[EnubreBense]

I found this explanation of 'Once Returner' at Dhamma Wiki, and wondered if anyone would like to comment about it.

Does anyone know where the Buddha gave these specifications for a once returner in the Pali Canon?

Sakadāgāmī: 'Once returner'

A sakadagami (once-returner) has eradicated the first three hindrances of the 10 hindrances to enlightenment and greatly weakened the fourth and fifth; attachment to sense desires and ill-will. Such a person will be re-born to either the human or heavenly realm and will attain enlightenment there.
See: 10 hindrances and the Four stages of realization.

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Sakadagami
and....

The 10 hindrances are as follows:

1.The belief in a permanent personality, ego
2.Doubt, extreme skepticism
3. Attachment to rites, rituals, and ceremonies
4.Attachment to sense desires
5.Ill-will, anger
6.Craving for existence in the Form world (heavenly realms)
7.Craving for existence in the Formless world (heavenly realms)
8.Conceit
9. Restlessness
10.Ignorance

The 10 Fetters are also found in AN10.13
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....013.than.html

[Edwardthe_third]

I found a reference in SN 55.24 : Sarakaani Sutta


"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters and weakening lust, hatred and delusion, he is a Once-returner, who will return once more to this world and put an end to suffering. That man is entirely freed from... states of woe.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....024.wlsh.html
I recalled reading a few posters in internet groups declaring their supposed attainments from Stream Entry onwards - and then I found this excellent excerpt from Ajahn Sumedho's book "Don’t Take Your Life Personally"


The Four Stages

by Ajahn Sumedho


The Four Stages (stream-entry, once-return, non-return and arahant) as described in the Pali Canon are reflective teachings aimed at getting perspective on our own experience. They are not positions.

It isn’t a question of thinking in terms of becoming a stream-enterer or becoming an arahant, or wondering, ‘Have I attained stream-entry yet? Am I a non-returner? Will I ever become an arahant?’ This is the worldly mind grasping the concepts. Sometimes you hear people say, ‘This monk ― he’s a stream-enterer!’ and everyone goes ‘Ohhh! a stream-enterer!’ ‘And that one’s an arahant.’ ‘Wow, an arahant!’ (that’s like superman).

But the Pali Canon refers to these Four Stages in connection with the Ten Fetters, these Ten Fetters which I have found to be a very valuable reference point in relation to the Four Stages. The point is, it is easy to conceptualize stream-entry as some kind of attainment.

The ego grasps the concept and the Western ego in particular tends to want to become what it grasps, looking upon such things as kind of achievements or goals. If you have invested many years as a monk practising meditation, you want something to prove it has been worth it, you know! ‘Give me a title. After all these years I don’t know whether I’m a stream-enterer, or not!’

It is by investigating and recognizing the first three of the Ten Fetters, however, that you come to recognize stream-entry, and stream-entry is the path.

http://buddhismnow.wordpress.com/201...ajahn-sumedho/

[joulseenjoync]

Hi Aloka

For me, it is important to distinguish the sanyojana (fetters) from the hindrances (nirvarana).

The hindrances are hindrances to samadhi (concentration) whereas the fetters keep the mind bound to becoming.

For example, in my view, the once returner does not have hindrances to concentration & formal meditation.

Sensual desire and ill-will may arise in everyday experiences of sense contact but, when the once-returner sets their mind to meditation, they will not have hindrances.

Whilst I have never found this documented in the texts, my view is the once returner has attained jhana but not yet passed through the jhanas.

The once returner 'returns' to a (heavenly) world or realm (dominated by bliss or pleasure). When they reach the fourth jhana (the Pure Abode) and have mastery in maintaining this, they are a non-returner.

Naturally, in such meditation, the mind of the once-returner is free from the five hindrances.

Kind regards

[Tnzxovoz]

Does anyone know where the Buddha gave these specifications for a once returner in the Pali Canon?

