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Old 10-08-2010, 05:50 AM   #1
JackieC

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Default Does the Universe Have a Creator?
This is a little bit different from Whatah's Christianity vs. Atheism thread.

Religion aside, do you think the Universe has a creator or not? Is this creator Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omnibenevolent? Is there a single creator?

Just to stress this, this is not a religious debate. This is not about Jesus or Muhammad, humans being modeled after god, or whatever other religious non-sense you want to throw in here. The core discussion will revolve around whether the Universe has a creator or not.

____________________________

My opinion [I realize there is some redundancy in my argument/opinion, which I plan to fix later]:

I have identified as an Atheist for a very long time, but recently there are many doubts in my mind whether there is a god or not. The Universe is a very complex thing, with many mechanisms flowing together in harmony, Is it possible for this system to be designed so complexly without someone being a designer? I was thinking of the human reproductive system and amazed at how this process came about naturally and not have a designer. How is it possible for a concept like two people getting together, having sex, and having a child, and all the biological processes in between, not be designed? Furthermore, how is it possible for the Quantum world to exist naturally without being created? It seems impossible for things to exist without someone thinking it through and creating it.

However, I do not think our society has a complete concept of us having a creator. We give this creator far too much credit. If there is a creator they are perfect, and there is nothing to suggest there is a single creator either. The possibility of several gods is equally as plausible as a single god.

If our Universe was truly created, it was not created perfectly meaning this God cannot be perfect either. Going back to humans, we find a number of things wrong, from psychological disorders, to physical deformation, to people being blind. If someone says this God did it too see how we would function, means he cannot be Omnibenevolent, what type of Omnibenevolent being would make things suffer?

Finally, if there is a Creator, who created the Creator? It is foolish to believe that a being could create such a Universe without being created itself. If this Creator is capable of such complex thought and characteristics, how is it possible for this Creator to come into existence from nothing? Surely, there has to be something that created it
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:39 PM   #2
seawolferr

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First and foremost, the word 'God' has so many negative connotations, that it's really easy to be Atheist and not believe in a Supreme Being in the 'Judeo-Christian' sense of the holy word.

For example, the wrathful and vengeful old man with whiskers and a really bad 'tude.
The one who will 'smite' us in spite of us. The 'Father' part of the 'trinity' and all that. I have a really hard time believing in this myself.

When it all boils down to it, 'God' is just a word used to describe a supreme, enlightened entity or presence that regulates forces within the universe.
*This can either be a single, omnipotent force or 'parts and parcels' thereof*

This can even be extended to include the term 'God of One's Own Understanding' which includes concepts like 'The Oversoul', 'The Manitou', 'The Immortal Brahman' or indeed, any phenomenon outside our own limited intellectual understanding.

I believe in a 'God Of My Own Understanding' with all of my heart, my soul and every fiber of my being.

So many things have happened during my lifetime...so many spiritual revelations....divine/paranormal experiences that left absolutely no doubt that a 'Higher Power' was at work.

How would you describe the colour 'blue' to one who has been blind from birth?

What takes up the space between nuclei and electrons in atoms of solid matter?
*According to Einstein, matter is only energy traveling at light speed anyway*

How can you convince people that everything they see/do is only an illusion? lol

I have achieved the deeper forms of meditation and awakened my chakras. After that, there's no turning back.

---------- Post added October 10th, 2010 at 02:59 AM ----------

Finally, if there is a Creator, who created the Creator? It is foolish to believe that a being could create such a Universe without being created itself. If this Creator is capable of such complex thought and characteristics, how is it possible for this Creator to come into existence from nothing? Surely, there has to be something that created it
We created the Creator.

Okay, I will try to explain this......

Our intellects are so confined and limited, that trying to understand a limitless, omnipotent being using the crude facilities of our minds is an exercise in mortal folly.

You are trying to rationalise and conceptualise that which is beyond all rationality...all conceptualisation.....everything that the human mind is even capable of perceiving.

You are aware that there is a God....yet, you still remain apart from it...distinct from it...you distance yourself from God's omnipotence. This only creates duality within your mind and conflict within your soul.

Then, you will ask silly questions like 'who created God?' lol

Let me ask you this: What/who created time? was there ever a 'time' when time itself did not exist?

