[blackjackblax]

Courtesy? What a load of old cobblers!
29th June 2006
The Nation

Get upset when people push past you to pile into a lift before you've had a chance to get out first? Disappointed when strangers refuse to say "thanks" when you hold open a door for them?

How about people chatting during a movie? Or who jump in front of you in a queue?

These sorts of small but tiringly irksome incidents are far too common in Bangkok, it would seem. Indeed, our so-called "City of Angels" has received a devil of a ranking in a survey by Reader's Digest of the the levels of courtesy shown to researchers in major cities around the world.

"This was the world's biggest real-life test of common courtesy," said Kaidsuda Suriyayos, managing editor of Reader's Digest Sansara Thai edition.

"Our researchers conducted more than 2,000 separate tests of actual behaviour, producing results that were both revealing and thought-provoking."

Out of 35 cities around the world, Bangkok came 25th in the magazine's latest survey, conducted to find out more about the "dying art" of courtesy.

The magazine's reporters were dispatched to different corners of the world to assess politeness in the most populous city in 35 countries. In every location, they staged scenarios to see if people would hold open a door, say "thank you" after making a sale in a shop, and help someone pick up papers dropped in a busy location. Points were awarded for polite responses, and the results for each city tallied and compared.

But don't worry, Bangkokians, you are hardly alone in lacking courtesy. Residents of Moscow and Bucharest also ranked very low on the global list.

A woman who failed to hold a door in Moscow quipped: "I'm not a doorman. It's not my job to hold doors. If someone gets hurt, they should be quicker on their feet."

In Bangkok, a teenage girl entering a crowded department store let the door swing back without looking behind. "I've never glanced back to hold doors for others before; this kind of behaviour is not common for me," she told the researcher.

One consolation for Bangkokians fearful of our lack of civility - our neighbours are equally as uncouth. The magazine said that eight out of nine Asian cities finished in the bottom 11.

Worldwide, New York topped the list for the most courteous residents, followed by Zurich, Toronto, Berlin, Zagreb and Sao Paulo, respectively.

Reader's Digest quoted Niwes Kanthairaj, a renowned columnist on social affairs, as saying: "The effort to develop generosity is not enough. People tend to forget to be considerate, to be concerned for other's feelings, which is part of basic manners in a society."

The survey results will be published in the Reader's Digest next month. The magazine claims it is the most extensive global collaboration in its 84-year history.

Duangporn Bodart

[ireleda]

Not only BKK, that includes even the smaller places as well, seems to be even worse than China to me,, especially the not holding door from smashing into someones face behind you and the forcing ahead of others waiting in line.
Kind of a "I am more important than you" attitude.. but it is also prevalent in the driving of motor vehicles that makes travel so dangerous in Thailand..

[LasTins]

I think it is really alarming that most parents at our school think that it is the teachers' job exclusively to teach kids good manners. for example, if the teacher and the parent are talking, and two metres away the 5-year-old kid kicks a classmate who then starts crying, the parent wouldn't say a thing. they just insist on proper wais. the kids bring violent movies and cartoons to school every day (we have twenty minutes movie time before going to nap). there was an incident a few weeks ago, a Prathom 2 kid kicked a cleaning lady, it turned out the reason was "she is just a maid", and he had seen his dad do the same with their cleaning lady at home.
it is interesting to note that our Muslim Thai kids (about 30% of all students) are the most polite, disciplined, kind and responsible, they know how to share and they truly respect teachers and each other.

[ireleda]

A real shame isn't it that Parents can not take time to raise kids and still wonder why the world is going to hell.

If you do not have the time or energy to raise a kid with respect and consideration for others then you should leave the breeding to those who do.

This country and Mexico show a great deal of likeness, in both manners of people, their work ethics, their gross output and GNP, how the kids are raised and what the future looks like, How do you expect to have a great and productive/powerful country when everyone just thinks of himself is beyond me.

[LasTins]

it's not a question of time, it's the question of effort. if kids hear and see the same rules of conduct at school and at home, it will work. if the teacher shouts when the kid kicks someone but the parents don't mind, though it would just take two words, we are heading into trouble. most kids spend a lot more time at school than at home, but they still do need the odd word or warning from their parents too.

[movlabc]

What Common Courtesy is to Readers Digest is what they have been conditioned to think.

There is where this survey is flawed, it is full of western concepts of 'courtesy'. ie.. turning down the music for respect of your neighbours privacy or saying thank you to the waitress etc....

It is rude in this article to write 'lack of civility', that's typical of the usual western and especially American mentality of 'We are better than you - you are weird'.

