[BadbarmrapBef]

Not sure if im posting this correctly. But something a friend said got me thinking... why was the old school way the ineffective way to train a dog? Now im NOT saying its okayto beat your dog for peeing on the rug and whatnot. Im really all for positive reinforcement. But I've only been raised around the "old school trained" dogs so Im curious as to everyones thoughts on the topic. Why is new school (positive reinforcement) more effective than the old school way of doing things? It seems (I think...) that dogs back then were just fine as they are now so that'd why im curious for everyone elses opinion =)

[DghtRdc]

Too me, it's not as much about ''effective'' as it is about ''what kind of relationship do I want with my dog''? Do I want one based on punishment and intimidation, or one based on mutual respect and positive shared experiences? Do I want my dog to ''behave out of fear of me'' or ''because he wants to please me''? I ''old schooled'' my first dogs to a large extent (Cesar Millan would have been very proud ), and let me tell you, I had a houseful of VERY well behaved dogs (people couldn't BELIEVE I had FIVE bull and terriers, four of them females, that ''got along'' (more like tolerate each other out of fear of Fuhrer Zoe ) It put a HUGE black mark on our relationship that would show itself at very innoportune times usually with my dogs shutting down (or in my stupid head....''being stubborn'' ) due to learned helplessness. That is not something I want to do with my present dogs. My natural inclination due to my personality is to be ''old school'' so it's taken alot of shifting gears on my part. It's a work in progress. I look back and just shake my head at some of the crap I've done but it's all a process... sometimes you've gotta go one way, before you see you are travelling down a road you don't want to be on, so you take a uturn and try to make up lost time. I'm just glad I made these mistakes, and learned from them with my dogs and not my kids!

[BadbarmrapBef]

The other tenent in my house has his apbt trained like you would t believe and from what he described to me was thru "old school" manner. Shoving their noses in pee in the house the alpha roll etc. Now...I will admit...he's dog is great. Very VERY obedient. I do t see any stubborness. Would this jet randomly occur one day? Cause im not going go lie im at the point with raj where I get so frustrated I want to go all "old school" on his behind lol

[Adimonnna]

I think it more has to do with that more dogs can be trained successfully using modern methods than can be done with old ones as you are likely to ruin a lot.

[DghtRdc]

Well, I can't speak for this guy and his dog, as I don't know either of them or what goes on behind closed doors. All I can say is that to the outside world, my dogs looked "very well trained", but I know what was really going on, and ya... random shutting down, alot of frustration on the part of myself and my dogs which SO could have been avoided. Where it really got ugly in my head is when I started researching the SCIENCE behind behaviour. It was a real eye opener to what I was REALLY doing to my dogs.

And not saying that I did EVERYTHING bad, but when I starting looking at simple things like... when were BOTH my dog and I happiest in training?... it definitely wasn't when I was playing dictator. The thing is as well, some of the dogs I've owned have been VERY soft dogs. Some harder dogs can take correction based training and it just glides off their back like water and they respond well, but I find a good majority of bull and terriers to be very people soft so they don't always respond well to harsh correction, and again... ''respond well'' depends on what you want out of your dog. I'm not anti correction, but I figure if I reached the point where I have to correct I need to back up because *I* screwed up somewhere in failing to make my dog understand what I want out of them. I find most people correct out of frustration, not as an actual ''training method''. I'd honestly rather manage a less ''well trained'' dog, than put my present dogs through what my old girls put up with just for the sake of my convenience. Again...so similar with kids... do I want to have the patience to take the time, no matter how ''inconvenient'' to me to help my kids to understand what is going to be mutually beneficial to us both, and build a relationship based on trust, or do I just want to intimidate them into behaving so they aren't ''a bother''.

To each his own though as you are the one that has to actually live with your dog. Who knows... maybe I've just grown soft in my old age or more patient... I haven't figured out which yet.

[Ruidselisse]

I do not see it as "old school" Vs "New School"... I see it as folks who knew dogs and knew what they were doing Vs Folks who did not...
positive reinforcement training has been around for ever... it is not new...
folks learned what they did from folks they were around, folks they knew...
the advantage today is in communication... word gets around much more readily than it did in the past... we have greater access to the knowledge of others than we did say 50 years ago...
today with cable TV and multiple channels to watch, almost everyone has heard of Cesar and his methods... if this was 1950 only folks in his area would have heard of him....
this same communication ease unfortunately has helped with the hype about our dogs and has boosted the BSL supporters....misinformation is as accessible as the truth....

[TheDoctor]

I love positive reinforcement training because it's so much faster and much more fun. However, all dogs are different. Some dogs almost can't learn with aversives (old school punishment). Some dogs really sharpen up when correction is reasonably applied after the training has taken place.

Each dog is different. Each handler is different. But "new school" training, which really isn't very new, is my hands-down favorite.

