[Dertrioz]

It's better than just giving money to failing institutions so they don't fail (and thus can continue to enact their failure upon the rest of us).

[jeepgrandch]

Yes, I do assume that the crisis will be short. Nothing happening now suggest that the crisis will be long.

[DumbNelmcrece]

Originally posted by DanS


If you want to do a stimulus (blow some money), then infrastructure is the wrong way to do it. It takes years for planning and the money would end up being spent when times are good.

I think this is pretty basic economics that even the commies would agree with. Um.. No. We don't think like that. We plan for the long term.

[nermise]

I guess the point is that I don't think we are into a long depression and were snookered into coming up with big bucks that are going to end up in someone's pocket making no difference to what will be.

So I don't care if it takes awhile for that money to find it's way back into the economy while we wait for the planning etc. At least I figure it will eventually help. I have yet to see any benefit from voting all that money.

[Scukonahuy]

No instead of, not on top of.

Between the pork stuck in at the last minute and what's going to line rich boys pockets. (seen those ceo's bonuses recently) WE got ripped off. Two years from now when the market has made some advances, no one is going to be asking where that money went. It will just be gone. At least if we had spent it on infrastructure we'd have something to show for it in the future.

[Sotmoigma]

Still has no bearing because it's not an either/or.

[abubycera]

Originally posted by DanS
Still has no bearing because it's not an either/or. My point was that I wished it was instead of.

[Edqpdnuu]

Not exactly but there are maybe 10 round trips per day between
SFO, SJC, OAK up north and
LAX, BUR, LGB, SNA, ONT
on Southwest and United, plus partial schedules on a couple other airlines so.....

15 X 10 X 3 = 450 round trips per day

This seems high, so I would say at least 300 round trips.

[ronaldasten]

Originally posted by DanS


No optimism needed. What makes you think that we are into a long depression? That's what it would take in order to justify infrastructure spending under a stimulus plan. Even if it's a short recession it's still a good time to start projects. Otherwise would you propose starting them at full employment?

[aNoBVsUW]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Even if it's a short recession it's still a good time to start projects. Otherwise would you propose starting them at full employment? He's saying it won't actually start building until years from now, by which point Dan's assuming we're back to happy economy again.

[Loolasant]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It doesn't make BUSINESS sense (because the ROI is too long - it will eventually pay off, but not any time soon). This is why a BUSINESS hasn't done it yet.

It doesn't mean there aren't reasons for you to want it anyway... that's why the government should do it. The project has to make sense on a monetary basis. The passenger math presented is the most important factor, but there may be other factors at play.

As an example, I have been a supporter of subways in some cities, even though the passenger math is marginal, because subways increase real estate values, in turn increasing real estate tax receipts. Subways could even be a luxury, but still make sense from a local standpoint. (NB: But maybe not from a national level, so it doesn't make sense to go to the Feds with hat in hand too much.)

But sometimes they don't make sense at all, and the passenger math is a good indication of when this is so. For an extreme instance, you wouldn't put a subway system in a town of 5,000 people.

[Metrujectiktus]

Now would be the perfect time to build that, seeing as it would probably help with the recession.

[daguy]

You seriously think the california government can actually get around to planning and starting serious building this within

[slowlexrese]

Originally posted by DanS
Thanks. And how much money do these tend to run one-way?

Edit: Let's say it's $150 on average each way, including taxes. I expect that the high speed rail would match that price roughly and would get maybe 55% share, like Acela does on the NYC DC shuttle.

Using 300 round-trips, that's 600 daily trips at 200 passengers apiece on 260 business days a year, or $2.6 billion a year revenue.

It wouldn't seem to make sense to spend $40 billion in infrastructure for $2.6 billion a year revenue. Or it might be just barely sensible after all things are considered, if it's on budget and little chance to go over budget.

Any math that I got wrong? They're also hoping that many of the people who drive from one station area to another station are (example Orange County to LA or OC to SD) will opt to take the train instead of driving. Then there is bus traffic which could also add passengers.

Finally the high speed rail network is designed to be just the first step towards a total transportation solution. They want cities to upgrade their light rail net works to feed into the high speed rail as well as connect things like Airports, major business districts, tourist attractions, etc... In the end the system will very complete but it will take us 30 years to get there. Still, at least they've identified the long term goal and are working to get there.

[artofeyyy]

Originally posted by snoopy369


It doesn't make BUSINESS sense (because the ROI is too long - it will eventually pay off, but not any time soon). This is why a BUSINESS hasn't done it yet.

It doesn't mean there aren't reasons for you to want it anyway... that's why the government should do it. You could add a proverbial butt load of more traffic by connecting LA to Las Vegas. In fact that route might even be profitable for a commercial operation as I know there was interest in this a while back but the deal fell through when the company demanded the state give right of ways free of charge and the state said no deal.

[steansathtpos]

He's from California even if he betrayed the mother land and moved to the mid west.

[AlistDakisa]

Originally posted by Oerdin
He's from California even if he betrayed the mother land and moved to the mid west. Are you talking about me, or Kid? I don't think I'm from California ... as far as I know ...