Now you may start to feel it tingle deep down inside somewhere....something nudging at your very core...Don't try to reason with it, that will get you nowhere.

Just drop your mind into your heart and let your heart open up like a flower...yes, open it up and allow yourself to be totally receptive...fill yourself and the universe with all of your love...as much as you can...

Now ask those questions again.....but not from your mind...not out of curiosity but out of pure, unconditional love. You will get all your answers and that duality you experienced before will become the biggest naked singularity that the universe has ever witnessed.

This is the true experience of the Divine and you will come to know it.
*tears are brimming up as I type this*

I hope that you can understand now.
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Old 10-10-2010, 03:58 AM   #3
Blacksheepaalredy

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Why do you reason that God does not exist? Why do you feel compelled to denounce His existence? We... seek to find ways to comfort ourselves in the belief that there is no God and that we are truly just matter in motion... No different from animals and insects. Strange.. then.. that we have our beliefs in morality and right/wrong.

Love... Is it merely a chemical reaction? How do you know? Do you not think we were bestowed by our Creator to love..? We're... just blinded matter in motion?
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:05 AM   #4
arindiruppyr

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yes
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:21 AM   #5
Xiciljed

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yes
Do you mean my post?
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:33 AM   #6
orillaVar

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Why do you reason that God does not exist? Why do you feel compelled to denounce His existence? We... seek to find ways to comfort ourselves in the belief that there is no God and that we are truly just matter in motion... No different from animals and insects. Strange.. then.. that we have our beliefs in morality and right/wrong.

Love... Is it merely a chemical reaction? How do you know? Do you not think we were bestowed by our Creator to love..? We're... just blinded matter in motion?
Most often, it's just easier for people to deny the existence of a Supreme Being than to embrace it.

God loves us, no matter whether we love 'Him' or not and when we are talking about love on that scale, it's far more than just a 'chemical reaction'. It's the glue that binds the whole universe together.

Unless people have felt this deep inside....unless people are aware of having a soul, how can they even be aware of God?

I talked briefly in my previous post about 'opening up'. This includes the mind, as well as the heart and spirit. When everything is closed off, the ego gets in the way. The ego is the biggest thing that stands between human beings and God.

When you start to love God (let's say, just for the heck of it), the love that gets returned to you from the universe is like a billion times that which you have just put out. You literally 'lose your mind' as you allow yourself to become absorbed in it.....then wonderful things start to happen.

Yes, it's very scary at first to feel liquid light surging through your whole body...to feel your head implode....to be everywhere and nowhere all at the same time...to lose your identity...your very sense of 'self'....

Many people think that God is 'out there' that the truth is 'out there' that we have to keep on moving towards the destination forever.
Everything is here right now inside of us, as it always has been and always will be.
We just have to realise this and accept it.
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:49 AM   #7
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All of the following is simply my opinion.

Does a God exist? Yeah.

Does it hate us? Nah.

Does it like us? Maybe.

Does it have a gender/Can it be male or female? Probably not unless said God needs to reproduce. Otherwise there is no reason for gender, especially for an omnipotent being.

Assuming it likes us why does it not intervene and correct our wrongdoings? Simply because if it helped us every time we would never learn to handle our own problems, so it chooses to leave us to our own devices.

Where does it reside? More than likely outside our universe. One can probably scour the universe with all manner of equipment and never find God because God is paradoxical, irrational, and illogical by definition which directly conflicts with the fundamental laws of our universe. Being outside our universe God is completely unbound by the laws that govern our life as a species. And one can never travel faster than the speed of light, which is currently the rate at which the universe is expanding so we can never venture/peer beyond our universe to find out.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:34 PM   #8
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I'll put my trust in Stephen Hawking's opinion. link
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:32 PM   #9
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I do not believe in the existence of a god like deity for a few reasons.

1. All religions have claimed that God/Allah/whatever name they call him created the world 10,000 years ago. A major problem with this is that Scientist have been able to entirely disprove the Genesis theory through the fact that Neanderthals existed before us in that time frame and had existed for many thousands of years prior to it. Not to mention through carbon dating we have been able to accurately estimate age of the oldest dinosaur fossils found to be roughly 360 million to 500 million years old. This again shatters all belief in Genesis and God creating the world 10,000 years ago.

