[br`lorance]

Remember me posting about the neighbor who bred her APBT and one of the litter was mentally unstable so she kept him for fear of what would happen if she gave him away/sold him?

For background: Neighbor, D, has a great APBT female. They got talked into breeding her because "it will calm her down and the pups will go to great homes super fast". Of the 5 pups, one male named Tiger has been seriously mental since he was about 12 weeks old. I suspect FA. The sire, dam and other pups in the litter are fine. Perfectly normal APBT's..very friendly and loving to all. They were all sold or given to people who live in the neighborhood and have been brought back to visit regularly. Cept one, named Roxy Junior, who was hit by a car after door dashing when she was almost 5 months old. Before her death, she was also very friendly and loving.

The whole litter spent a lot of time outside in the front yard from about 3 weeks old til they went to their homes. Many people of all ages would come up and ask to pet them or play with them and every kid on the block was constantly over there including mine. Tons of positive socialization.

Once the first 2 pups went to new homes Tiger started acting strange. He would cower near D when people came over. People he knew and strangers, didn't matter. Then he would bark and growl with his ears flat and tail tucked. He has snapped at a few people, but never kids.

I talked to her and told her my story about getting sued for the rescue dog I had for a whole week biting someone. I told her I thought he was mentally unstable and that I thought he should be put down. She is very attached to him and doesn't want to euth him. So, I thought maybe he could be conditioned to like people. I offered to help and even started bringing bags of treats over to make his experiences with people positive. Even the mail lady started bringing treats with her to help. Nothing has worked. He is fine with the family and the kids who come over often but that's it.

As of last month, he has gone after me more than once, gone after my brothers "whatever" when she was over visiting, gone after an old couple when D's daughter dropped the leash one afternoon and a few other people. Sometimes, he will just sit there like everything is ok and then just lunge. The first time he went for me I was sitting on the porch chatting for over an hour and he was fine. Then he went for my face out of the blue. The second time I was in the house chatting while D cooked and he didn't come near me. Then he was all of a sudden right there, so I ignored him and kept chatting. He lunged and D grabbed him to put him in the crate. I expressed my views again and told her this is serious. He needs to be euth'd or very tightly managed.

He had never been aggressive toward my kids, her kids or the neighbor kids who are regulars over there. With adults, things have gotten so bad with Tiger that when people come over they have to crate him before opening the door.

A couple weeks ago, a kid that has been over a lot during the summer and fall came to visit and did not knock. Just walked right in. Lets call him T. Tiger went for T before anyone realized he was there and he connected with his arm. The only thing that saved T was he was wearing a thick winter coat and that Tiger is still a pup. I think his litter was born 2 weeks before Renee's litter...so that would make him about 8 months old.

Then, when we had that warm snap a little over a week ago, the kids started coming out to play while they could. Tiger snapped at the little girl who lives next door to us and has been a regular there.

These are the first incidents with kids. I hope they are the last, but I doubt it.

The thing is D has 6 kids and they are all very young. The oldest is 10 the youngest is 3. There have been many occasions when Roxy, Lucky, or Bear (APBT, small terrier mix, and Husky) have gotten out
of the house or yard because a kid didn't latch the door or gate or the dog pushed past, but they are friendly and get caught and returned without a problem. Obviously, Tiger is not friendly and this concerns me greatly. First, because my kids are friends with her kids and spend most of the play time over there. D and her family are pretty much the only neighbors I like. Secondly, because he is an APBT and if he does attack someone I do not want people screaming BSL.

I have talked to D about euthing him until I am blue in the face and she just can't stand to do it. Her plan is to manage him, but when spring and summer come unless he is crated 24/7, I can't see him not getting out like the other dogs have so many times.

I don't want to tell my kids they can't play there, but I also don't want them bitten because Tiger gets out and they happen to be there when it happens.

I have warned them that Tiger has gotten worse and is no longer kid friendly. I told them that if they are there and he gets out they are not to move, scream, run, or do anything but stand still and not look at him. Then they can calmly and slowly walk away toward home. Is this the right tactic? I honestly know jack about how to handle getting away from a known aggressive dog. Sad to say, huh? For me I have always just avoided going near dogs I think may be aggressive or just stood still and then walked away slowly and calmly, so thats all I knew to tell the kids.

Hell, I really wish D could suck it up and put him down and she says she will if he ever acts aggressive toward her kids, but to me that's not enough. She just has such a good heart and loves animals too much to do what needs to be done. The only good that has come out of all this is that she can't bear to breed her dog again as she had such a hard time letting the pups go after having a hard time finding them homes.

