question going to be? The only objection left after this is to ask him "if you were already destined to do it , what good is your argument?" and in response he shakes his head and says "All what you have said is just explains that my argument is contrived and not natural , does it prove that my argument is wrong?" Whats next?

[arerrurrY]

Good explanation, it kind of illustrates as well how dependent we are on Allah for our success in this life and the next, imagine we are destined for hell, yet at this moment in time Allah feeds me, gives me air to breath, gives me everything I need for my happiness in my life, despite my denial of Him....Why would anyone move away from His Door and deny Him when we have everything to gain by submitting to Him. Truly we would submit and affirm the truth as undeniable.

Wasalam,

No problems sister, come, let me explain to you with the very little knowledge that I have and my understanding of predestination in very laymans terms.


You do believe that Allah Swt has the knowledge of all things, that is from the beginning of time right to the end of time, don't you??? This is the crux of understanding predestination.

Let me give you an example and how people misunderstand it, the kuffar ask why will they be punished for their deeds when it was predestined for them to disbelieve??

Say you have a child, he just loves chocolates, you know very well he loves chocolates and any opportunity he gets to eat them he will eat them, you just know him too well.

One day you buy some nice swiss chocolotes its for a special occassion so you tell your child not to eat them, then suddenly you get a call and need to go somewhere in a hurry, so you tell your child DON'T EAT the chocolates. You know the moment you step out of that house he's gonna have a ball of a time, he is gonna eat the chocoloates.

Then when you get home it's no surprise to you, he ate the chocolates even though you told him not to. Now think of the knowledge of Allah Swt, you may still have some element of doubt on whether your child will eat the chocolates or not right?? Allah's knowledge is complete, their is absolute certainty in it and not a shadow of doubt. When your soul was created, which was long before you were even born, Allah Swt knew with absolute certainty each and every decision you will make your entire life, there is not doubt in it what so ever. Whether you will accept Islam, whether you will choose to eat a burger over chiken tikka, everything is in Allah Swt absolute knowledge. Your every choice and your every decsision is already known, whether you will choose to live with Imaan or die with Kufr is in the absolute knowledge of Allah without a shadow of doubt. So in a way your final destination of heaven or hell is already known to Allah Swt based on your decisions throughout you life. So when you are born you are already predestined for heaven or hell. Allah Swt even mentions in the quran the majority of them will not believe, coz he already knows this in his infinite wisdom.

Now the kuffaar's claim of not being punished due to being predestined to hell is fruitless, they made the decision not to follow, they were not forced by some supernatural force. Then another question is raised, why go through this whole process of coming to this world and then being either rewarded or punished right??? Why not just take the souls that don't believe and throw them into the fire and those who will put them into paradise??

Well, affirmation is what is required. That is all we are here in this world to do. Affirm by actually doing, thats all. In the example I gave earlier, you forbid you child from eating your chocolates, you knew he was going to eat it when you left the house, but could you have whipped him before he actually did it????

No ofcourse not, you cannot punish someone purely on intent, the crime has to be perpertrated first before punishment is meted out. Subhanallah, this is also the mercy of Allah Swt. May he guide us all. Ameen.

I hope this was of assistance to you.

[serius_06]

First of all it is not a pseudo scientific materialistic dilemma, Science speaks of genetic determinism not social causation based determinism. This dilemma,as i clarified in the beginning is not purely related to Islam or any other religion but has long been discussed in non religious philosophical literature. I don't think so that the whole of human intention and free will is an illusion , in some aspects we are free and that is known to Allah.

Infact you have borrowed a pseudo scientific notion of the age ie the relation between Quantum physics and free will. I wonder how the in-determinism at quantum level somehow reveals the presence of free will? Though it has become a part of the philosophical narrative in the west but there is no clarity in it. If the randomness of reality at subatomic level show that there is "undirectedness" then how about this that tomorrow string theory starts working and the quantum disorder become symmetrical with the Newtonian/Einstein determinism?

As far as the point regarding the self refutation of the declaration of free will then yes apparently it seems to be self referentially incoherent.But i think deep down it does not work as well. If a person negates free will and endorses sheer determinism in a book then he can be asked "Were you determined to write against free will?" and if he says yes i was then whats next? Whats the next question going to be? The only objection left after this is to ask him "if you were already destined to do it , what good is your argument?" and in response he shakes his head and says "All what you have said is just explains that my argument is contrived and not natural , does it prove that my argument is wrong?" Whats next?