Farangs lack courtesy in plenty of ways which Thais would consider 'lack of civility' ie..walking along a street shirtless while scoffing a hamburger in 3 bites and then sticking a toothpick in yer mouth for everyone to see.

Did Readers Digest think about these 'vulgarities' when making the survey? Of course not!

What a loada crappo!

[ireleda]

OK, so then you think that courtesy and respect mean a total lack of consideration for everyone but yourself.

I got it now, maybe with the right training I can become courteous and respectful too..

What a load of bullocks.

But it seems they were talking about what goes on in the citys, not what a few farang do there..

[LasTins]

btw, Steve I think you are right. I had a very similar conversation this week with a bunch of English colleagues who have amazingly been here for years and one of them even has a Thai (Karen) husband, but they said they had never seen a good-mannered Thai. the complaints ranged from one of them being told all the time straight to her face that she is fat and ugly (she indeed is) to all the pushing and traffic chaos mentioned in the article above. I was trying to suggest that my impression is Thais don't mean to be offensive at all, they don't lie to you and then stab you in the back (most of the time). that I prefer a Thai shopkeeper telling me with a big smile "have bigbig size for you" to a European shopkeeper smiling at me as if contemplating some disgusting worm, but I couldn't get the idea across. I guess Brits tend to have a superiority complex, this mind that put them on a track of colonising half the world.... the American colleagues are much more relaxed. (but I don't want to overgeneralise.)

but apart from culture-specific ways of being polite, there must be some universal values too. I would say not kicking others and listening to others are amongst them for a start.

I didn't mean to complain about Thais in general, I don't think they are rude. you just have to get used to having the doors shut in your face and forget about it. however, there are some really scary patterns in this middle-class school where I'm teaching. I think it has to do with the general spoiling of kids.

[largonioulurI]

I must admit, when I went to the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York city, not to stay there of course, to expensive, but my mate who has a film distributor business and is a film buff, he wanted to go into the same bar as Al Pacino in scent of a woman, any way I must admit they were very courteous, specially when my mate, was playing the part of drunken, Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade from the movie.

[ireleda]

Farangs lack courtesy in plenty of ways which Thais would consider 'lack of civility' ie..walking along a street shirtless while scoffing a hamburger in 3 bites and then sticking a toothpick in yer mouth for everyone to see How would you rate someone setting in a food shop or on a bus digging around in his nose, thoroughly inspecting everything he dug out and wiping it on his pants leg before going mining for some more for 30 min. before packing his nose with menthol/eucalyptus oil???

[KukkoDrukko]

I must say that I'm quite confused about this whole thread. Admittedly I have not spent much time in Thai cities, but Thailand feels like a courteous and gentle place to me, as does Japan. (Thailand does feel a little less organised at times...). I love Hong Kong and China, but I feel a distinct drop in the courtesy meter there.

It's more the attitudes that I'm picking up on, rather than specific actions. As Steve says, many of these are so culturally dependent that they are meaningless. In China, for example, saying thank you (even in Chinese) to a waitress just seems to confuse her. People just don't seem to do that.

[ireleda]

Mike, I think that courtesy should be the watchword.
That seems to me to be the main thing that is lacking here, none is ever shown to anyone, not even from a child to an elder or parent, holding a door from hitting someone in the face is just common courtesy, not passing on a blind curve or driving the wrong way on a street is common courtesy, besides being the law. Unless your standing puts you above the law..
In some countrys courtesy is not shown to lower caste or classes, why should I, I am better than them, Why should I stay in line and wait for my turn at the teller, I am better than them, which seems to be the thoughts of most Thai, If you are with them, they will show respect, but if not, then you do not deserve consideration.

[movlabc]

bI was trying to suggest that my impression is Thais don't mean to be offensive at all, they don't lie to you and then stab you in the back (most of the time). that I prefer a Thai shopkeeper telling me with a big smile "have bigbig size for you" to a European shopkeeper smiling at me as if contemplating some disgusting worm, but I couldn't get the idea across..

A lot of the courtesy where i am from is just 'fake'. For all the waitresses, shop assts you come across with their "Thank you very much Sir" etc.... is just part of the job.

Let's talk about some courtesy you come across in Thailand which you seldom if ever see in Farangland:

Let's presume:

i'm in London or Paris! Not speaking a word of the local language and completely lost while looking for the Post Office, a kind local Cockney or Parisian comes up (can hardly speak a word of Thai) and actually walks me there and says, on leaving "Welcome to Europe"!

I'm in New York Walking down a back street I come across a few of the black-skinned looking locals drinking cans of beer and eating chips. One shouts out "Hey, where are you going? please join us for a a beer. By the way do you like American woman? I know a few that would just love you!"