[Bromikka]

i use old school if that is what they call NR. my do something cause i say so not cause they fear me. an if you know about dogs you can see a dog that has just been corrected vs a dog that is getting beat.

[pE71J5Sw]

I think a mix of both works well for Brutus. He usually won't respond to a stern "NO" but a smack on the butt will make him realize I mean business. That's usually only used when he is definitely not paying attention and focused on something else. Saint is very soft to voice corrections and if I yell at her then sometimes its enough to make her shutdown. She ignores everyone else though so if she's eating out of the trash and i'm not there my bf has to drag her away from it.

[BadbarmrapBef]

I do not see it as "old school" Vs "New School"... I see it as folks who knew dogs and knew what they were doing Vs Folks who did not...
positive reinforcement training has been around for ever... it is not new...
folks learned what they did from folks they were around, folks they knew...
the advantage today is in communication... word gets around much more readily than it did in the past... we have greater access to the knowledge of others than we did say 50 years ago...
today with cable TV and multiple channels to watch, almost everyone has heard of Cesar and his methods... if this was 1950 only folks in his area would have heard of him....
this same communication ease unfortunately has helped with the hype about our dogs and has boosted the BSL supporters....misinformation is as accessible as the truth....

I know what im calling "new school" has been around forever I just never saw it around me...ever. also I find it easier to type in "new school" over "positive reinforcement" haha since I posted this at 230 in the morning lol it also seems to be the preferred method amoungst trainers now than it was back then.
That's just how it seems at least to me.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

I think a mix of both works well for Brutus. He usually won't respond to a stern "NO" but a smack on the butt will make him realize I mean business. That's usually only used when he is definitely not paying attention and focused on something else. Saint is very soft to voice corrections and if I yell at her then sometimes its enough to make her shutdown. She ignores everyone else though so if she's eating out of the trash and i'm not there my bf has to drag her away from it.

I see what you are saying. My situation is the same with raj. Except there are some vocal correctsions he is overly sensitive too instead of phyisical. Like if he's standing in my way. When he was a puppy I would say excuse me and move him lol now if I try and move him (now that he weighs 57 lbs) he wont move. .but if I say excuse me! He moves over to the side haha. But with nipping (which he is terrible with im still workingwith him on it and he's 8months old) we've tried everything. The yelp. A stern no...ignoring him he thinks its all a big game so we tried everytime he nips to grab him jaw shut and then say no that seems to be working for now..

[nuncEtedben]

I think there have been great dog trainers both in the past, and in the present. I've been participating in an assortment of dog training activities for about 25 years. Current dog training approaches have roots in science, science that wasn't available 25 years ago. So we now understand more about how learning takes place, and how to optimize learning. This greatly expands our toolbox as trainers. However, there are still enough trainers whose adeptness at reading dogs, whose timing is precise, and are skilled controlling their own body language so that their messages are clear, so that they are effective trainers no matter what approach they use. Whether they might even achieve more if they were only using positively based methods? Maybe. Might their dogs be happier and more eager? Perhaps.
I think that contemporary methods give more dogs a chance to learn in a more pleasant fashion. Perhaps more owners actually enjoy training, and pursue it further.
As I train in agility, which is a very positively based sport, and have trainers that compete on a national level, I have the opportunity to see how much you can accomplish with positively based training.

[nd90t3sf]

I think old school training (physical discipline for bad behavior) is not something I am actually against but I have found it is relatively ineffective for pitbulls. They are very determined and frankly not much you can do to physically dissuade them from something they are really interested in doing. It works much better to have them wanting to behave for you than trying to scare them into behaving. We all know they are not deterred by physical pain, have an incredible resistance to discomfort, and are the most determined dogs on the planet. I think this is part of the essence of gameness. I have been so furious with one of my dogs in the past that I lost my temper and punched her. I almost broke my hand on her head while she just looked at me puzzled as if to say " wow that must have hurt your hand way more that it hurt my head" and she was right.

The most effective way to train your dog is with positive reinforcement of good behavior and letting you dog know you are angry over negative behavior. Yelling at my dog has a much bigger effect on him than hitting him.

[StevenS]

One influence over a shift in training techniques is almost certainly the change in attitude from dogs being dogs to suddenly becoming something we should be carrying around in handbags and dressing up in costumes. A lot of dogs today are probably spoilt while many kids live in poverty. Where have our priorities gone?

[TheDoctor]

Yeah, no one should feed a dog until world hunger for humans is solved...

[Ruidselisse]

One influence over a shift in training techniques is almost certainly the change in attitude from dogs being dogs to suddenly becoming something we should be carrying around in handbags and dressing up in costumes. A lot of dogs today are probably spoilt while many kids live in poverty. Where have our priorities gone?

the sins of the father are visited upon the son....and that is the name of that tune....

