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Old 01-07-2011, 12:26 AM   #1
baskentt

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Default Were we wrong?? Very upsetting!!!
I'm in a bit of a situation here and I'd appreciate any constructive advice I can get. This could get a lil long so I'll try to be as to the point as possible.

My wife and I have been the care takers of a female pit bull for the last 10 months while her owner has been away on military duty. During that time we have had her we have socialized her to our 2 dogs we already have. A Bull Terrier, and a Boxer. Everyone gets along great! =)

We let the dogs exercise in the back yard and they are ALWAYS supervised during this time. And we've never really had a problem. We live on a corner lot so the legnth of the property is exposed to the curb. (4 ft chainlink fence with gate and 3 feet of grass separates the property from the sidewalk.

Recently a man has been taking his little chihuahua for a walk and like to pause along our property to let the dogs "Make friends thru the fence" (yeah riiiiiight) This ALWAYS drives the dogs crazy and my wife and I have told him SEVERAL times no to do this and to keep moving. He always says nothing..... turns... and SLOWLY walks away letting his dog bark the legnth of the fence.

Unfortunately yesterday exactly what I was worried about... and what you've probably been expecting happend. My wife was with the dogs in the yard when the man showed up, she told him AGAIN to go away, but he did the exact same thing as usual. Only this time the pit bull we are caring for was barking at the fence and somehow bumped the latch to the gate and ran out of the yard. She immediately went after the poor lil dog. (Poor dog... dumb owner in my book) The little guy was bitten twice and got a broken leg. Lucky to be alive I'm glad it wasn't worse. Of course the police immediately write me 3 summonses, only take the "victims" statement, and leave.

Summonses: 1 Failure to secure (having an unsecured animal) I said to the policeman... "The dogs were behind the fence..." His answer.... they got OUT... didn't they? I call that unsecure"
2. Failure to license.... Not my dog.... didn't know I had to license it.

3. Unleashed animal... (dog-at-large) I assume that means running amuck..

This morning the man with the chihuahua wife shows up @ our house. And hands us a vet bill for $3100 dollars for surgery to fix their dogs hind leg. (broken tibia) I said I would pay a portion of it.... but she says I have to pay it all.... and that she's trying to be NICE.

Were my wife and I at fault in this?? If so... to what degree?? Is the other man at fault?? Should we pay the vet bill? Should we fight the summonses or just pay the fines and be done with it. My wife and I are worried sick about this..... any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:37 AM   #2
DJElizardo

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Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law...you were entirely at fault. If the guy was ON your property, regardless of a fence, it is NOT your fault. But if he was on a sidewalk, or on the street, that is not considered your property.

And yes, the dog escaped your fence. That is your fault.

For future refference...even had the latch not failed...a four foot tall fence is not adequete for holding in ANY medium sized or larger dog that actually wants to get out...especially not a bully breed (who are known for going the extra mile in any situation to achieve whatever their goal happens to be).

Whether or not your dog was behind a fence before the attack makes no difference whatsoever. Like the officer said, he got out...therefore he was NOT secured.

---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

The smart thing, in hindsight...would have been to bring the dogs inside whenever you saw this man approach. You KNEW your dog would get wound up, you said yourself you were worried about this eventuality...I don;t understand why SO MANY people wait until something DOES happen to worry about what they could have done to avoid it...or in your case (as in most others) start looking for ways to blame everyone but themselves.

You knew something like this was going to happen...why did you not take any steps to avoid it?

If you lived on a 8 lane divided highway, and your toddler liked to wander into the street, would you blame the speeding motorist that killed him? Or yourself for not making sure you child didn't go out into the street?
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:39 AM   #3
VDAu5p33

