[alskdjreyfd]

Arrows, you said:
"Could they really have done nothing, and ignored the FIA's own view that there had been a breach of the regulations which potentially affected their own driver? Of course they could, but why should they?"
I think that they should have remained silent, because their drivers were spared earlier this season and because they claim that they do what is best for the sport. They brought this hatred to themselves with their arrogance and hypocrisy. Tell me, Arrows, you are following F1 since decades, you know that Ferrari have fought with many, many teams - in recent years with powerful operations such as Williams BMW and Renault F1, which at certain times seemed unbeatable. Renault actually bested Ferrari. And many Ferrari fans disliked Renault and Williams before them. But I don't remember such hatred to a rival - not to Renault and not to Williams BMW. I think that the fault is of McLaren and Ron. Flavio has said some bad things about Ferrari, Frank, too, but Ron was really over to top.
So it is not fair to blame Ferrari fans and Kimi fans that they dislike Dennis so much. He deserves it.

[chodeasyday]

I think that they should have remained silent, because their drivers were spared earlier this season and because they claim that they do what is best for the sport.

Their drivers were spared any penalty from the FIA in exchange for information, and I do not see why that should have any bearing on Williams & BMW possibly running fuel outside the regulations in Brazil.

As for remaining silent - why should any team not take action if, in their view, they have suffered as a result of a breach of the regulations? Should we expect teams to remain silent in similar circumstances in future?

However I do understand some of the criticism directed at McLaren for couching their appeal in terms of a rules clarification. That clarification was certainly part of it, and needed, but it's clear that taking the process to its' conclusion may have benefitted their driver. McLaren would have been aware of that.

They brought this hatred to themselves with their arrogance and hypocrisy...I don't remember such hatred to a rival - not to Renault and not to Williams BMW. I think that the fault is of McLaren and Ron...So it is not fair to blame Ferrari fans and Kimi fans that they dislike Dennis so much. He deserves it.

I do think McLaren have been portrayed as "the bad guys". In a media lead world that needs quick and digestible headlines, that are then repeated repeatedly as fact, this has distorted much of what has gone on.

It's hard to square the action against McLaren with the reaction to similar cases of F1 espionage, and in that sense I do think that Ferrari could equally be accused of hypocrisy. Their statements in connection with McLaren have been deliberately inflammatory, whereas they were happy to deal with the Toyota case in a far more measured and quiet way. Why? Because Toyota were not a threat.

There have been inferrences, theories and conclusions drawn from very little in all of this, and the personal nature of the attacks in individuals involved, not just Ron Dennis, have been very unpleasant. The atmosphere in the paddock has been described as "poisonous" and this has spread to the media and fans alike.

That's not healthy for F1, and I hope the mood improves next year.

[Dapnoinaacale]

That's the very least that some would like to see happen





There are those who say that McLaren's lawyer was arguing for the WDC to be handed to Hamilton, but at no point was he saying that. According to his words (not the headlines) he was arguing for the FIA's rules to be applied. Now, the logical extension of that could have been a DQ for Williams & BMW, and Hamilton gaining the places their drivers lost as a result, but the penalty was for the FIA to decide, had they not ducked out of making a decision.


The reaction against McLaren is symptomatic of a season which has turned F1 into a poisonous pantomime, and that, in my view, is very sad. There are those within the paddock who, perhaps inevitably, have poured fuel on the flames at every opportunity to exploit the situation for their own ends. Fortunately there are also those who have taken a more measured approach, and I hope those voices are heard more next season.

I'll refrain from commenting on the preceding paragraphs as they are purely rhetoric. However, from teh article you quote: ""Whenever in the past there has been a disqualification, there has been a re-classification... All we ask you to do is what normally happens." , to say that McLaren's lawyers were not seeking for Lewis Hamilton to be made WDC is very misleading. I reject that the FIA ducked out of making a decision - McLaren knew the correct procedures for a protest and they preferred to come up with an appeal camouflaged in the guise of a rule clarification. Tell me honestly, do you believe that yourself?

I had kept a very low profile on this subject until I read the articles by both Williams and BMW. If Ron Dennis or his McLaren partners wanted [b]CLARIFICATION;/b], all they had to do was to approach the TWG. http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...889585,00.html

To me, it was clear that McLaren/Mercedes wanted Lewis Hamilton to get the WDC by default had their so called appeal, powered by 4 high profile lawyers succeeded. Why would anyone hire 4 bloody high powered lawyers to seek a rule clarification?