[Lapsiks]

I wouldn't let the kids over there period. It sucks they can't go see their friends in their house, but it's better than what could possibly happen. Maybe let the other parents know as well, as I'm sure they wouldn't want their kids around a dog like that.

I just can't understand that mentality, he's going after kids, why should it make such a difference who's kids they are? Perhaps no kids going over there period might put some sense into D. Or less kids around will make containing him, and lowering the chance of a bite a lot easier.

[Larisochka]

*I told them that if they are there and he gets out they are not to move, scream, run, or do anything but stand still and not look at him. Then they can calmly and slowly walk away toward home. Is this the right tactic?

My GOD! I can't believe your kids are anywhere NEAR there!

You and your kids need to STAY AWAY -- whatever happens is going to happen and you will not be any where near it. This lady needs to be shunned and ignored by you. When something happens, she deserves all the guilt, shame and lawsuits that come her way and YOU do not want to even KNOW her as far as I'm concerned.

Carla

[Kitdowstyhodo]

I would suggest that she put the dog on a tie-out inside of a kennel. I hate to see dogs kenneled all their lives but that's the only thing I could think of if she refuses to cull the dog. If she won't kennel the dog, then I'm with Carla... keep your kids safe and stay away.

[wmcelesta]

Does she realize that if her dog attacks one of her kids she could lose the whole lot of em, kids and dogs included? Not to mention, but when the dog turns on her own kids it will probably be too late……….. Does she understand that she is responsible and placing a dog (no matter how much she loves him) over her kids is just wrong. Child Protective Services (ugh I hate saying it) or even AC may need to be called for the safety of her kids and the whole neighborhood.

[rootoronpunty]

MJJ,
Tell her that I'm a dog trainer/rescue person(which I am) and will take the dog, re-train it and give it to my friend who lives up north on a Ginseng farm.
All they have to do is bring me the dog in Ann Arbor.
If you want I'll PM you my Info....

[sesIgnose]

My GOD! I can't believe your kids are anywhere NEAR there!

You and your kids need to STAY AWAY -- whatever happens is going to happen and you will not be any where near it. This lady needs to be shunned and ignored by you. When something happens, she deserves all the guilt, shame and lawsuits that come her way and YOU do not want to even KNOW her as far as I'm concerned.

Carla

^^This, that dog is clearly unstable and she is being extremely selfish to everyone in the neighborhood, and pit bull owners out there.

MJJ,
Tell her that I'm a dog trainer/rescue person(which I am) and will take the dog, re-train it and give it to my friend who lives up north on a Ginseng farm.
All they have to do is bring me the dog in Ann Arbor.
If you want I'll PM you my Info....

Do you really think you can train the issues out of him...I mean..really? Cause if you are serious then go for it, but I'm not sure if there was sarcasm or not.

[Beragagnu]

MJJ,
Tell her that I'm a dog trainer/rescue person(which I am) and will take the dog, re-train it and give it to my friend who lives up north on a Ginseng farm.
All they have to do is bring me the dog in Ann Arbor.
If you want I'll PM you my Info....

That's really nice of you.
But I'm just curious, would your friend still take the dog if your training doesn't work?



And MJJ- Has anyone tried working with the dog away from the owner and everyone the dog knows?

[rootoronpunty]

The people would have to surrender the dog to my rescue.
My surrender contract says the dog is then mine.
I would temperament test the dog.
I do not adopt out HA dogs.
You can not "train out" insanity/unsoundness.
If I found the dog to be truly unsound I would put it to sleep(it's in the contract).
If it's just spoiled or a idiot, my friend could handle it. His last dog was nasty Lhasa Apso mix . He had him for 6 years till it was killed by a deer kicking it in the head as the dog chased it (odd huh?)

[br`lorance]

MsAcer, you are a freaking genius and a saint. I wonder if I could talk her into surrendering him to you. Like maybe go over and let him have a go at me. Not like I have to really do anything for that to happen and then talk to her again about liability, the safety of the kids, etc. etc. and mention I know a Pit Bull lady who lives about 40 minutes away and does rescue...

I am absolutely sure he is not spoiled. D and her husband aren't the spoiling type. They are raising her 2 kids from a previous relationship, his 2 kids from a previous marriage, their 1 kid together and the child of his ex wife who is not related to anyone because his family didn't want him and it was either them or a foster home. They are pretty practical and old school people as far as kids and dogs go, it's just that they just can't seem to do the right thing with this pup because they bred him and are too close emotionally. I am sure the temperament test results would not be good and he would have to be euthed. If I could talk her into letting him go I would drive him to you myself..in a crate in the back of my car where he can't eat me.