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This isn't accurate just my opinion.
the summons look about correct. maybe you can put a lock on the latch on the fence, i know my grandma did that when her gsd was alive cause he knew how to open the gate. you dont have to leave it locked, as long as its on the hole and the dogs cant lift the latch
the license, well you should have either looked it up or discussed this with the original owner not your fault but ish happens.
and technically the dog was unleashed

as for paying the bill.... i don't know. i probably would take the person to court and say how many times you told them not to do this cause it gets your dogs riled up. but more than likely you will lose cause, fair or not its a pit bull against a chi. now id suggest taking photos recording the next time the guy does this (if hes stupid enough to still do this) for evidence that you told him to stop.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:50 AM   #4
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what isn't accurate? The dog escaped the owner's property and attacked another dog. The law is pretty clear on this. The dog was at large, unconfined, not in it's owner's control, and off the owner's property where the attack occurred (I'm assuming...now if the guy actually walked his dog off of the road/sidewalk/easement and INTO the OP's yard...then that's another story) but 10 feet from the road on anyone's property is considered "public".
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:34 AM   #5
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sorry. thats your fault, no matter what, dog was loose, you pay the bill. i would however, go tell the dogs owner to pay you for the license fine.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:57 AM   #6
baskentt

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Gator.... To clarify, I am NOT looking to blame others. I actually ASKED if we were at fault. If by stating things from MY point of view makes it sound like I'm trying to assign blame, I am not. I'm asking these questions only because in the 5 years I have had my other dogs, and the months I've been watching the pit bull NOTHING like this has ever occurred. To make clear one other fact.... yes, he was on my property. My fence is set back maybe 10 from the curb and the gate that he allowed the dogs to fight at is up a small set of stairs. Imho thats my property. I've never had a problem with my fence or gates before, but I'll be getting a 6ft privacy fence up asap. If my wife and I ARE at fault... I can accept that. I'm just trying to figure out where we stand is all. I'm just upset. The lil guy got hurt, and thats a LOT of cash to fork over for someone else stupidity. I could see if it was a child walking the dog, but a grown man should have enough sense. =( (just my point of view of course)

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

Ok....... General concensus is Stoobie & Wife were wrong. For future reference.... is the privacy fence enough? Or is there something more I should be aware of. (not sarcasm)
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:59 AM   #7
w3QHxwNb

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Gator.... To clarify, I am NOT looking to blame others. I actually ASKED if we were at fault. If by stating things from MY point of view makes it sound like I'm trying to assign blame, I am not. I'm asking these questions only because in the 5 years I have had my other dogs, and the months I've been watching the pit bull NOTHING like this has ever occurred. To make clear one other fact.... yes, he was on my property. My fence is set back maybe 10 from the curb and the gate that he allowed the dogs to fight at is up a small set of stairs. Imho thats my property. I've never had a problem with my fence or gates before, but I'll be getting a 6ft privacy fence up asap. If my wife and I ARE at fault... I can accept that. I'm just trying to figure out where we stand is all. I'm just upset. The lil guy got hurt, and thats a LOT of cash to fork over for someone else stupidity. I could see if it was a child walking the dog, but a grown man should have enough sense. =( (just my point of view of course)

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

Ok....... General concensus is Stoobie & Wife were wrong. For future reference.... is the privacy fence enough? Or is there something more I should be aware of. (not sarcasm)
Maybe install chain spots in your yard so the dogs cant get close to the fence and are secured at all times?
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:07 AM   #8
DJElizardo

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You said yourself you were worried something like this would happen eventually, yet you did nothing to prevent it. That's all there is to it. Like I said, there is an amount of space (at least 10 feet, but it could be more in some areas) from the road on anyone's property that is considered "public". And you may have suggested the guy stop...but unless you are terribly afraid of confrontation, there is no reason you couldn't have MADE the dude back away from your fence with his dog. You ARE at fault. There's no two ways about it.

I can't even begin to understand why you allowed your dogs to fence fight with this other. You guys are always out with them...so you have the option of removing your dogs from the area when the dude came up. You LET them fence fight. You LET this happen. What's even worse, you KNEW it would happen eventually....yet you STILL let it happen.

And you ARE blaming everyone(thing) but yourself. You are blaming the idiot and his dog, you are blaming the latch on the gate, and now you are saying nothing like this has ever occured. Yes it has. Apparently it has occurred multiple times, and you did nothing to stop it.