You are in Glasgow/Scotland You leave a bar at 2 O'Clock in the morning completely pished. Outside of the bar you bump into a few of the local lassies. You stare them up and down and after you get told to get lost, you continue harassing them and ask them to go back and sleep with you. A few local lads come up and tell you nicely "I think you should go home, have a good sleep and come back tomorrow"

What is this in comparison to FiP's disenchantment with Thais and jumping queues?

In fact, you will find that Thais are more often more courteous to foreigners than they are their own people.

(FiP Quote) "How would you rate someone setting in a food shop or on a bus digging around in his nose, thoroughly inspecting everything he dug out and wiping it on his pants leg before going mining for some more for 30 min. before packing his nose with menthol/eucalyptus oil???"

How would you rate a Farang on a bus who sticks their feet in the air for everyone to inspect the bottom of their shoes?

That's what i am getting at 'FiP' what you consider quite natural, Thais consider rude.
Sticking your finger up your nose on a bus in Thailand, is as bad as biting you nails.
Vice-versa.

[LasTins]

Steve, I agree, on the whole. I have much better experiences with Thais than with farangs in Eastern Farangland especially. it is partly upbringing, but now that I come to think of it, I remember a very shy farang complaining why Thais cannot mind their own business and why they stare and ask questions from strangers, whereas other farangs enjoy these more relaxed contacts. it is not only your culture but also your personality what you make of stares and touches and comments and laughs. a few examples. my landlady invariably digs into my shopping bags if she's at the reception when I arrive. a stranger lying on the next massage mat at a temple started to chat with me and when she heard about my situation, she set up the job interview for me that got me this job. our housekeeping manager at school, Ajarn Mae, keeps hugging teachers when she is explaining something - the kind of hug you get from your mum when you're sobbing at the age of eight, and it completely freaks most farang teachers out. if you as a person don't feel comfortable with such personal contact, you tend to consider it rude. I know that many things are supposed to be rude in the country I come from, but I don't mind at all, because I try not to judge anything here by those standards. there are a couple of things that reeeeaaallllyyy get on my nerves (top of the list: parents who go to the director directly with any small question or problem before asking me to clarify a minor point about books or homework, they just smile at me and would never say a word), but I do understand that it is not malice or anything personal against me. In Thailand, on average I am treated as a human being more often than in Farangland. but others feel otherwise though they get the same stares and comments and laughs and questions.

what really bugs me is that I cannot quite fit this idea of spoiling children into the general framework of relationships and conduct as I perceive it (no, it is far from a posh upper-class school).

[Depolit]

The article is sorta flawed from a global perspective. From an Asian city's point of view, the top 5 cities could be the bottom 5 for politeness and courtesy.

As far as door slamming, getting pushed off the bus, and a sense of not helping people you don't know, I notice this sometimes too.

A dark-skinned, female, construction worker gets onto the BTS Skytrain and stands behind an older woman in a business suit and a pearl necklace. The construction worker drops her one of many bags she is holding and has a clearly difficult time readhing for the bag. Why won't a lady in a suit help her?

The same reason Betti's student knew it was ok to kick the maid. The same reason many Chulalongkorn University students have never taken a city bus, but almost all Kaesart students have. The reason why a successful business man wouldn't feel right using a 2nd hand, cheap mobile phone. Thai society has a system of social class and it really matters how you appear to others in public. Holding a door for somebody you don't know, picking things up off of the ground, are both "common" manners in the West that would seem uncomfortable and unnecessary here.

Or maybe we just don't get it... right?

[ireleda]

well I just do not see where the "Golden Rule" should not apply to everyone.

That seems "Common Courtesy" should prevale, consideration is always right, if you do not want someone jumping the line or letting a door slam in your face when you have your hands full of packages is considered common courtesy then so be it. But then everyone will be classed as a drunk farang, if you see nothing wrong with letting someone look at the bottom of your shoes or feet then why should it be wrong?? seems to me like Steve is talking about consideration of someone else' feelings..

[ASSESTYTEAH]

What Common Courtesy is to Readers Digest is what they have been conditioned to think. There is where this survey is flawed, it is full of western concepts of 'courtesy'. ie.. turning down the music for respect of your neighbours privacy or saying thank you to the waitress etc....

I agree with Steve here. It is very unfair for a Western based Readers Digest to do such a worldwide survey with the same criteria. We have all been brought up by different groups of people with different values. What is right and proper to us is wrong to other people. What we see as good manners others see as bad. We should never judge people by our own values.