2. The man known as Jesus of Lazarus aka Jesus Christ, has been dully noted as being born from a Prostitute and not a virgin unlike what the bible has said. It has also been said in the past according to ancient roman empire documents that Jesus of Lazarus was also a known street performer and actor. What this means is that many of his so called feats of healing are most likely false and should be treated with very little credibility.

3. It is a worldwide known fact that during the times that the Churches was in power that they had many numerous times had entire sections of the Bible/Koran and any other religious books changed to fit their beliefs, meaning that we can no longer assume that any part of the actual Bible or Koran is true.

4. Another strike against the existence theory of a god is because there is nowadays a New Testament and Old Testament of the supposed holy bible. With supposed new undiscovered Disciple accounts are written into the New Testament but was somehow miraculously left out of the Old Testament back when it was created.

5. The Original Bible is dated as being written 250 years AFTER the death of Jesus of Lazarus/Jesus Christ. Most of Jesus of Lazarus's supposed disciples back before he died where common men and women who did not know how to read or write, because back then only the rich and people of power had enough money or political power to get themselves and their children educated. Meaning that the likely hood of any parts of the Old Testament being described as accounts directly from the original disciples of Jesus of Lazarus are completely false.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:52 AM   #10
IamRobot

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You do understand that non-Christan believed in a god too.

My belief are similar to Bakura, but not the same.

I believe in a god, but conceptually I am Polytheistic.

At the same time, my belief in two gods, stems from them being two sides of the same coin. A feminine, and a masculine, dark and light, order and chaos. Both do not exist with out the other, and really are the same, they only appear different on the surface.

I also believe that god while being a creator, is not perfect once again I use this word loosely. I am plagued my similar questions to the OP. If god was perfect then how did be become so un-perfect. At the same I time I am able to accept that it might be our imperfections are what make us perfect. That only through our imperfection are we able to experience our higher emotions like love and compassion.

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Old 10-14-2010, 09:57 AM   #11
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I feel honestly like this:

Yes, there was a creator(s). I cant say for certain.

No, they are not perfect. Nothing is and nothing ever will be because the idea of "Perfect" is a human thought. We are so limited in our thinking there is no possible way we could even process THAT level of perfect. Anything that is just one way, will ALWAYS have people opposed to it. Its how humanity works, sadly. The Universe, as I feel, is just energy constantly transforming from one kind of energy to another.

Any human thought or concept, this/these being(s) are clearly beyond it. Things like love, perfection, morality... They are above all that. And dont flame be but this is honestly how I feel, with universe, possibly multiverse out there, millions upon billions of galaxies, and so many other forms of life which may or may not exist, Your telling me these creator(s) give a rats ass about us? Much like if we were playing a video game, like Spore or something of that nature, We build it, we can destroy it, and we can make it over if we so please.

These are my honest opinions and you are free to see them as you will. I just honestly see no reason to live a life style dependant on the existance of a god. To me, (And forgive me to those who might be offended by this) I just see it as a little weak to beg on your knees for forgiveness or salvation, and do nothing in your own right to earn it. We dont know what is out there, what is beyond this, Hell Im probably not even right. But the one thing we are sure we do have, is this one life. Shouldnt we all try to make it better for one another?

But Im getting off topic, bleh.

Debate as you please.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:44 PM   #12
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We don't know as much as we think we do. None of us are certain. Evolutionists kid themselves. There are many factions among them that believe different things, and there are those that believe evolution was caused by God. They disbelieve in God, yet they primarily believe man came from creatures that manifested from nothingness. I want evolutionists to stop stating their theory as "assumed to be proven", when none of them can answer to my face my very detailed questions about that theory.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:25 PM   #13
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We don't know as much as we think we do. None of us are certain. Evolutionists kid themselves. There are many factions among them that believe different things, and there are those that believe evolution was caused by God. They disbelieve in God, yet they primarily believe man came from creatures that manifested from nothingness. I want evolutionists to stop stating their theory as "assumed to be proven", when none of them can answer to my face my very detailed questions about that theory.
Please, PM me with those questions of yours. I'd love to answer them for you.
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Old 10-15-2010, 12:10 AM   #14
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I'll put my trust in Stephen Hawking's opinion. link
This. ^

And this: Link.
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:20 AM   #15
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Please, PM me with those questions of yours. I'd love to answer them for you.
You can answer them here. These thoughts flow together, so this is fair game.