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

Ok....... General concensus is Stoobie & Wife were wrong. For future reference.... is the privacy fence enough? Or is there something more I should be aware of. (not sarcasm)
As long as the latch is secure, and you are there to supervise, it should be enough. Well...assuming you correct any problems as they arise BEFORE anything goes wrong. A determined pit can still scale a privacy fence, but if you are out with them, you should be able to stop them before they make it. But if your dogs get riled up at something, bring them in until that something passes. Allowing dogs to get over excited by things on the other side of fences can lead to serious issues...as you have seen. Look up "barrier aggression".
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:13 AM   #9
VDAu5p33

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what isn't accurate? The dog escaped the owner's property and attacked another dog. The law is pretty clear on this. The dog was at large, unconfined, not in it's owner's control, and off the owner's property where the attack occurred (I'm assuming...now if the guy actually walked his dog off of the road/sidewalk/easement and INTO the OP's yard...then that's another story) but 10 feet from the road on anyone's property is considered "public".
umm, this isnt accurate, just my opinion means that what im saying is just my opinion.... get it now?
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:16 AM   #10
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no, I don't...what, exactly isn't accurate? Laws and facts are not altered by anyone's personal opinions.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:25 AM   #11
baskentt

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Whoa..... hold on there gator. Thats an extremely agressive stance you're taking there.You're trying to make my wife and I out to be bad people... and bad dog owners.... and we aren't. I Resent that a LOT! We NEVER just sit there and let the dogs fence fight. We always gather them up and either calm them down or send them inside. He comes outta no where. we don't get to see him coming. This hasn't been going on for MONTHS This has been DAYS.... 2 weeks tops. And yes... I HAVE confronted this man.... who ignores me and walks away. Once again you say I'm blaming everything under the sun except myself. I Don't blame the latch.... I don't blame the gate.... I don't blame the lil dog. I only blamed the OWNER who I feel is as equally at fault for letting the little guy yap @ the fence. To use your same 8 lanes of traffic analogy. If you let your six pound dog antagonize dogs who weigh 25x more than you and have 3x as many teeth and they OBVIOUSLY don't LIKE it. If one of them bites your dog do you blame yourself or the other owner?

And seriously.... this kinda ISH has NEVER happend before.... at worse they would bark a bit at a passing dog and call it good.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:28 AM   #12
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sorry dude, you didn't say any of that. I can only go by what you say.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:17 AM   #13
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Wow this dude ^

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

I honestly think that the owner of the dog that got bit was at fault, although the court might say otherwise you forwarned him multiple times about not leasurly walking by your house. yea you should have had the latch secure but that doesnt change the fact the guy proceeded to come back for 2 weeks, in my opinion thats his dum**** fault. just my 2cents
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:50 AM   #14
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Legally your were at fault. This was an ongoing problem and you were aware of the danger. In your own words you said what happened was exactly what you were afraid of, which is evidence that what happened could have been expected and prevented. Frankly in my house even when my dog is inside I will close blinds to prevent my dog from going crazy if someone on the street decides to stop in front of my house while they are walking their dog. You had plenty of warning that the a-hole with the chihuahua was a problem. The guy was basically asking for it based on the warnings you gave him but caring for a pit bull in a fenced area with a gate to a public sidewalk that has a latch that isn't secure puts you at fault. If you go to court you will loose. You may be able to claim contributory negligence on the part of the chihuahua owner but I think you still loose. Especially if his dog was on a leash and he was on a public property. Sorry

Two things I would like to know are. Did you very nicely explain the situation to the guy and NICELY request that he refrain from do this with his dog. I can't imagine a guy with a pet chihuahua insisted on taunting a pit bull with his chihuahua as if that could ever turn out good for his dog. My other question is. Now that this has happened is the guy still coming by the fence with his little dog? Some guys learn the hard way.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:51 AM   #15
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Stoobie,Unfortunatly you were in the wrong legally speaking.The fines are your responsibility.I would pay the fines because the dog did break confinement and was not appropreatly liscenced.On the liscencing side,I am not sure what the statutes are regaurding this.In my city you must liscense the dog to the place it is residing if it is long term housing.3months + If not residing there over 3 months,you must provide the owner's liscencing information.

I don't know what I would do about the vet bills.I would probably pay 50% because my dog is half of the problem.He was also half the problem by disregaurding your requests to keep his dog away from the premisies.