Obviously I borrowed it as a response to the casuality dilemma you borrowed. Just throwing one theory against another. At the end of the day the scientific theorys of today do not rest on absolute determinism as in the case of QM, which falsifies the premise you put up.

The then "what if" questions are mere hypothetical and can be responded by imagining a 100 other "what if" scenarios.

Even if you say that you were determined to speak against freewill, the truth of statement is not yet established since determination implies you were forced to say so. So if you havent established the truth of the statement then you can't say you were forced to say so, which rests upon the truthness of your statement. Your goal is to prove determination. You instead presume determination along the way.

Secondly my point was on regards to tasting freewill. When you speak about freewill, we have to know what freewill is in the first place. Now it is because we have tasted freewill that we know it. Its impossible that you could be forced and yet be aware of what exactly freewill is. So the mere fact that we discuss freewill knowingly is proof of its existance because a forced object would not be aware of what exactly freewill is. Just as a blind man wouldnt know color until he tasted color similarly a forced man wouldnt know freewill until he tasted freewill.

[duminyricky]

Obviously I borrowed it as a response to the casuality dilemma you borrowed. Just throwing one theory against another. At the end of the day the scientific theorys of today do not rest on absolute determinism as in the case of QM, which falsifies the premise you put up.

The then "what if" questions are mere hypothetical and can be responded by imagining a 100 other "what if" scenarios.

Even if you say that you were determined to speak against freewill, the truth of statement is not yet established since determination implies you were forced to say so. So if you havent established the truth of the statement then you can't say you were forced to say so, which rests upon the truthness of your statement. Your goal is to prove determination. You instead presume determination along the way.

Secondly my point was on regards to tasting freewill. When you speak about freewill, we have to know what freewill is in the first place. Now it is because we have tasted freewill that we know it. Its impossible that you could be forced and yet be aware of what exactly freewill is. So the mere fact that we discuss freewill knowingly is proof of its existance because a forced object would not be aware of what exactly freewill is. Just as a blind man wouldnt know color until he tasted color similarly a forced man wouldnt know freewill until he tasted freewill.

I have not made an appeal to any probabilistic scientific claim , rather i have made an appeal to the established scientific facts for which there can be no alternate description. QM does not falsify anything that i have said as you are yet to show a clear link between free will and QM. Keep it in mind that the non-locality in QM can show some ultimate fixation negating free will at all. If you mentioned QM to show that reality may have alternate description or it may have randomness then that does not work. There is no unanimity between the physicists about the status of randomness and probabilistic description of reality in QM that it is something ultimate or this disorder have an order deep down. A better option in the favor of alternate description of reality would have been to click the concept of possible worlds in modal logic. That would have made sense.

Your second objection does not work as well. It might be true that due to determinism i might not be able established the fact of the statement in which i deny free will but that does not mean that i have not established the truth. It is the genetic fallacy , trying to falsify a statement by explaining away its origins.

[CIAFreeAgent]

My favourite quote in this context is from Imam Ibn-e-Taimiyyah (RA). He said that logic is of no use for a person who is not smart and a smart person does not need it.

[Golotop]

I have not made an appeal to any probabilistic scientific claim , rather i have made an appeal to the established scientific facts for which there can be no alternate description. QM does not falsify anything that i have said as you are yet to show a clear link between free will and QM. Keep it in mind that the non-locality in QM can show some ultimate fixation negating free will at all. If you mentioned QM to show that reality may have alternate description or it may have randomness then that does not work. There is no unanimity between the physicists about the status of randomness and probabilistic description of reality in QM that it is something ultimate or this disorder have an order deep down. A better option in the favor of alternate description of reality would have been to click the concept of possible worlds in modal logic. That would have made sense.

Your second objection does not work as well. It might be true that due to determinism i might not be able established the fact of the statement in which i deny free will but that does not mean that i have not established the truth. It is the genetic fallacy , trying to falsify a statement by explaining away its origins.

