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**Fksxneng** · 12-05-2011, 04:42 AM

We have perfect agreement on swimming---it's what I do best. I used to swim 1 mile or more each day, when I lived in Florida (in an apartment complex with a pool) :-) I rejoice in our ability to have find common ground somewhere!

Sure, when I was a young woman I used to swim freestyle in the specialty of 4 X 400 combined.

Thanks for your careful consideration of my points and your analysis. It's helpful to me and, hopefully, others, to be able to see things from your perspective. You are welcome Tjampel...

To repeat what I've said before, this "deep level" I refer to is easily understood in the following way. You are in a plane plunging towards earth and feel you're going to die. Do you concentrate on your rebirth at that time...what type, where, etc. or...do you react purely in an existential manner...clinging to this very life, because you don't feel there's any life or consciousness or continuity for you other than right here, right now. There are many people who may speak of rebirth as if it exists who will quickly reject it (due to grave doubt) when plunging to earth in that plane. I know, I'm one of them (just some bad turbulence, in my case, was all it took!). I have had some car accidents. I have never thought about rebirth. I just remember waking up at the accident place and looking for help.

IMO, believes in after life or future lifes are just because the need of some sort of eternalism... but such issues are about very personal believes because I have seen are a core aspect for people to have meaning and purpose in life.

So, when I read sutta do I read all these references as metaphor; it's not a decision to do it or not do it. It's a conditioned reflect based on 50 years of reading books, of understanding context, concept, skillful teaching means. And if it feels like it's intended as metaphor then that's what I will get out of the experience. If it doesn't then that's when I may need to question the authenticity or question what the Buddha believed (which is all we disagree about). Rebirth at the early teachings seems they are not the main aspect to quench Dukkha. IMO, rebirth can be a very subtle way of craving.

And that's where the comment with regard to Einstein is germane. The theory of special relativity stands on its own no matter what beliefs Einstein developed later in life. Not so sure Tjampel. This can be a good issue for the Tea Room.

Just a few words about this:

Einstein is an object of devotion for some people. At the end he was really stressed by Quantum Mechanics. He never accepted randomness as a fact nor the the irreversibility of time. His thought founded the idea of a ruling God behind the Big Bang. Recently, his most devoted pupil, Hawking, has come to understand, in his theoretical stagnation, that physics is not about finding Gods.

On the other hand, the thought of Niels Bohr opened the door to outstanding new scientific research fields like the sciences of complexity or the school of Thermodynamics of Living Systems of Ilya Prigogine.

Best wishes,

12-05-2011, 04:42 AM	#38
Fksxneng Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 477 Senior Member	We have perfect agreement on swimming---it's what I do best. I used to swim 1 mile or more each day, when I lived in Florida (in an apartment complex with a pool) :-) I rejoice in our ability to have find common ground somewhere! Sure, when I was a young woman I used to swim freestyle in the specialty of 4 X 400 combined. Thanks for your careful consideration of my points and your analysis. It's helpful to me and, hopefully, others, to be able to see things from your perspective. You are welcome Tjampel... To repeat what I've said before, this "deep level" I refer to is easily understood in the following way. You are in a plane plunging towards earth and feel you're going to die. Do you concentrate on your rebirth at that time...what type, where, etc. or...do you react purely in an existential manner...clinging to this very life, because you don't feel there's any life or consciousness or continuity for you other than right here, right now. There are many people who may speak of rebirth as if it exists who will quickly reject it (due to grave doubt) when plunging to earth in that plane. I know, I'm one of them (just some bad turbulence, in my case, was all it took!). I have had some car accidents. I have never thought about rebirth. I just remember waking up at the accident place and looking for help. IMO, believes in after life or future lifes are just because the need of some sort of eternalism... but such issues are about very personal believes because I have seen are a core aspect for people to have meaning and purpose in life. So, when I read sutta do I read all these references as metaphor; it's not a decision to do it or not do it. It's a conditioned reflect based on 50 years of reading books, of understanding context, concept, skillful teaching means. And if it feels like it's intended as metaphor then that's what I will get out of the experience. If it doesn't then that's when I may need to question the authenticity or question what the Buddha believed (which is all we disagree about). Rebirth at the early teachings seems they are not the main aspect to quench Dukkha. IMO, rebirth can be a very subtle way of craving. And that's where the comment with regard to Einstein is germane. The theory of special relativity stands on its own no matter what beliefs Einstein developed later in life. Not so sure Tjampel. This can be a good issue for the Tea Room. Just a few words about this: Einstein is an object of devotion for some people. At the end he was really stressed by Quantum Mechanics. He never accepted randomness as a fact nor the the irreversibility of time. His thought founded the idea of a ruling God behind the Big Bang. Recently, his most devoted pupil, Hawking, has come to understand, in his theoretical stagnation, that physics is not about finding Gods. On the other hand, the thought of Niels Bohr opened the door to outstanding new scientific research fields like the sciences of complexity or the school of Thermodynamics of Living Systems of Ilya Prigogine. Best wishes,
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