[Hoijdxvh]

I thought it would be better to start a separate thread as the other one relates to Lewis in Singapore and is now bringing in elements of the Cockpit / Coupe thread.

To recap, Lewis has claimed problems with visibility have contributed to a couple of recent accidents. In my opinion, the problem may incorporate the Bolster and sidepods of the survival cell, the restriction in sideways head movement from the HANS, the size, position and stability of the mirrors and even the different seating positions of different drivers.

This video gives a nice overview of HANS and some idea on the length of the straps and what movement they offer. An insight into the HANS | Videos | Features | F1 Pulse

Credit to AndyL for this diagram:



This image gives an idea on the side visibility on Lewis's car.



It looks impossible to see any car past the visibility of his wing mirrors until it's wheel to wheel.

It seems to me that there needs to be some adjustment of the rules regarding visibility.

Possibly any cockpit materials above eye-line to be transparent and larger, better mirrors. Don't know about heads up displays etc but worth discussing?

[stutnerman]

Whitmarsh and indeed others has said the other issue is vibration so even if they can 'see' with a larger wing mirror the exact position of car is still difficult to see. Factor in that at times these cars are going fast and reactions times are minute and it's obvious there's some problems.

It's not just Lewis either...thinking back to Buemi/Heidfeld this year, Schumacher, Kovi/Webber etc..

[intorkercet]

Sometimes too, it comes down to if you don't know, don't go. Take the Hamilton/Kobayashi incident from the top of the hill at Spa. Not knowing if you're sure that you're clear, how much lap time would have been lost by using discretion and taking a shallower line into the corner?

Anyway, it's a valid point...Head & Neck safety measures do reduce perhiprial vision. Senna, for instance, was dangerously exposed in the cockpit but some of his moves might have not worked if he couldn't see what he was able to see out the sides of the cut-down cockpit.

[TorryJens]

Houston , we have a problem .
The safety cell isn't so safe .

So far , I've only heard the comment that morrors need to be stiffer mounted , for anti-vibration , from the F1 people .
And , not much about the bolster height , or the big , fat blind spot .

It's a blind spot so big , we should be calling the frontal view , the un-blind spot , because it's so much smaller .

They can't see behind , because they design the mirror so flimsy , it vibrates so much that you can't see dick behind you , if he's there .
And , that's perfectly ok , because when you're at rest , you can read your obituary , if it's written backwards for you .
It's unsafe without mirrors , apparently , but not unsafe if the mirrors you do have , are useless .

Isn't there a law suit in that somewhere ?

And , those bolsters , there to keep a driver safe , make accidental collision more likely , as it makes them blind to thier opponent .
It's like replacing the side windows of your car with steel , and feeling safer as a result .
That's just stupid .

If a monkey like me can see this , what the hell are the technical working group doing , not dealing with it in any way ?

[Hoijdxvh]

Whitmarsh and indeed others has said the other issue is vibration so even if they can 'see' with a larger wing mirror the exact position of car is still difficult to see. Factor in that at times these cars are going fast and reactions times are minute and it's obvious there's some problems.

It's not just Lewis either...thinking back to Buemi/Heidfeld this year, Schumacher, Kovi/Webber etc..

There has been an increase in recent years of drivers claiming they had no view of an incident so I think it's fair to say the problem is endemic and not specific to Lewis or the McLaren. However, it may be exacerbated by lewis's seating position; I don't know.

With the problem of vibration, this is not a new one whether in F1 or even riding a normal performance motorcycle. With the technology around at the moment, it would seem that it's time to look at new display options. Perhaps a small flip canopy displaying a left and right pan of the car to assist the mirrors?

[Hoijdxvh]

Houston , we have a problem .

If a monkey like me can see this , what the hell are the technical working group doing , not dealing with it in any way ?

Hmmmm, perhaps they are more interested in getting the best advantage for their individual team and less interested in what is safest?

[intorkercet]

It may be time to mandate cameras. I'm pretty sure they use them in JGTC.

[Hoijdxvh]

This is pretty straightforward isn't it, or am I being silly?

[TorryJens]

Hmmmm, perhaps they are more interested in getting the best advantage for their individual team and less interested in what is safest?

It is pretty simple , Knocky .

It's just that "they" seems to be everybody involved .
We hear about this issue in just about every race , where "I didn't see him coming" has become a valid excuse .

And yet , the FIA , and the technical working group seems to do nothing to address it .

They did , a few years ago , make the mirrors bigger , but they teams make the high mounted item as light as possible , and it vibrates the image to the point it is useless .
Even if it wasn't useless , it only shows what's happening out to the outside edge of the rear wheel .

If we only look at this aspect , we have an organization that makes rules , and then allows them , knowingly , to be ignored , as , clearly , they know the mirrors to be ineffective .
We also have an organization that makes parts that they know are there for safe operation of the vehicle , capable of speeds in excess of 200mph , yet designs them too light to be effective .

Isn't there something that's a bit criminal about all this ?

[b7RKli4l]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

[freevideoandoicsI]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

Do you imply Hammy shouldn't have assumed Felipe Baby just vanished? Don't be absurd.

[b7RKli4l]

Do you imply Hammy shouldn't have assumed Felipe Baby just vanished? Don't be absurd.

I didn't imply anything.

[TorryJens]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

It's made a little harder when the car , itself , makes it impossible to see anything behind the bolsters .

Perhaps the drivers should refuse to drive until this is dealt with .
They must see the danger of not being able to see .
It is , after all , most obvious from where they sit .

[dietpillxanaxaxx]

In hindsight there is a problem.

[TorryJens]

In hindsight there is a problem.

Which a little more foresight might have fixed .

[dietpillxanaxaxx]

Upon reflection, the solution may not be clear.

[stutnerman]

Considering all the tech in F1, it's actually surprising that no team has come up with a better solution. These days they could easily mount a small camera on each side of the car, forwarded mounted near the wheel mounts and facing rearward. Each camera has a small monitor in the cockpit on the appropriate side. Done properly it would work as well if not better than good mirrors on a street car.

[kasandrasikl]

Perhaps the cars could be fitted with proximity sensors, and a beep-beep sound played through the appropriate earpiece of the driver when another car is alongside. The beeping could change in pace or pitch depending on the position of the other car.

This could be a little distracting at the start of the race though!

[adesseridopaw]

Considering all the tech in F1, it's actually surprising that no team has come up with a better solution. These days they could easily mount a small camera on each side of the car, forwarded mounted near the wheel mounts and facing rearward. Each camera has a small monitor in the cockpit on the appropriate side. Done properly it would work as well if not better than good mirrors on a street car.

I think the teams have held back from such solutions because having a camera and screen on a drivers steering wheel is considerably heavier than having two carbon fibre mirror housing's and two 2mm thick mirror plates. They are not going to restrict themselves until a reg is passed and everybody starts doing it, afterall its a safety device rather than a performance device so it gives them no advantage. It would be a good solution though.

[b7RKli4l]

Its crazy that people can even entertain babysitting F1 drivers Whatever happened to these guys being the best of the best in the world

Drive the damn cars and stop making excuses!