Not really. What you say are mere theoretical inferences which are probabilistic. They see nature working in a directed pattern and they come up with these theoretical claims which are not proved by itself.
While the premise upon which they built their argument is flawed by itself as QM is found as undirected. Now you could come up with various "what if" scenarios in QM not being directed and so can anyone else come up with various "what if" scenarios for possible undirected-ness in macro level of nature. All i did was throw one theory against another to break down the argument from their start. The ijma of scientists are just ijma upon a probabilistic inference just as is their ijma on evolution theory. Means nothing.

Moreover, being directed does not mean there can be no influence of freewill. A clock is directed as it works, yet a being can adjust its time and direction of rotation and so forth from freewill. Hence in similar case freewill can adjust different aspects of a directed nature. Indeed material existences are all from the category of possibilities and not necessities. The law of nature are mere one possibility and not a necessity. So the direction of nature is just possibility and rationally capable of going in other directions. Just because certain aspects of nature appear to always remain in the same one directed manner there is no reason to apply that one directed-ness to everything of nature and claim it impossible to direct it otherwise. Just because you are incapable of rotating the sun in the other direction, doesn't mean you can't rotate you hand in any of the directions. So there are plenty of false generalizations being made by the argument you put forth.

But its not required to get into a theory war to refute it, as the soul does not belong to the same category of material object they study in the first place. Hence it is a materialist fallacy applying material standards to something other than it.

Moreover, as i said, free will is knowledge from intuition. We are born with it. We experience it. To reject it is equivalent to a man who has vision and hearing, but keeps saying that he is blind and deaf.

And i don't see a fallacy in the argument since the truth of the argument you make is dependent on the origin. You started by claiming its all a illusion and hence automatically implies that what you say by yourself is also merely an illusion. The argument of illusion you used was to reject the intuitive knowledge but instead goes onto to refute your argument by itself as an illusion too.

As for the forced issue, it implies you are forced to make statements rejecting freewill, therefore all the theory's and arguments you make was forced. I'm also forced to make the statement defending freewill. So everything is forced and everybody is forced. And we are incapable of knowing the truth including the idea that we are forced in the first place.

i,.e., when you say : "Im forced when i say im forced for so and so reasons."
Then it implies the so and so reasons you gave was forced too. So how do you know its true ? You were merely forced to accept the reasons as true. So then you don't know the truth of the reasoning as you were forced to see it as true and hence the statement invalidates itself as your incapable of knowing if its true. If you and me are incapable of knowing then our discussion and assertions made here is futile and nothing is established, as the basis of knowing, rational, logic is being negated by it and thereby self refuting.

In short, as someone else put it, according to materialism, whatever you just said now and believe is a mere cause of big bang.

[L0KoxewQ]

Ok. I have another question, can the Qadr be changed? Qadr is desteny righ? so if I ask Allah " Oh Allah, if my desteny is such and such please change it, make me such and such" or " Oh Allah if you see that in my future I will become a kafir (may Allah protect me from this), please change my future" or "Allah if I am predestined to hell, please change my predestination, make me one of those from paradise" ?

is it allowed to make dua in this way?

and I've heard that if someone sins or if someone does good deeds it can change the Qadr, and also duas can change Qadr.. but there's something that doesn't convince me in this.. don't know what.. that's why I said that I am not so claver to understand everything.. may Allah forgive my ignorance! amin..

[Rememavotscam]

"Nothing can change the Divine Decree except dua." - Jami' Al-Tirmidhi

Taqdeer is Pre-destiny; Qadaa is Allah's foreknowledge of events prior to occurence; Qadr is Allah's bringing into existence those events in accordance to His Knowledge.

However, the dua itself is pre-destined. It can be understood that, so and so will at a specific time make this XYZ dua which will result in the change of his taqdeer. Even though the taqdeer did change due to his Dua, but the whole thing itself was pre-destined to happen.

Wahb ibn Munabbih (rahmatullah alayhi, who was amongst the Tabi'een) said, "I looked into the matter of qadar, and I was bewildered. I looked into it again, and I was still bewildered. I then concluded that the most knowledgeable of people regarding qadar are those who keep the farthest away from it, and the most ignorant of people regarding qadar are those who talk most about it."

The above quote is supported by the hadith:
"When destiny is discussed, restrain yourself from it." - Tabarani.

Also, one should have the courage to accept things that are not understandable to oneself. As Allah states, "And of knowledge you have been given but little" (17:85)

And Allah knows best.

Taken from askimam.org by Mufti Ebrahim Desai DB