The final insult to our intelligence came when both Williams and BMW furnished the temperatures obtained from their cars, but McLaren refused to reveal theirs. That's when McLaren lost me completely. To me, they lost credibility, and their duplicity became very clear.

You can say that much has been poisonous this season, and I don't dispute that. Funny how it all revolved around McLaren.

Sorry Mike, but this time I have to disagree with you.

[alskdjreyfd]

Sorry that I don't know how to quote properly:
"Their drivers were spared any penalty from the FIA in exchange for information"
I have heard suggestions that this was about superlicense, not points. It is fact that Max advocated for banning the drivers from the WDC, despite promises and Bernie wanted them to compete.

Velve said:
"The final insult to our intelligence came when both Williams and BMW furnished the temperatures obtained from their cars, but McLaren refused to reveal theirs. That's when McLaren lost me completely. To me, they lost credibility, and their duplicity became very clear.

You can say that much has been poisonous this season, and I don't dispute that. Funny how it all revolved around McLaren."
I agree completely.

[Dapnoinaacale]

"It has become quite clear that the regulations state a very precise difference of temperature of 10 degrees (centigrade) but they do not define precisely how and when the two reference points are taken," said Theissen.

"That is the issue and in my view it should not have gone to the Court of Appeal but to the Technical Working Group in order for the technical directors to come up with a clear regulation on how to do it in the future."

When asked if the matter needs to be resolved before the 2008 season, Theissen said: "Absolutely."

[Dapnoinaacale]

Sorry that I don't know how to quote properly:

Well you go to the post that you want to quote, and click on the QUOTE icon at the bottom right hand corner; try it - it's fun.

[alskdjreyfd]

Also about the Toyota matter. I think that Toyota paid to Ferrari not to appeal their car in FIA. Japanese are touchy about honour and scandals and maybe they paid a lot to Ferrari to keep silent, better than to be humiliated in front of everyone.
Maybe that's why they lost the plot in following seasons.

[alskdjreyfd]

Well you go to the post that you want to quote, and click on the QUOTE icon at the bottom right hand corner; try it - it's fun.

Yes
But I don't know how to quote different posts in one of mine. Sorry again.

[chodeasyday]

I'll refrain from commenting on the preceding paragraphs as they are purely rhetoric. However, from teh article you quote: ""Whenever in the past there has been a disqualification, there has been a re-classification... All we ask you to do is what normally happens." , to say that McLaren's lawyers were not seeking for Lewis Hamilton to be made WDC is very misleading.

I don't think it's misleading to suggest that just because one of the possible outcomes may have resulted in that outcome. The lawyers can ask for re-classification, but it is up to the FIA what penalty is imposed, and the FIA did not have to re-classify the results had the appeal been successful.

Had the FIA accepted the appeal, removed the Williams & BMW cars from the final classification, but not re-classified those remaining then I think that would have been appropriate and would have satisfied McLaren. But that's just my opinion and we'll never know what may have happened and what the reaction would have been.

I reject that the FIA ducked out of making a decision - McLaren knew the correct procedures for a protest and they preferred to come up with an appeal camouflaged in the guise of a rule clarification.

As far as I understood it McLaren had the choice of either protesting the race results, or appealing the stewards' decision. They chose the latter. Apparently this appeal wasn't done in the proper way but surely someone should have recognised this promptly and the FIA should have thrown it out before everyone got together on the 16th November.

Sorry Mike, but this time I have to disagree with you.

[alskdjreyfd]

As far as I understood it McLaren had the choice of either protesting the race results, or appealing the stewards' decision. They chose the latter. Apparently this appeal wasn't done in the proper way but surely someone should have recognised this promptly and the FIA should have thrown it out before everyone got together on the 16th November.

I think that Max wanted to humiliate McLaren. It is childish, but in my opinion the appeal was childish as well. So I must admit that I am quite happy with FIA ruling.

[Mereebirl]

I don't think it's misleading to suggest that just because one of the possible outcomes may have resulted in that outcome. The lawyers can ask for re-classification, but it is up to the FIA what penalty is imposed, and the FIA did not have to re-classify the results had the appeal been successful.

But the lawyers act at the team's request Arrows, they do what they are asked to do.
Saying that they didn't went for the title because they said so is a very very poor excuse, and if you actually believe that than you honestly have a problem with distinguishing between reality and fantasy. And I'm really surprised by this.