Sakadāgāmī: 'Once returner'

A sakadagami (once-returner) has eradicated the first three hindrances of the 10 hindrances to enlightenment and greatly weakened the fourth and fifth; attachment to sense desires and ill-will. Such a person will be re-born to either the human or heavenly realm and will attain enlightenment there.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

Alagaddupama Sutta: The Snake Simile "In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

Anapanasati Sutta (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Worthy Ones (arahants) without eruptions (asavas), who have lived the sublime life, have done what is to be done, have dropped all burdens, have attained their purpose, have ended the fetters to existence, and are liberated through right understanding. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Non-Returners through having ended the five lower fetters, who are spontaneously arisen, who will realize perfect coolness in that existence and by nature will never return from that world. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Once-Returners through having ended the three fetters and lessened lust and hatred, who will come back to this world only once and then will put an end to dukkha. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Stream-Enterers through having ended the three fetters, who by nature never will full into evil again and are certain of future awakening. Bhikkhus such as these are in this community of bhikkhus.

Anapanasati Sutta (Santikaro Bhikkhu translating from Buddhadasa's Thai translation)

[Appeselve]

Thank you very much Element.

[fedordzen]

Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṅghe pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātikā tattha parinibbāyino anāvattidhammā tasmā lokā – evarūpāpi, bhikkhave, santi bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṅghe. In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

Anapanasati Sutta (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Non-Returners through having ended the five lower fetters, who are spontaneously arisen, who will realize perfect coolness in that existence and by nature will never return from that world. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

Anapanasati Sutta (Santikaro Bhikkhu translating from Buddhadasa's Thai translation) Hi

Personally, I have always felt something is missing or lost in these translations.

However, one point is clear, which is the Pali does not use the term "reborn". It uses the term 'opapātika', which is "spontaneously arisen".

Also, 'opapatika' is not something that exclusively applies to the manifestation of non-returning.

Kind regards



32. "Sariputta, there are these four kinds of generation. What are the four?

Egg-born generation, womb-born generation, moisture-born generation and spontaneous generation (opapatika yoni).

33. "What is egg-born generation? There are these beings born by breaking out of the shell of an egg; this is called egg-born generation. What is womb-born generation? There are these beings born by breaking out from the caul; this is called womb-born generation. What is moisture-born generation? There are these beings born in a rotten fish, in a rotten corpse, in rotten dough, in a cesspit, or in a sewer; this is called moisture-born generation. What is spontaneous generation? There are gods and denizens of hell and certain human beings and some beings in the lower worlds; this is called spontaneous generation. These are the four kinds of generation.

Maha-sihanada Sutta

[ultimda horaf]

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Non-Returners through having ended the five lower fetters, who are spontaneously arisen, who will realize perfect coolness in that existence and by nature will never return from that world. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Once-Returners through having ended the three fetters and lessened lust and hatred, who will come back to this world only once and then will put an end to dukkha. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus.

To continue (I am starting to contradict my previous statements)....

For me, as I previously said, something is missing in these translations.

For here-and-now Dhamma followers, reading this over may find some meaning.

I will try.

First, the translation "this world" is common. For me, "this world" means the 'realm' or 'state' the mind is in when being in the audience with and listening to a discourse spoken by the Buddha. When a Buddha speaks, his speech rouses the mind of the listener into a state of right attention.

It follows, the suttas state the Non-Returner will spontaneously arise in a "world", realize final Nibbana there and never return from that world. For me, this realm or world is the original mind or pabhassara citta, that is, the fourth jhana. This is the state of perfectly clear attention.

However, the Non-Returner's mind has entered into this state through practise (rather than through being roused by a Buddha).

There remains only consciousness: pure & bright.

There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous. [Fourth jhana]

One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space...infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception...that would be fabricated.'

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Bhaya-bherava Sutta The Once-Returner must enter, negotiate and pass through the lower jhanas. Their mind will "come back to this world" (of perfect clear attentiveness) only once and then will put an end to dukkha there. "This world" is the same as that of the Non-Returner. It is the world where the mind puts an end to dukkha and attains Nibbana.

The Once-Returner must return to that world of perfect clear attentiveness because in attaining jhana there arises the obscurations (to perfect insight) of rapture (piti), happiness (sukha) and one-pointnessness (ekagatacitta).

Where as the Non-Returner never "returns from" or "departs from" that world. The Non-Returner has mastery of jhana, most specifically, the fourth, which forms the basis for insight (vipassana) and realisation.

Anyway. That is my spontaneous attempt to reconcile the theory of the fetters with the theory & actuality of the path.

Time to go.