[Narcodran]

When we were plunged into bully breed ownership with Madeleine in 2001, I was totally clueless when it came to the different OB training styles, or 'schools'.

Thus, clueless here signed up for a group training class offered through a local pet store.

The trainer was 'old school', an Irish guy who was a field dog trainer in his native country. Or, so he claimed.

Dog did not comply, dog was yanked, jerked, and when Madeleine (a pup aged about 7 months at the time), did not heel when instructed by him - he dragged her across the ground. Rough cement, recently spayed dog - not good.

Result: dog shut down completely. Any time he approached her, she peed submissively. She did not learn a thing.

After observing one terrifying 'helicopter' move done by the trainer with another dog in the class, I was d o n e ... we stopped attending, and through our vet, found a truly professional 'positive' trainer that made Madeleine shine

[attackDoold]

I think you need to base your training methods not on your own ideologies but on the individual dog. NR may work for one dog but may ruin another. P+ may work for one dog but may not phase others.
Or you have dogs like Lily who don't care about punishment. You can correct her all day, hell you could probably beat her for doing something, and she'll go back and do it again. She doesn't care. She needs to learn what she SHOULD do, not what she SHOULD NOT do. Basically, when we're walking, she knows what she SHOULD do is walk next to me. Walking next to me gets her a treat. I don't care about what she shouldn't do, because what she shouldn't do is ANYTHING other than walking next to me. If I just yanked her around, put a prong on her, and told her to stop forging forward or whatever, she'd basically be like 'ok' for a minute, and then go ahead and do it again. It doesn't resonate with her. She doesn't think that way.
Now, for my other dog, a quick prong correction and she's right back where she needs to be. For her, the negative reinforcement, the telling her what not to do, is the best way to teach her.
We have to remember we're teaching our dogs- not punishing them, not shoving food down their throats. Yes, corrections have their place in positive reinforcement; I don't think anyone can train their dog without at some point saying 'hey, don't do that', but some dogs don't care about it in the long run. The risk outweighs with punishment. For these dogs, learning what they need to be doing is the best way to teach them. Dogs are looking for guidance, and if you don't tell them what to do, they're just going to do whatever they want. You can't punish a dog for doing something you never told him not to do, like people who use the knee to the chest method of teaching a dog not to jump- the dog has no idea what you want it to do. So ok, you've kneed it in the chest, now what? You have to answer that question for the dog so he knows 'ok, I don't jump, I sit and wait to be pet'. But you can't just expect the dog to know that it needs to sit.
My other pet peeve, and this isn't necessarily NR, it's really what I like to call 'force training', is people that FORCE their dogs to do something. They choke them into a down, scream at them and make them fear them, the 'no no bad dog!' shove their face in their piss people. These are people that don't understand the canine mind, who don't understand how to create a bond with their dog. It's one thing to correct and use corrections as your means of training, it's a whole nother thing to literally choke your dog into submission.

[shinesw]

I think it more has to do with that more dogs can be trained successfully using modern methods than can be done with old ones as you are likely to ruin a lot.

I like this - I feel more inclined to believe this than anything else.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 PM ----------

Well, I can't speak for this guy and his dog, as I don't know either of them or what goes on behind closed doors. All I can say is that to the outside world, my dogs looked "very well trained", but I know what was really going on, and ya... random shutting down, alot of frustration on the part of myself and my dogs which SO could have been avoided. Where it really got ugly in my head is when I started researching the SCIENCE behind behaviour. It was a real eye opener to what I was REALLY doing to my dogs.

And not saying that I did EVERYTHING bad, but when I starting looking at simple things like... when were BOTH my dog and I happiest in training?... it definitely wasn't when I was playing dictator. The thing is as well, some of the dogs I've owned have been VERY soft dogs. Some harder dogs can take correction based training and it just glides off their back like water and they respond well, but I find a good majority of bull and terriers to be very people soft so they don't always respond well to harsh correction, and again... ''respond well'' depends on what you want out of your dog. I'm not anti correction, but I figure if I reached the point where I have to correct I need to back up because *I* screwed up somewhere in failing to make my dog understand what I want out of them. I find most people correct out of frustration, not as an actual ''training method''. I'd honestly rather manage a less ''well trained'' dog, than put my present dogs through what my old girls put up with just for the sake of my convenience. Again...so similar with kids... do I want to have the patience to take the time, no matter how ''inconvenient'' to me to help my kids to understand what is going to be mutually beneficial to us both, and build a relationship based on trust, or do I just want to intimidate them into behaving so they aren't ''a bother''.

To each his own though as you are the one that has to actually live with your dog. Who knows... maybe I've just grown soft in my old age or more patient... I haven't figured out which yet.

I really really like the way you said this as well.

[Alulursuifold]

Yeah, no one should feed a dog until world hunger for humans is solved...

lol