[otheloComRole]

Are there any serious meditators here? Morning and evening without fail for example? If so, why do you do it and what problems do you encounter? How do you overcome them?

I'm interested because I've been practising for a few months now ('Zen' meditation-Shikantaza) after reading scientific papers on the possible benefits of meditation but I don't seem to feel any real short term gains, which I know isn't the point, but what motivates one to do something so hard without benefits?

So I'm just interested in other people's habits and experiences.

[jadabaad]

Shikantaza is pretty intense. Usually it's the most advanced state of meditation. Have you become comfortable with counting the breaths first? Once you've built a good reflex of entering (or nearing) one pointedness in your meditation through breath counting, shikantaza is the 'just sitting part' with no counting, and no attachment to the process itself or anything else. And needless to say, the benefits of meditation must be maintained by constant meditation.

Regarding the "problems" one encounters, they vary from the mild to the very intense -- minor sensory changes (enhancements mainly) to straight up makyo. Makyo aren't to be trifled with.

Best you sought the advice of a qualified zen teacher about overcoming hurdles in your meditation.

Anyhow, I've personally benefitted far more from stream of consciousness writing. Pouring out whatever's on your mind onto paper has done far more to equalize the mental chatter than anything else I've tried. I'm fairly positive some of the more habitual writers on the forum might find some agreement with this.

Michael Hodge

[ElenaEvgeevna]

Oh no I'm only at the 'counting' stage, Michael and expect to be there for some time yet. There are times that I stop counting and experience moments of 'emptiness' but the sensation is rather like balancing a broom stick on ones finger tips: its easily perturbed and transient. I certainly have experienced visual 'hallucinations' but realise this is to do with looking at one spot for extend periods through half open eyes.

Isn't it interesting that hardly any Kendoka/Iaidoka practise Zazen, when its deemed quick important by the 'masters' of these arts. You'd think people would try it in the hope of getting an 'edge'!

[Barbshowers]

Isn't it interesting that hardly any Kendoka/Iaidoka practise Zazen, when its deemed quick important by the 'masters' of these arts.

Who? References, please.

-Beth

[VardyCodarexyz]

I meditate using my XBOX360 and a copy of Black Ops.

[lmHVYs8e]

I meditate using my XBOX360 and a copy of Black Ops.

I prefer a hustler and a porcelain Buddha

[Vmysobfi]

...and BOOM, there goes another derailing. Sorry, Anil.

[ImapFidaarram]

Who? References, please.

Takuan Soho perhaps (although he didn't practise himself from what I can gather)? There are quite a few Zen 'masters' who practise Iai as part of their discipline (I'll look it up tonight in Drager's book) and the language/jargon of Kendo/Iai is very Zen-laden so this would suggest these arts are 'Zen arts'. The central teaching of Zen is Zazen is everything!

[Kilaoksrsa]

I meditate within a tradition of Sanatan Dharma, utilizing mantras. To be candid, I'm quite lax, but when I get to do it, I find it very rewarding.

[MikeGotTalentz]

Greetings.

I have practised meditation for some years now and have "tried" many methods of meditation (each of which claim to be the quickest path to the "goal"). Some methods worked for a while but did not last... so I looked for an alternates. Not to sound wishy washy, each effort to practice a school of thought brought me through months of sinusoidal meditative highs of perfect stillness and frustrating "noisy" sittings.. till the frustration outweighed the highs. I may well be at fault for not sticking it out for a few months more.. but I thought the noise and frustration was more damaging.

After years of searching for "the" master to teach me what works, I found what I was looking for quite by accident. It has to do with me being present >> here and now. Yes, there are many books and philosophies that preach here and now. I simply realized what "here and now" is to me. Hence, meditation is now blissful most of the time and I could sit for as long as I feel the desire to. Note that I say "most of the time" because noise still creeps in. Just that realizing the noises are not here and now, but are at some other imaginary time and place, helps me shift my focus back to the current stillness, ie there is NOTHING happening here and now >> I am still.

My head sensei said kendo is confusing. I hope I have not added confusion to this topic.

[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

I understand what you mean about 'noisy' sittings and quiet ones-it can be very frustrating. Its been suggested to me that with regular, frequent practise the bad sittings tend to become less frequent but they will always occur and the point is to not let it worry you and just continue.

[RagonaCon]

in my opinion for what its worth, meditation is better than sitting on your butt and doing nothing with you life !

[Edisesyethisp]

In relation to Zazen, its not unheard of to do at some dojos, including uni clubs.

[Roker]

Takuan Soho perhaps (although he didn't practise himself from what I can gather)? There are quite a few Zen 'masters' who practise Iai as part of their discipline (I'll look it up tonight in Drager's book) and the language/jargon of Kendo/Iai is very Zen-laden so this would suggest these arts are 'Zen arts'

Okay, absent Draeger's reference (you have to realize that some of his conclusions have been supplanted by more broadly informed ones), can you give some examples of jargon which is specifically zen?

For iaido to be a "zen" pursuit, it must be infused with a zen-ness that significantly exceeds the background radiation level of zen in Japanese society. That some "Zen 'masters'" practice iaido is not proof that iaido is zen — you know that! It's like saying that because some elite golf stars engage in adultery that adultery is a necessary part of being a golf elite.