[Mereebirl]

As far as I understood it McLaren had the choice of either protesting the race results, or appealing the stewards' decision. They chose the latter.

No, they chose the former but also chose to disguise it under the later.

Apparently this appeal wasn't done in the proper way but surely someone should have recognised this promptly and the FIA should have thrown it out before everyone got together on the 16th November.

If the FIA chose to throw out McLaren's appeal before listening to their version you would be stating that they robbed McLaren of the title.

[GenrieAB]

I don't think it's misleading to suggest that just because one of the possible outcomes may have resulted in that outcome. The lawyers can ask for re-classification, but it is up to the FIA what penalty is imposed, and the FIA did not have to re-classify the results had the appeal been successful.

Had the FIA accepted the appeal, removed the Williams & BMW cars from the final classification, but not re-classified those remaining then I think that would have been appropriate and would have satisfied McLaren. But that's just my opinion and we'll never know what may have happened and what the reaction would have been.


As far as I understood it McLaren had the choice of either protesting the race results, or appealing the stewards' decision. They chose the latter. Apparently this appeal wasn't done in the proper way but surely someone should have recognised this promptly and the FIA should have thrown it out before everyone got together on the 16th November.

"It has become quite clear that the regulations state a very precise difference of temperature of 10 degrees (centigrade) but they do not define precisely how and when the two reference points are taken," said Theissen.

"That is the issue and in my view it should not have gone to the Court of Appeal but to the Technical Working Group in order for the technical directors to come up with a clear regulation on how to do it in the future."

When asked if the matter needs to be resolved before the 2008 season, Theissen said: "Absolutely."

The above sets of quotes demonstate exactly the problem and hypocrisy of mac when they lied about seeking rule clarification. The rule actually refers to on board temp of fuel, not the temp of the fuel in the fuel rig before it is pumped into the car.

Mac did not even furnish this information about their own fuel temp at the hearing, a hearing that was completely unnecessary to "clarifiy the rules"--how quickly we forget the "flexible floor" procedures.......

"The lawyers can ask for re-classification, but it is up to the FIA what penalty is imposed, and the FIA did not have to re-classify the results had the appeal been successful.--" Well, point is that lawyer when he asked for the reclassification, made an appeal of the race results, and no challenge to the race results had been made at proper time.

And nowhere is RD heard to be disavowing the actions of their lawyer, as in NO, he should not have said that, this was unauthorized by Mac......

"As far as I understood it McLaren had the choice of either protesting the race results, or appealing the stewards' decision." Had they been the team that was the subject of the inquiry--BMW for example, and received a penalty, that might be true, but they were a team that was not the subject of the inquiry, so a protest of the race result and an appeal of the denial of the protest was the only route available. mac knew that.

"They chose the latter." To quote you, Arrows, from an earlier post as to why they chose the latter and improper route: "Of course, had they come out and said they wanted the WDC and this was their only hope of getting it everyone would have admired them...wouldn't they?......and however they worded it, they were inviting criticism, and would have been fully aware of that given the context of the year as a whole"--that is what does make them cowardly liars, trying to sneak in the backdoor.

and finally back to the original quote cited above: "Apparently this appeal wasn't done in the proper way but surely someone should have recognised this promptly and the FIA should have thrown it out before everyone got together on the 16th November." The FIA? The only body who could properly rule when an appeal is made to that body, is that particular body, a fundemental principle of law, plus the howling of LH and Mac fans over such a denial would have been beyond deafening.

So Mac had its day in court, and even refused to cooperate in its alleged "rule clarification" attempt....... but they got exactly what they asked for--a strict application of rules, but to its appeal

[chodeasyday]

...if you actually believe that than you honestly have a problem with distinguishing between reality and fantasy. And I'm really surprised by this.

In a nutshell I do not see the McLaren team in the way many here appear to.

I'm pleased that the fuel appeal did not result in a change to the WDC result because we have a deserving 2007 Champion.

[newspetty]

Ah, the most caustic of current threads continues!

So in essence what some people are saying is that if a team knows of a breach of rules that would affect race outcome, they should not push the issue?

I'm personally glad that the issue didn't change WDC standings (see my sig as it's been since the start of the year), but on the same basis after being fined a huge amount of money for their wrongdoings, McLaren had every right to still push the issue on other wrongdoings.

