[SigNeewfoew]

I find it strange when people refer to teams such as Red Bull as being a 'privateer' team. Normally, a privateer is someone who uses someone elses car without financial support from that company.

Red Bull design their own car, so surely they are a factory team?

[nuncEtedben]

this is an issue that really comes to down to opinion.

I say all teams a effectively factory teams, bar HRT in 2010 who got their car made by Dallara.

However, there are 'manufacturer' teams; Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault

I suppose the rest can be called 'independents', with some being larger than others; Mclaren, Red Bull being the 'independent giants' if you will, whereas Williams, Virgin, lotus etc are more 'independent minnows'

Yeah, even whilst writing that, I realise how fuzzy that all sounds.

[onelovemp]

I think it's a holdover from when there were genuine privateer teams who would buy a chasis and go race it. That sort of evolved into teams who would design their own chassis and then buy an engine to go into the back.

The 'factory' teams were initially the ones who designed and built the whole car. When Ferrari became the only one of those left the term factory team sort of meant those teams that had their engines supplied to them, McLaren-Honda, Williams-Renault etc.

Today none of this really applies. Red Bull aren't a privateer and nor are they are works or factory team. Even though they may buy their engines, those engines are the same spec as those in the works Renaults so the old definitions don't really apply.

I think UltimtateDanGTR has it right. Teams are probably best described as manufacturer/non-manufacturer these days.

[Ufkkrxcq]

the days of customer cars are long gone

McLaren-Mercedes
supercar

Ferrari
supercar & road cars

Mercedes GP
road cars & supercar

Renault
road cars

Virgin
now linked to supercars

Lotus (team Lotus)
Lotus has unveiled the ultimate track-day car – a Formula One-inspired racer called the Type 125.

Williams
Williams' KERS Featured on Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid

redbull
red bull to supply gearbox to lotus

Sauber & Force India & toro rosso would be the closest to a privateer

[Futfwrca]

Like every thing else the word (world) has evolved.
Ferrari (the old man) called all the English teams 'Garagistas' (sp) in that they did not build the entire car but bought engines and gearboxes.
Many, many years ago I was in the March and Ensign F1 'factories.'
March was in several scuzzy industrial mall units. The F1 and F2 mechanics were fired at the end of the season and then hired back to build customer cars at even lower salaries.
The Ensign F1 team was in a converted WW2 Quonset shed and the full time team was Mo Nunn and two mechanics.
Chevron, although not a F1 team, was housed in an old Victorian mill.
Both March and Ensign ran what were considered 'factory teams' as did Chevron in F2, F5000 and Atlantic.
As an aside that was F1 before Bernie!!!!!!!!

[MiniBoy]

As an aside that was F1 before Bernie!!!!!!!!

Actually, Bernie had driven in F1 way before then, was a driver manager before Max etc founded March, was a team owner just after and then went on by general consensus to become the little Dwarf as we now know him

(but I know what you mean )

[feqlmwtuqx]

the days of customer cars are long gone

McLaren-Mercedes
supercar

Ferrari
supercar & road cars

Mercedes GP
road cars & supercar

Renault
road cars

Virgin
now linked to supercars

Lotus (team Lotus)
Lotus has unveiled the ultimate track-day car – a Formula One-inspired racer called the Type 125.

Williams
Williams' KERS Featured on Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid

redbull
red bull to supply gearbox to lotus

Sauber & Force India & toro rosso would be the closest to a privateer

The way I see it is thus;

A manufacturer of cars that enters F1 for marketing purposes is a Factory team.

A company that exists solely for racing in F1 and is was not originally a vehicle manufacturer could be labelled a 'privateer'.

I see McLaren as once being a privateer, and Williams I would say still very much is.

Ferrari is the anomally - as Enzo originally sold cars to fund his racing. So really, on that basis you could say that, at one point, Ferrari WAS F1. Not so sure that still holds true though.......

[Futfwrca]

Bernie never drove F1. I do not think he got beyond the 500cc F3 class and certainly not beyond F2. Mosely drove in F2 but with little success. Neither ere worth much as drivers.

[OrefZorremn]

I have defined "factory team" as something that has a car manufacturer support/backing. From this point of view Williams has fluctuated quite a fair bit. In Honda, Renault and BMW days they were a "factory team" by this definition, but in 98-99 and since 06 a privateer.

However, while Ferrari is considered to be a "factory team" as such (although they get little support from Fiat nowadays), I'm starting to wonder, how to define McLaren. After losing the support of Mercedes they are now basically a private team, but then again they are trying to establish themselves as a car manufacturer.

[soydaykam]

I have defined "factory team" as something that has a car manufacturer support/backing.

^^^That is closer to how I've seen the definition. And not just support/backing from a factory or OEM, but when there were multiple engine specs, the factory/works teams got the latest spec, while purely customer teams typically got the second pickings.

[mymnarorump]

And yet this year we've seen Red Bull and McLaren soundly beating the 'works' teams with the same engines.

[Kokomoxddcvcv]

In 2010:

RBR - Privateer/Independant
Ferrari - Factory (Works)/Manufacturer
McLaren - Privateer/Independant
Mercedes - Factory (Works)/Manufacturer
Renault - Factory (Works)/Manufacturer
Williams - Privateer/Independant
Force India - Privateer/Independant
Sauber - Privateer/Independant
STR - Privateer/Independant
Lotus Racing - Privateer/Independant
Virgin - Privateer/Independant
HRT - Privateer/Independant

Changes in 2011:

Lotus Renault GP - Factory (Works)/Independant
Team Lotus and Marussia Virgin are still Privateer/Independant. Renault as a team are now just an engine manufacturer.

Future changes:
McLaren - Factory (Works)/Manufacturer (once they start making their own engines)

[MiniBoy]

Bernie never drove F1. I do not think he got beyond the 500cc F3 class and certainly not beyond F2. Mosely drove in F2 but with little success. Neither ere worth much as drivers.

I thought he drove in a meeting (68?) but didn't qualify for the race. He didn't actually start a race but did drive a f1 car at a meeting.

Does that count? Does it matter

[CesseOveldset]

Red Bull design their own car, so surely they are a factory team?

Perhaps the original meaning of "factory" existed to distinguish 'works' cars from 'customer' cars. Factory & works obviously relating to where the cars were made.

Rob Walker purchased a Lotus 18 and went racing with Stirling Moss. His was very much a customer/privateer entry when compared with the works/factory Lotus team.

Both Red Bull and Honda might have been seen as factory teams when they were supplying Toro Rosso and Super Aguri with cars.

[feqlmwtuqx]

I guess there are four types of entrant;

Privateer
Independant
Manufacturer
Factory

What say?