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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #21
HcMkOKiz

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Ml. Ilyas said that their souls are in jannah, yes, but their bodies cannot be considered dead, either. Otherwise, what is the difference between any regular person who dies and a shaheed?
I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree with Mr. M.Ilyaas. seeing as though many of the Mufasireen of the past have said that their bodies are dead, while their souls are alive.

I already told you the difference, and it was in the statement of of al-Qurtubi in that the difference between a shaheed and a non shaheed Mumin is that one is given rizq by Allah, and they are alive in jannah in a way different than those who weren't given the same reward...

A regular person that dies, regardless of whether he is a shaheed or not has the windows of jannah or jahannam open into his grave. In order to feel such things, the soul has to be alive - this is the life of barzakh. Right but are they all birds flying around jannah, given rizq specifically told to them by Allah?

And the ayah I posed does indicate that it is not the same as the life of the hereafter since everyone of us, when we die, are alive in barzakh but we have broken our bond with this world completely. When a shaheed or a nabi dies, they are still considered alive but we cannot tell or say that they are dead.
Well some of the greatest ulama to exist, and those specialized in tafseer have disagreed with you.

And please if you have anyone from among the ulama of the past who have said that it's not permissible to say that the Prophet is dead (meaning in dunya) please come forward with your proof.

What I've heard from many Ahle Hadees is that the shuhada are dead and the anbiya عليهم السلام are dead - نعوذ با الله من ذلك. So Al-Qurtubi is Ahle Hadees?

We cannot make such statements as it is against the Qur'an's commandment. No one denies that the shuhada or the anbiya عليهم السلام can die or can be killed. But their dying or being killed does not lead to death. Their bodies are not dead, but we cannot perceive this - as the Qur'an states ولكن لا تشعرون. So death does not equal death? Dying does not mean death? I'm lost, it's as if you can use your intellect all day long when it comes to the attributes of Allah, but the moment something goes against what one of your scholars say even though it makes absolutely no sense, doesn't agree with the scholars of tafseer (thus far) and is against other verses/ahadith, you completely rid yourself of common sense.

You are saying that they are dead, but not dead... Or rather they died, but didn't die... Does that mean they are alive in the Dunya sense?


Another point was brought up that our souls cannot engage in prayer (this was in a different video). Rasoolullah saw Musa praying in his grave, providing more proof that he was alive in his grave. Are you saying the Prophets are physically alive, living, eating, sleeping, etc in their grave? or what? If they were not really going to die, what's the point of getting into the grave, why not just have them stay in their rooms forever, or be with us forever? Why did the Prophet suffer on his death bed and have sakhratul mawt, if he wasn't going to be maat?

Is this not something from 'ilm al-ghayb that we shouldn't delve into? Isn't this something Mutaashabih, in which Allah said:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #22
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Their bodies are dead, their souls are alive. The only reason salafees are obsessed over this is to put takfir on Muslims. If the dead have no connection with the grave, then salafees should stop greeting the dead when they visit a grave.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #23
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The dying of anbiya عليهم السلام and the shuhada is not the same as our dying. When we die, our bodies are completely dead. They decay and are absorbed. Our souls remain alive and our bond is broken with this world. Our souls feel pleasure or pain when our bodies are dead in the graves.

When the shuhada and the anbiya عليهم السلام die, their dying does not result in a dead body. Their body is still alive but we cannot sense this.

Rizq is something that our bodies require for sustenance. If we don't eat, our bodies decay and die. Our souls do not. So, if rizq is being provided to the shuhada, that means their bodies are not dead either. The souls of the shuhada are in jannah. The bodies of the shuhada are still living and the sustenance of the bodies is provided for. The same goes for the anbiya عليهم السلام. When you're quoting the tafseer of al-Qurtubi, there is no definitive statement made about whether their bodies are dead or not. If spiritual rizq is what is implied, then even the one who was not martyred or was not a nabi is provided spiritual rizq.