I think one of the things that I learned early on in my backpacking career was a sensitivity to values of people from a different culture to my own. Visiting so many different countries certainly opened my eyes and I never saw things in the same way again.

For example, when I first arrived in China over ten years ago I was shocked at what I saw as disgusting behaviour. People had the habit of blocking one of their nostrils and then blowing the contents of the other onto the ground. I started to think that all Chinese people were uncivilized. However, after I talked to a university professor about this, I soon changed my mind. He made it clear to me that in turn they too found the Western habit of blowing our nose into a handkerchief and then putting that soiled piece of cloth into our pocket, as equally disgusting. It kind of made sense. In fact, while I was in China I blew my nose the Chinese way (albeit more discreetly). And then when I went on to my next country a few months later I again adapted my ways.

Now that I am in Thailand, I do things the Thai way. I don't put my feet up on the seats in the train. I duck my head as I walk past my elders. I take off my shoes when I enter small shops in the country. However, I also keep the Western habits I consider good. I open doors for other people. I say thank you to the bus driver. I hold the door of the elevator open to let other people off first.

[Thomas12400]

SteveSuphan: Let's presume:

i'm in London or Paris! Not speaking a word of the local language and completely lost while looking for the Post Office, a kind local Cockney or Parisian comes up (can hardly speak a word of Thai) and actually walks me there and says, on leaving "Welcome to Europe"!

I'm in New York Walking down a back street I come across a few of the black-skinned looking locals drinking cans of beer and eating chips. One shouts out "Hey, where are you going? please join us for a a beer. By the way do you like American woman? I know a few that would just love you!"

You are in Glasgow/Scotland You leave a bar at 2 O'Clock in the morning completely pished. Outside of the bar you bump into a few of the local lassies. You stare them up and down and after you get told to get lost, you continue harassing them and ask them to go back and sleep with you. A few local lads come up and tell you nicely "I think you should go home, have a good sleep and come back tomorrow"

Best post I've seen in months!

[SeftyJokipl]

I am quite certain that this reader's digest survey is very wrong. It puts Mumbai in India the most rude city. (It could have been Delhi in my perception though). In Mumbai (which is not close to Thailand in politeness maybe) last year when the floods hit the city there was no case of theft or exploitation. Auto Rickshaws took people over many kms through the water and did not take money. People opened doors in their houses for people to sleep without real discrimination. Offices were opened for shelters and much more. Women were escorted from street to street, with one man handing her over to the next like a relay until she reached home.

These same people will not keep the door open or say a quick thank you to strangers because they do not sense ownership of their situation and hence are shy - for a better word - even if their hearts are eager to connect. These cities are full of people who came to someone 'else's system'.

Thailand is actually far better in this aspect, in connection with foreigners especially, because I feel they are much more independent in their mind and culture vis-a-vis the west and western-way. So, they act with will and free reflex.

So, I think.

[blenIgnigeSef]

My understanding from the initial post was that this survey was conducted by Thai reporters for the Sansara Thai edition of Reader's Digest. However, that may not be the case; perhaps the Thai editors of the Sansara Thai edition are merely commenting on the survey, which was in fact conducted by western-based journalists using western standards of courtesy (as opposed to charity, empathy, selflessness, altruism, etc. and possibly other values discussed in this thread distinct from courtesy). Who is to know? Either way, the reporters prepared the survey and article to address their target audience.

Living here is a two-edged sword. When the lady with the restaurant outside your house sweeps your porch for no reason, it's nice. When people trample over you to get into the BTS, it's not so nice.

One of the things I've observed, and seen described in scholarly articles (Holmes, Tantongtavy, et. al), is that Thais seem to have at least three distinct levels of courtesy, and that the level of courtesy they use depends upon the group that the Thai places the other person into. Whereas westerners, myself included, tend to treat everyone with essentially the same level of courtesy, Thais may not. Number 1 is the family group, whose members get the most courtesy and respect. Number 2 is the group that the Thai must interact with, such as officials, customers, etc. who get a different level, but still quite high (much higher than I would ever give to an official in the US, that's for sure). Number 3, is strangers, people who don't have anything to do with the Thai person. Here's the big difference that westerners, or at least I, perceive; this group gets essentially NO courtesy or respect. People in this group are anonymous to the Thai - they simply don't exist. So the apparent lack of courtesy may be because the Thai person simply doesn't even register the presence of the other person!

I've found that when I'm a complete stranger to a Thai, I don't expect any courtesy at all, and I've adapted to it. But, if I can get into the Thai person's vision, if I get on the Thai person's "radar", so to speak, and into that 2nd group, then I will actually receive a fair bit of courtesy, perhaps even more than I would back home.