On a more personal note,we have people who try and tease MY dogs through our fence.I totally feel you! And they have to hop up onto a retaining wall to do so.I swear people can be so stupid sometimes.They need something better to do than provoke dogs.AAAAAaaaanyhoo, If there were any reason that this might go to a hearing of any kind,I would mention the fact that this guy has been asked REPEATEDLY to not be putting his dog up to the fence.Not because YOUR dogs are viscious,but because he allows HIS dog to harass your dogs.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:09 AM   #16
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my opinion is that it is your fault in a way. u should lock the latch some how. and in another way you warned the guy to not walk past your house ( or maybe he could of walked on the other side of the street.) But he didn't listen so he put his dog in danger. but you shouldn't try to fight it because I think you will lose. That guy can walk wherever he wants. but i will make the actually owner of the dog who attacked pay to license but he shuldnt have to pay the vet bill because the dog was under your supervision. i dont mean to be rude and this happens all the time with dogs. dogs are going to be dogs you just have to watch them very carefully when it comes to things like this. and good luck with everything.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:09 AM   #17
baskentt

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Update:

From everything I've read here so far I have already decided to just pay the sumonses. Provoked or not a loose dog is a loose dog.

I also spoke with the family that owns the chihuahua....... that went......... um........ NOT so well.
I apologized profusely. I spoke to the wife ( I am actually begining to think the husband cannot speak english. maybe thats why he would never respond on the occasions I spoke to him) . I explained that I would be willing to pay HALF of her dogs medical expenses. She informed me that I HAD to pay all of it. Went on a tirade about how my dog attacked her dog. I calmly tried to explain that altho I'm sorry for her dogs injuries that her husbands actions PROVOKED the attack. Her reply was that doesn't matter, pay the whole bill by friday (today is wed) because she doesn't have the money for the surgery either. I told her I don't have that kind of money to just give away, I'll pay you half... thats the best I can do. She said.... I'm going to the police station tomorrow and getting the report.

Soooooo I guess I'll have a court date coming up. I'm willing to meet them halfway. All in all I still feel bad for the lil dog. He's the real victim here. I'll do what it takes to make sure it never happens again... but I'm not gonna sit here and get bullied into paying for the stupid actions of others.

(prepares to duck the flying barbs from gator.... ) lol
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:18 AM   #18
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If this was happening as you said, and I will say, hindsight is sometimes 20/20, I will offer up some advice for future reference.

Whenever or if ever you find yourself in this same or similar situation again, keep a written log, take pictures or video at every opportunity. If this person was trespassing on your property, the three foot of grass between the fence and the sidewalk, you should have been doing more than shooshing him away like a common housefly. You are responsible for your dog's safety and well being. We all have accidents, and in hindsight, we all see how they could have been prevented, what we could have done to make things better. If you own that three feet of grass between the sidewalk and the fence, you could have quite possibly done more? If that was my three feet of grass and my dogs, you can bet your sweet ass, Mister Man and his ugly little Chee-wa-wa would be getting properly cited for trespassing.
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:34 AM   #19
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I honestly think that the owner of the dog that got bit was at fault, although the court might say otherwise you forwarned him multiple times about not leasurly walking by your house. yea you should have had the latch secure but that doesnt change the fact the guy proceeded to come back for 2 weeks, in my opinion thats his dum**** fault. just my 2cents
This makes no difference in the eyes of the law. For example when I was a teenage we lived near some people with a very DA german shepherd, she'd attacked dogs before and they did try to keep her contained and under control. There was a couple little annoying brats who would walk their fat mutt back and forth in front of this dogs house and kennel just to watch her go nuts, one day she went through the door, attacked their dog, her owners had to pay the vet bills, she got a "dangerous" dog label. Now the dogs are the ones who suffer here and it was clearly provoked but fat mutt was on a leash, on the sidewalk so the GSD was loose and attacking and at fault.

OP, you are at fault here and I would also recommend you keep the dog on a leash or on a chain spot from now on, a four foot fence isn't going to keep anything determined in and knowing it will go after another dog you need to stop any chance of that occurring again.
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:34 AM   #20
VDAu5p33

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no, I don't...what, exactly isn't accurate? Laws and facts are not altered by anyone's personal opinions.
*FACE PALM* forget it, it wasnt to you anyway it was to the op
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