1) How did man come to "be" under evolution, the antithesis of the existence of God?
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:37 AM   #16
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You can answer them here. These thoughts flow together, so this is fair game.

1) How did man come to "be" under evolution, the antithesis of the existence of God?
I feel personally that we were "Programmed" to do so by a creator.

To me, we are all tests. As well as any other sapient life in the universe/multiverse. To me, its a matter of just living. Life is the best gift we never asked for. And while some lives are less then favorable, its up to us to make something of it, creator or no.

As for how we came to be, I dont feel evolution is what "Made" us, so much as just something we as lifeforms of all kinds do.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:03 AM   #17
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You can answer them here. These thoughts flow together, so this is fair game.

1) How did man come to "be" under evolution, the antithesis of the existence of God?
Alright, lets have a crack at this.

As for your answer, evolution occurs through a multitude of processes. Every living being has deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. This double-helix strand of information in the form of chemical proteins varies from species to species but all species still have DNA. One scenario that involves a change in the protein sequence in a species DNA is genetic mutation. Genetic mutation occurs when a certain sequence is accidentally altered due to an anomaly in development, which actually holds some personal feelings for me since I have a minor genetic mutation. Well this mutation can sometimes become beneficial to the animal or plant that carries it, allowing it a greater chance at survival and procreation. And because that plant or animal procreated its offspring will likely have the same mutation as the original. The opposable thumbs that we have were likely due to a mutation that occurred that added a joint to the thumb. It then became super beneficial to us as a species because it allowed us to make tools and defend ourselves with weapons. Since we were better able to survive with this mutation our offspring had opposable thumbs as well. Over time certain populations of a species gather up so many mutations that they become an entirely different species.

Can you understand this?
(By the way I only used mutation as one example of evolution, though I can use plenty of others.)

Next question.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:12 AM   #18
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Alright, lets have a crack at this.

As for your answer, evolution occurs through a multitude of processes. Every living being has deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. This double-helix strand of information in the form of chemical proteins varies from species to species but all species still have DNA. One scenario that involves a change in the protein sequence in a species DNA is genetic mutation. Genetic mutation occurs when a certain sequence is accidentally altered due to an anomaly in development, which actually holds some personal feelings for me since I have a minor genetic mutation. Well this mutation can sometimes become beneficial to the animal or plant that carries it, allowing it a greater chance at survival and procreation. And because that plant or animal procreated its offspring will likely have the same mutation as the original. The opposable thumbs that we have were likely* due to a mutation that occurred that added a joint to the thumb. It then became super beneficial to us as a species because it allowed us to make tools and defend ourselves with weapons. Since we were better able to survive with this mutation our offspring had opposable thumbs as well. Over time certain populations of a species gather up so many mutations that they become an entirely different species.

Can you understand this?
(By the way I only used mutation as one example of evolution, though I can use plenty of others.)
How did man come to "be"? You progressed from animal to man; you didn't go back further.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:16 AM   #19
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How did man come to "be"? You progressed from animal to man; you didn't go back further.
You want me to go further? I can do that as well.

Recent research (Not recent to me, but probably recent to you) has shown that when an electric current is applied to ocean water (Which was used in the experiment) the basic building blocks for life can form. So basically lightning striking water can form the start of life. There may be other ways that I am not aware of, but I've seen a whole news article about this experiment about a couple of years ago.

But regardless of this, why would you need this answer if I already told you how man came to be? You didn't ask about the origins of life, you asked for the origins of man.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:20 AM   #20
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You want me to go further? I can do that as well.

Recent research (Not recent to me, but probably recent to you) has shown that when an electric current is applied to ocean water (Which was used in the experiment) the basic building blocks for life can form. So basically lightning striking water can form the start of life. There may be other ways that I am not aware of, but I've seen a whole news article about this experiment about a couple of years ago.
You think lightning striking water produces life? I do not believe in abiogenesis.

But regardless of this, why would you need this answer if I already told you how man came to be? You didn't ask about the origins of life, you asked for the origins of man. Before you did not explain the origin. Origin of man comes from origin of life, does it not? Now you have hinted at abiogenesis.
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