What the Ahle Hadees and Mamatis believe is that the anbiya عليهم السلام and the shuhada are dead in their graves, no ifs, ands or buts. Can you prove from the major ulama of the past that the prophets are dead in their graves?

This distinction between whether the bodies are dead or alive has to be made because we believe that Rasoolullah can hear us when we are near his grave.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #24
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The dying of anbiya عليهم السلام and the shuhada is not the same as our dying. When we die, our bodies are completely dead. They decay and are absorbed. Our souls remain alive and our bond is broken with this world. Our souls feel pleasure or pain when our bodies are dead in the graves.

When the shuhada and the anbiya عليهم السلام die, their dying does not result in a dead body. Their body is still alive but we cannot sense this.

Rizq is something that our bodies require for sustenance. If we don't eat, our bodies decay and die. Our souls do not. So, if rizq is being provided to the shuhada, that means their bodies are not dead either. The souls of the shuhada are in jannah. The bodies of the shuhada are still living and the sustenance of the bodies is provided for. The same goes for the anbiya عليهم السلام. When you're quoting the tafseer of al-Qurtubi, there is no definitive statement made about whether their bodies are dead or not. If spiritual rizq is what is implied, then even the one who was not martyred or was not a nabi is provided spiritual rizq.

What the Ahle Hadees and Mamatis believe is that the anbiya عليهم السلام and the shuhada are dead in their graves, no ifs, ands or buts. Can you prove from the major ulama of the past that the prophets are dead in their graves?

This distinction between whether the bodies are dead or alive has to be made because we believe that Rasoolullah can hear us when we are near his grave.
You can't consider someone a disbeliever based on this... This is insane. I don't have to do research to know that you can't consider someone a disbeliever based on this... You are so obsessed with making everybody a disbeliever... This is bidah, because this is not part of the sunnah of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) to make everybody who has affirm the shahadah a disbeliever....

This is not mentioned in any of the basic text on aqida...It is not even mentioned in the Jawharat tawhid... or Aqida Nasafi or Aqidah Tahawi, or Fiqh Akbar... So how can it be required that everyone believes this??? I can assure you this is not something that is necessarily known to be part of the religion....

This is the first time I have ever heard of it... And I have studied several texts in aqidah.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #25
intisgunkas

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This distinction between whether the bodies are dead or alive has to be made because we believe that Rasoolullah can hear us when we are near his grave.
I'm not "ahle hadees" but I'm Salafi (saudi), and what you said about bodies/dead is almost the same thing we believe, so it seems it's only iktilaaf lafdhi...

Yes we say they are dead, because technically they died, but they are also alive.... Do we believe their life is the SAME as their life before death (like eating, sleeping, drinking)? No, but we do believe they have a life and we also believe their bodies have not decomposed.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #26
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What does this Shiekh does when he goes for Hajj/Umrah? This sounds weird. This sort of logic/bayaans are going to make people miss the Salaah while in Haram. Another point is how come other Deobandi Shiekhs have no issue praying behind Imam of Haram? I know of a lot of Deobandi Shiekhs and I never heard anyone mention this to anyone going on Hajj.

This is more in line with Barelwis, I know of a Barelwi family who was deprived of praying in Haram because their Barelwi Shiekh told them not to pray behind Imam of Haram, so this whole family used to pray at their room instead of praying in Haram. I would say these folks were just depriving themselves of the Barakah.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #27
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I wish we left those controversies back in the country and focus on more important things. Sigh.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #28
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Maulana Ilyas Ghumman is speaking about the Mamatis. I don't know why the Imams of the Haram are implicated
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #29
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I'm not "ahle hadees" but I'm Salafi (saudi), and what you said about bodies/dead is almost the same thing we believe, so it seems it's only iktilaaf lafdhi...

