DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - Question regarding Fatima's death and Twelve Imams

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Hi,

I am a new convert to Islam and I have been doing extensive research in the two main sects of Islam. I am in touch with a few knowledgeable scholars, but I am looking to get vast opinions and thoughts from other brothers too.

Sadly many scholars don't know mush about Twelver Shiasm simply because it is a small deviant sect and they haven't looked into it much, although there are many exceptions as we know some scholars who have extensive knowledge of Shiasm and how to refute their allegations and lies, the Shia attribute many lies to some of the descendants of the Prophet (SAWS) and you must have asked yourself why are 90% of the Muslims not Twelver Shia... why has these type of sects remained a minority throughout 1400 years, the answer is that Twelver Shiasm like many other small sects never really makes sense and most of their arguments and proofs are extremely weak, they have a couple of books with plenty of fabricated reports that are unconvincing and their authenticity is problematic... but where does the danger lie? the danger lies in that they have many websites, they have many preachers working hard to spread Shia material online to trap new converts and ignorant laypeople, this is where we come in, by the grace of Allah we have researched Shiasm and can show the reality of their claims and beliefs and uncover them so that no one may fall victim to the propaganda.

Another of their numerous big problems, is that they are followers of their desires, the average Muslims read the books of religion and believe in whatever we read in them, whereas the Twelver Shia sect already have a set of beliefs and they look in the books of religion for whatever can support these beliefs and adopt it, whatever contradicts their beliefs they abandon it... for example, they will quote a Hadith from "Sahih al-Bukhari" in praise of `Ali (ra), then they will say "Look this proves that `Ali is the best" so you reply to them with another Hadith from the same book "Sahih al-Bukhari" which proves that Abu Bakr (ra) is better and they will outright reject it, this is what we mean by followers of desires, if the religious text agrees with their beliefs they adopt it even if it's a fabricated lie, otherwise they reject it even if it's authentic!!

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One of the key things that divided the two sects is the rightful successors to the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). When it comes to the death of Fatima many Sunnis tend to short cut around the question. I have read and watched all this is in Sunni Hadith books. I have researched myself some of the books mentioned where Umar was responsible for her death. When I mean short cuts, they throw counter questions like i.e. why did he name his kids after the first 3 Khalifahs, why didn’t the other companions sentence Umar to death.

The key difference is the following,

average Muslims say that `Ali (ra) is a rightful successor because of his merit and piety and wisdom and service to Islam, but they also say the three companions before him are also rightful successors because of their merit and piety and wisdom and service to Islam. On the other hand the Twelver Shia claim that `Ali (ra) was divinely appointed by God, he is infallible and cannot make mistakes, and that the three before him are evil usurpers and thieves and all those who folow them are condemned to hell fire.

As for Shia stories and rumors, first of all you should know that Sunni Muslims are the MAIN BODY of Islam, in our books we have narrations by various Shia sects, and Nawasib and Khawarij and Jahmiyyah and Mu`tazillah and many other sects, so obviously you'll find Shia stories recorded in our books as we have academic scholars who preserved and recorded ALL narrations .... but are these narrations of `Umar (ra) killing her authentic? the answer is NO, do they contradict with plenty of authentic reports? the answer is YES.

An example is that `Umar (ra) married the daughter of Fatima (ra), he simply asked for her hand and `Ali (ra) gave her to him, this is an authentic report that even the twelver Shia can't deny, so how can we make sense of the weak fabrications saying that he killed her and beat up her husband with the authentic reports saying `Umar (ra) asked for her daughter's hand out of love and married her and had children?

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Can someone clarify if these saying in the VARIOUS scriptures are all fiction, if so, why are these documented in so many books of history?

Also, the question of the Twelve Imams, this is also in Sunni histories, but clearly neglected from a Shia point of view.

In Islam learn this as a general rule, there are famous rumors quoted by many historians and this does not hold any weight or authority unless it is AUTHENTIC, so to simplify it, it's Quality not Quantity, as there were loads of liars in these past 1400 years and many with political and religious agendas.

Also note that these "numerous reports" are all self contradicting, and I wrote an article on this proving that they weren't very good liars since each report contradicts the other (regardless of authenticity of chains of transmission).

This small chart I drew once would help you inshaAllah,

http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/q...risonChart.jpg

QUESTION: Have you read books on the lives of the first three Caliphs and successors of the Prophet (SAWS)? if not we can provide you with some free ones from online.