As far as keeping the kids away, I wish. They live directly across from me. Maybe 600-800 feet from my door to theirs. Even if I tell the kids not to go to her house they still play with kids on either side and a ton of kids play on the island in the middle of our cul de sac because we have a nice climbing tree there and are directly behind the school playground, so we get kids from all over the subdivision. If he did a door dash he could get to a number of kids easily. Which is why I am worried. I am not the type to be so concerned about something like this unless there is a very real possibility of injury. I wouldn't even worry about him being unstable and "managed" at all if the other dogs hadn't gotten loose so many times and it crossed my mind that there is a decent chance Tiger could get loose,too.

No, no one has ever taken him away from them and seen how he acts, Blaze, as he is freaking nuts and people who know the family know better that to try to handle him. The incidents I told you guys about are the one I have witnessed, not the only ones that have happened.

Cliff, she has a kennel in the yard and a chainspot already set up because her adult female APBT is DA and likes to have a go at the Husky when given a chance, so they do this kennel and rotate system to keep the Husky outside where he wants to be, but away from Roxy so they don't fight. I don't know how she plans to handle this with Tiger in the mix because he also is DA and cannot be with Bear. Considering the size of the yard, the best she could do is put Tiger in the kennel, Roxy outside the fence on a chainspot on the side of the house and Bear running the yard on his chainspot. Problem being that the kennel is in the path from the fence to the pool where every kid and his cousin go swimming on hot days and I am not sure how safe that would be. But it is worth mentioning to her. Tell her I am concerned he may get loose as the other dogs have done and suggest she could kennel him outside when it warms up with a lock on the kennel door so the kids can't let him out.

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

Does she realize that if her dog attacks one of her kids she could lose the whole lot of em, kids and dogs included? Not to mention, but when the dog turns on her own kids it will probably be too late……….. Does she understand that she is responsible and placing a dog (no matter how much she loves him) over her kids is just wrong. Child Protective Services (ugh I hate saying it) or even AC may need to be called for the safety of her kids and the whole neighborhood.

Believe me, I have tried explaining the liability legally/financially and the danger to the kids over and over again. I went into detail about me getting sued when Sam (the rescue) bit someone and what could happen to her if Tiger bites. She honestly doesn't see it as placing a dog over the kids because A) she thinks he would never hurt her kids B) she thinks she can manage him (despite the other 3 dogs getting loose more than I can count) and C) I think there is a bit of denial there..the "it won't happen to me" thing.

I appreciate the help and suggestions. I am going to try talking to her about surrendering him to MsAcer, but I think I will have to wait for another near miss or set one up by simply going over to bullshit and waiting til he takes a snap at me. Maybe I'll even let him connect. Better me than someone else and better now when he is still a pup than when he is full grown. And I am going to suggest permanent outdoor kennel time when it's warm, Cliff. See where it goes.

I really do care about this family and I have nothing against their other perfectly nice dogs. I don't even have anything against Tiger. He would probably be a good dog if he wasn't wired wrong. It's not his fault he's dangerous. But he still needs to be pts before he can hurt someone. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

[Kitdowstyhodo]

Well, I hope it all works out... It's a bad situation all-around.

[Larisochka]

Chaos and this breed sure seem to find each other.

[rootoronpunty]

"I am absolutely sure he is not spoiled."
I'm absolutely sure you are correct!! This is why I'll take the dog.
When someone surrenders a unsound dog to me, they are racked with all sorts of mixed up emotions. Some people are so hooked into the dog it means more to them then people. So I leave it WIDE open as to why the dog is "difficult". Most people want the dog to go away, they just can't bring them self's to do the right thing.
In my rescue it's always a closed adoption and I will do the best thing for the dog.
I love dogs. People? not so much...

[Waymninelia]

I wish I had some great advice, but all I can really say is good luck and I hope it works out before somebody gets hurt.

[br`lorance]

Ok, so now I am a nutty stalker. D works midnights at Mc Donalds and she has to take care of getting the kids off to school when she gets home. So, I am watching and waiting for her to be off work or at least awake so I can go over there to chat and let Tiger have a go at me so that I can bring up MsAcer's offer and see if I can get him out of the neighborhood (and under some daisies) before spring and the warm weather.

Sometetimes I doubt my sanity, lol.

[rootoronpunty]

Any updates?

[br`lorance]

Nothing yet. I haven't seen D home and awake. I figure awake is the best time to try talking to her since I don't think I'd get anywhere with her exhausted and grumpy. I am serious about setting it up so I go over to visit and Tiger can have a snap at me. I really do think this is a very dangerous situation for the kids around here and the breed. The city bordering ours, literally 3 blocks down and across the road to the city border, already has a ban and I do not want to see one here.

[rootoronpunty]

Ok
be careful and keep me posted.