Yes we say they are dead, because technically they died, but they are also alive.... Do we believe their life is the SAME as their life before death (like eating, sleeping, drinking)? No, but we do believe they have a life and we also believe their bodies have not decomposed.
Then we have a difference. What the Ahle Hadees and the Mamatis will have you believe is that the anbiya عليهم السلام are dead in their graves and anyone who believes otherwise is a mubtadi' or a mushrik.

What does this Shiekh does when he goes for Hajj/Umrah? This sounds weird. This sort of logic/bayaans are going to make people miss the Salaah while in Haram. Another point is how come other Deobandi Shiekhs have no issue praying behind Imam of Haram? I know of a lot of Deobandi Shiekhs and I never heard anyone mention this to anyone going on Hajj.

This is more in line with Barelwis, I know of a Barelwi family who was deprived of praying in Haram because their Barelwi Shiekh told them not to pray behind Imam of Haram, so this whole family used to pray at their room instead of praying in Haram. I would say these folks were just depriving themselves of the Barakah. Ml. Ilyas Ghuman does pray behind Saudi imams and he makes them distinct from the Ahle Hadees and la madhhabis but for reasons of fiqh. In this lecture, he was talking about Mamatis and I am asking if he has an issue with the Mamatis, why is there no issue with the Saudi imams? Apparently, the Saudi Salafis do not hold identical beliefs as the Mamatis.

Maulana Ilyas Ghumman is speaking about the Mamatis. I don't know why the Imams of the Haram are implicated No one is being implicated in anything since Ml. Ilyas Ghuman does pray behind the imams of he ka'ba and he does not have any issues with the Arab Hanabilah.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #30
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i would suggest this thread be moved to the aqeedah section
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #31
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This is more in line with Barelwis, I know of a Barelwi family who was deprived of praying in Haram because their Barelwi Shiekh told them not to pray behind Imam of Haram, so this whole family used to pray at their room instead of praying in Haram. I would say these folks were just depriving themselves of the Barakah.
This is all barelvis are good at, making takfeer of everyone who differs from them, this means ahle sunnah wa jammat is a small fiqra in a small region in pakistan/india in their heads. This is what people like Irfan Shah are famous for, all of the barelvi ulema heavily emphasise that the saudis are kaffirs and it is haram to pray behind them. It should also be made abvious that not all people who say celebrate mawlid in the subcontinent are barelvis.

People should realise there are differences among muslims and it would be hard to do takfeer on anyone group.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #32
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You can't consider someone a disbeliever based on this... This is insane. I don't have to do research to know that you can't consider someone a disbeliever based on this... You are so obsessed with making everybody a disbeliever... This is bidah, because this is not part of the sunnah of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) to make everybody who has affirm the shahadah a disbeliever....

This is not mentioned in any of the basic text on aqida...It is not even mentioned in the Jawharat tawhid... or Aqida Nasafi or Aqidah Tahawi, or Fiqh Akbar... So how can it be required that everyone believes this??? I can assure you this is not something that is necessarily known to be part of the religion....

This is the first time I have ever heard of it... And I have studied several texts in aqidah.
Exactly! This is a very hairsplitting kind of thing. I myself have no idea how to answer if someone asked about this matter, nor anyone around me. I didn't know it was even an issue. So I can't become imam in prayer?
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #33
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Exactly! This is a very hairsplitting kind of thing. I myself have no idea how to answer if someone asked about this matter, nor anyone around me. I didn't know it was even an issue. So I can't become imam in prayer?


This is more along the lines of fussaq being disallowed from leading prayers. The Mamaatis are at best seen as fussaaq and Ahlul bid'ah. I don't think there is a fatwa of kufr upon the Mamatis.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #34
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This is more along the lines of fussaq being disallowed from leading prayers. The Mamaatis are at best seen as fussaaq and Ahlul bid'ah. I don't think there is a fatwa of kufr upon the Mamatis.
bro. abdul wahhab you should have addressed this quetion to a scholor who knows about this mamati situation. now people who were unaware of this fitna will be confused. This is a bigger topic then it seems it is. Where are you from- maybe i can direct u to a scholor?
please dont take any offence at what i said.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #35
Galinastva

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http://www.alittehaad.org
this is a website mainly dedicated to this subject, you may find useful contact no. and links on it. it is mainly in urdu as the website is run from pakistan.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #36
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bro. abdul wahhab you should have addressed this quetion to a scholor who knows about this mamati situation. now people who were unaware of this fitna will be confused. This is a bigger topic then it seems it is. Where are you from- maybe i can direct u to a scholor?
please dont take any offence at what i said.