Reverse the outcome and ask yourself if you would still be happy with the results. Hamilton wins the title, and afterwards it's found that both he and Alonso ran "cold fuel" outside of the rules, and that the other teams didn't. Should he remain the title holder?

[GenrieAB]

I think that Max wanted to humiliate McLaren. It is childish, but in my opinion the appeal was childish as well. So I must admit that I am quite happy with FIA ruling.

No I think neither max nor bernie have any such interest

For them it is all about money. They support Ferrari when they think it is good for revenue. If it were bad for revenue, they would flush them in a second--ask MS about how he lost that second place in the WDC, when he bumped JV...too much bad stuff spoiling potential revenue.....

Bernie clearly wanted hamilton as WDC, and what bernie wants, Max usually gets for him, if convinced it is for good of sport (revenue) and bernie even explicitly said so, whining about the recluse FA and the even worst Kimi, who "hardly says a word", some two races before the end, and expressly claimed he campaigned long and hard to spare the Mac drivers any penalty.

The reason Bernie did not support the Mac appeal was he was afraid that would be one step too many, and hurt revenue from the fall-out of seeing one driver win on TV, live in front of millions, and the other driver take it away, deep in the dark tomb of some court hearing out of the public's view...........so what would be the point of watching TV, and as soon as people think that, there goes those billions, with fall out from those paying sponsors and advertizers......

[GenrieAB]

Ah, the most caustic of current threads continues!

So in essence what some people are saying is that if a team knows of a breach of rules that would affect race outcome, they should not push the issue?

?

Most certainly they should push the issue, if they are the team wronged by the result.

That is the choice of the team, if they feel wronged, then they SHOULD PROPERLY appeal the RACE RESULT. Mac did not appeal the race result.

If that is what they choose to do, then go for it, like someone with backbone, not like a thief in the night.

If they do not want the heat or bad PR, then they should just live with the result. In such a case they have made an honest, but tough, choice.

Mac wanted everyone to believe that they made an honest, tough, sportsman choice, but the truth was otherwise

[beonecenry]

Ah, the most caustic of current threads continues!

So in essence what some people are saying is that if a team knows of a breach of rules that would affect race outcome, they should not push the issue?

I'm personally glad that the issue didn't change WDC standings (see my sig as it's been since the start of the year), but on the same basis after being fined a huge amount of money for their wrongdoings, McLaren had every right to still push the issue on other wrongdoings.

Reverse the outcome and ask yourself if you would still be happy with the results. Hamilton wins the title, and afterwards it's found that both he and Alonso ran "cold fuel" outside of the rules, and that the other teams didn't. Should he remain the title holder?

How are we to know , since McLaren did not produce temperature readings for Lewis and Fernando , that if the letter of the law could have been applied in an appeal of the race results , they wouldn't have been disqualified as well , for the same reason ?

Were it me , that would be the first thing out on the table .
Here's my figures . Now , let's talk about BMW and Williams .

Of course they had the right to appeal , but they did so improperly , and with reportedly , 4 high end lawyers retained to execute the task , it is hard to understand why .

Those lawyers would have known the inconsistency of the FIA readings , and the looseness of the wording of the testing regulations . As would Ron .
They should know that a protest of the result was the action to take , rather than to protest against another team's lack of penalty .
As far as I know , the move is without precedent , which is what Lawyers are all about .
They are also interested in winning . Making such a seemingly silly move like this would do nothing for one's ego or reputation .


But , there was motivation , obviously , so we must look elsewhere .

Were they simply trying to add an air of losing the title on a technicality ?
Or , were they just doing doughnuts on the front lawn , trying to show that the deck was stacked against them ?

It sure didn't look like they were actually trying to win this in the court .

[siklop]

May I just pick out one amusing point from the FIA's full statement regarding the grounds for dismissing McLaren's appeal..

"LEAVES it to the appellant to pay the costs, in accordance with Article 190 of the International Sporting Code and Article 24 of the Rules of the International Court of Appeal."



Nothing like kickin' em when they're down!

[Mereebirl]

May I just pick out one amusing point from the FIA's full statement regarding the grounds for dismissing McLaren's appeal..

"LEAVES it to the appellant to pay the costs, in accordance with Article 190 of the International Sporting Code and Article 24 of the Rules of the International Court of Appeal."



Nothing like kickin' em when they're down!

Max thought that this will make no difference on top of the $100 million fine!