Kind regards

[Lilji]

Anyway. That is my spontaneous attempt to reconcile the theory of the fetters with the theory & actuality of the path.

Thanks as always for your detailed and helpful posts, element .

[Anfester]

Thank you Aloka

But I am not sure it makes sense.

As I said, for me, too much is lost in language and translation.

The words of a Buddha should make sense; they should be clear, straightforward & free of patchwork (unconvoluted).

My theory is as follows:

1. The non-returner never again must return to a worldly state. The fourth jhana is the last completed step for entry into final realisation.

2. Where as the once-returner, with the five hindrances fully tranquilised and abandoned, must still develop a worldly state, namely, the fourth jhana, as the foundation for final realisation.

[Efonukmp]

But then, re-reading the text, it may possibly be as follows:

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Non-Returners through having ended the five lower fetters, who are spontaneously arisen, who will realize perfect Nibbana in that existence and by nature will never return to [rather than "from"] that world. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus. "That world" the mind does not return to is the world of "the five lower fetters".

"Bhikkhus, living in this community there are bhikkhus who are Once-Returners through having ended the three fetters and lessened lust and hatred, who will come back to this world only once and then will put an end to dukkha. Bhikkhus such as these are living in this community of bhikkhus. Now, what is not explained in the jhana suttas but is explained in the Anapanasati Sutta is there is the experience of the mental defilements between rapture & happiness (steps 5 to 8 ) and the final concentration & liberation of samadhi (steps 11 and 12).

So the term "once returner" may mean the practitioner, despite abandoning the five hindrances & entering jhana, must still experience the world of the defiled mind, namely, step 9 described in the Anapanasati Sutta.


Kind regards

[Roneyslelry]

Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu follows this course- I did not have and do not have. There will not be and will not be to me. What I had and produced I give up and gain equanimity. Not attached to being or producing, with right wisdom he envisages some noble peaceful state. That state too he has not realized completely. Of that state he has not dispelled all latent tendencies of measuring, all the tendencies of the craving to be, nor all the tendencies to ignorance. Destroying the five lower bonds binding him to the sensual world he becomes a non-returner

Purisagati sutta

[EliteFranceska]

Very interesting, thank you for your valued input, as always, Element


This morning I found a sutta which compares the different stages to men who might be drowning in deep water - presumably the sea.



AN 7.15 Udakupama Sutta: The Water Simile

"There is the case where an individual sinks down once and stays sunk. There is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, sinks down again. There is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, stays there. There is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, opens his eyes & looks around. There is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, heads across. There is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, gains a foothold. Then there is the case where an individual, on coming to the surface, crosses over, reaches the far shore, stands on high ground, a brahman.

"And how does an individual sink down once and stay sunk? There is the case where an individual is endowed with exclusively dark, unskillful qualities. That's how an individual sinks down once and stays sunk.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, sink down again? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' But his conviction neither remains nor grows, but simply wanes away. His conscience, his concern, his persistence, his discernment neither remain nor grow, but simply wane away. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, sinks down again.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, stay there? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' His conviction doesn't wane, but instead develops & remains. His conscience, his concern, his persistence, his discernment don't wane, but instead develop & remain. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, stays there.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, open his eyes & look around? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he becomes a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, opens his eyes & looks around.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, head across? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he becomes a once-returner, who — on returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to stress. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, heads across.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, gain a foothold? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' With the total ending of the five lower fetters, he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, gains a foothold.

"And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, cross over, reach the far shore, stand on high ground, a brahman? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.' With the ending of the mental fermentations, he enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known and realized them for himself right in the here & now. That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, crosses over, reaches the far shore, stands on high ground, a brahman.

"These are the seven types of individuals to be found existing in the world."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....015.than.html

[Heopretg2006]

I particularly liked this part at the end :

And how does an individual, on coming to the surface, cross over, reach the far shore, stand on high ground, a brahman? There is the case where an individual comes to the surface, [seeing,] 'Conviction in skillful qualities is good, conscience is good, concern is good, persistence is good, discernment with regard to skillful qualities is good.'

With the ending of the mental fermentations, he enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known and realized them for himself right in the here & now

That's how an individual, on coming to the surface, crosses over, reaches the far shore, stands on high ground, a brahman.