I have never met a Mamati in real life nor do I know of any masajid run by the Mamatis in my city so this issue shouldn't affect me, . I'm in Toronto right now.

I know of that website and use it from time to time.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #37
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Though colonel won't be interested in labeling himself a Mamati but you can read about his stance regarding the life of Sayyidna Muhammad sws after death here , which is in line with the mamatis > http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...sufi-justified

For Maulana Younis Naumani Sahib ( I typed it Manzoor Naumani by error) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmfNq...eature=related

For Abdul Hay luKnavi rahimahullah , there is a thread on SF titled as "Was Imam Abdul Hayy Lucknawi a Hayati or Mamati ?". I hope there are references on that thread or i will have to search for it myself then.
Yaar Dr Saheb,

I think that you will get me beat up :- ) I am getting emails about my Aqeedah left, right and center.

I don’t have time to visit and post on this forum but a long time ago someone brought this to my attention and I ignored it.

Now someone much beloved to me has pointed this out to me and FORCED me to get my password reset, logon and to respond. I have no idea what in the world a “Mamati” actually is and the more I read or watch or listen the more confused I get; I think that it’s some sort of tittle-tattle in Pakistan.

Anyways I am no one important to have to justify my Aqeedah, nevertheless it has been on the web-site for over 10 years, same Aqeedah just updated (text) from time to time, simply put:
  1. It is an accepted fact. Everyone agrees that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) passed away from this earthly life.
  2. After death, the life is life of Barzakh
  3. This effect of life (Shuhada, Ambiya etc) is only in regards to Barzakh

http://central-mosque.com/index.php/...-upon-him.html



P.S: Any issues and you can email me on the site.

Dr.ati, can you provide proof to your claims that Mawlana Manzoor Numani, Allama Abdul Hayy Lucknawi and Colonel Hardstone are Mamatis? It would be good if Colonel Hardstone himself confirmed/refuted Dr.ati's claim....
I'm sorry, but I can't see anything substantial from Colonel Hardstone to suggest he is a mamaati. I will let him clarify his own position, rather than relying on speculation or weak deductions from his statements.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #38
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The difference between Mamatis and others is that they don't believe that our Prophet can hear the people near his grave. Some of them even believe that there is no connection between body and soul. This is the TRUE difference between Mamatis and other Deobandi scholars.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #39
Lydiaswingert

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Yaar Dr Saheb,

I think that you will get me beat up :- ) I am getting emails about my Aqeedah left, right and center.

I don’t have time to visit and post on this forum but a long time ago someone brought this to my attention and I ignored it.

Now someone much beloved to me has pointed this out to me and FORCED me to get my password reset, logon and to respond. I have no idea what in the world a “Mamati” actually is and the more I read or watch or listen the more confused I get; I think that it’s some sort of tittle-tattle in Pakistan.

Anyways I am no one important to have to justify my Aqeedah, nevertheless it has been on the web-site for over 10 years, same Aqeedah just updated (text) from time to time, simply put:
  1. It is an accepted fact. Everyone agrees that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) passed away from this earthly life.
  2. After death, the life is life of Barzakh
  3. This effect of life (Shuhada, Ambiya etc) is only in regards to Barzakh

http://central-mosque.com/index.php/...-upon-him.html



P.S: Any issues and you can email me on the site.
well its nice to see u back.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #40
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If you don't mind Colonel saheb what do you do instead of SF posting ? Good to see you back .
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