Some ryuha may have specific traditions or teachings related to some variety of Buddhist thought, but one can't look at practices in Western dojo and decide whether an art is "zen" or not based on what we silly non-Japanese are doing. There's oftentimes some very confused, misunderstood, overly-emphasized culture being passed on by folks who just haven't spent any time in Japan. (Not that I have, but at least I'm surrounded by folks who have.)

-Beth

[SoorgoBardy]

..... Its been suggested to me that with regular, frequent practise the bad sittings tend to become less frequent but they will always occur and the point is to not let it worry you and just continue.

What you note is a truth. Persistence is definitely important to succeed at anything, even doing nothing like sitting in stillness.
I do humbly caution that one must realize one's 'personal truth'. That is if harm is felt, be it emotionally or physiologically, the personal truth must be respected. I actually experienced emotional turmoil as well as physical ailments in my life outside of the sitting sessions. Very disruptive.

Ultimately, my personal experience with meditation had been the seeking, then realizing my one personal truth.

Just as a matter of curiosity, I would like to solicit thoughts on what we seek from meditation, please.

[OccumCymn]

Okay, absent Draeger's reference (you have to realize that some of his conclusions have been supplanted by more broadly informed ones), can you give some examples of jargon which is specifically zen?

Mushin, munen muso, kokoro no shugyo, Sensei, deshi...ther are many websites that list various Zen terms used in the martial ways.

Inm the excellent 'Budo Perspectives Vol.1' it is suggested that the heavy Zen influence within Budo may be a result of illiterate Grandmasters of Ryuha (most of them were illiterate apparently) used the services of Zen Buddhist priests (highly literate often in Chinese and Japanese) to write down their 'secret teachings' and these priest used a vernacular that was most familiar too them to-that of Zen- to express the difficult concepts within the arts. So the Japanese martial ways certainly have a Zen 'flavour'.

[Obebtetibre]

Interestingly, Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu certainly has a 'zen flavour', with one of our kamae taken from Zen - very similar to the position a keisaku is held by a jikijitsu.

Our headmaster - Iwami-soke - is big into his meditation and gets us to join in when he can. Here's a pic of an impromptu alfresco moment:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottuk...7600156090615/

[Teeppoodiug]

In my understanding there is a buddhist influence to alot of the japanese thought processes, including budo. That is not to say that said arts are purely a zen pursuit, just that there are undertones of buddhist and zen influence within these arts which I believe is what the OP was trying to communicate. Trying to discern exactly which aspects are zen or buddhist related is a bit of an impossible task I believe, it would be like stating who the founder of kendo was and showing references for that.

[LoveTTatall]

I'd suggest you reread William Bodiford's piece again as it does not entirely support what you are stating. In addition you really need to look more into both the vast mess that was religion in Japan before the forced "separation" of Buddhism and Shinto by the government at the beginning of the Meiji period as well as religious influence and the borrowing of elements, rituals and the like by martial ryuha. Zen has had a certain degree of influence on some individual schools and/or teachers, but it is far from the be all end all spiritual influence on bugei ryuha and most evidence seems to show that its influence has been overstated up until recently. That is not to say it is of no influence, especially on certain traditions, or, as Bodifords piece discusses, some very specific teachings used in specific traditions, but the on the whole, not so much.

Bodiford quotes Tominaga's "Kendo Gohyakunen-shi" for the bit that Buddhist monks (not Zen monks) often wrote materials for illiterate headmasters. Priests would use language they knew, which may include some Zen terminology. Therefore ... "As a result, many martial arts techniques or exercises acquired Zen-sounding designations even though they have absolutely no relationship to actual teachings or practices of Zen Buddhist lineages"

Maybe it is just me, but it doesn't sound like he is suggesting any sort of "heavy Zen influence".

To quote from the conclusion of the piece you were giving as evidence of your opinions..

"(talking about specific Zen teachings covered in the piece)..... They do not, however, suggest a normative Zen approach to swordsmanship. They expound no general relationship betwween Zen and warrior beliefs, behaviour or martial arts. ...(cut to later).... Significantly, when Zen monks ... and other authors... did attempt to spell out the relationship between religious forms of self-cultivation and martial arts, they explained it in terms other than Zen.... Their treatises demonstrate that Japanese people applied a wide variety of religious teachings to the very practical problems of surviving battles, nurturing health and vitality, and serving a lord. Specific concrete Zen teachings... are conspicuous in these treatises only by their absence. In short we have shown that at least in some cases specific connections did exist between Zen teachings and swordsmanship. No such connections, however, can be demonstrated for the body of literature that today are commonly cited as being something representative of "Zen and the Sword." ...... For this reason, it is as meaningless to discuss a generic "Zen and the sword" as it would be to discuss a generic "nationalism and genocide" or a generic "Islam and terrorism". Such broad categories exist more in the popular imagination (in the eyes of the beholder) than in any identifiable, historic reality."

[nintenda]

"As a result, many martial arts techniques or exercises acquired Zen-sounding designations even though they have absolutely no relationship to actual teachings or practices of Zen Buddhist lineages"

That's what I was trying to say, just as writing Brother's Grimm Fairy story in Hindi may give it an Indian flavour despite Goldilocks having nothing to do with the Indian Subcontinent!

So budo has very little, if any, Zen influence. Thanks for clearing that up, everyone.