[Clunlippibe]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

Net result, Kimmypoo gets more concessions, gets his government propped up for a while, and the DRPK will be able to revive its nuke program at a future date of convenience, while nothing is done about DPRK conventional weapons, weapons and weapons technology export, or any form of regime change. Come on man. There really isn't any alternative but to prop them up. Otherwise the regime will fall, and you'll get a million North Koreans schlepping their way across the DMZ to get to Seoul, which will cause a gigantic crisis in the South Korean economy and probably threaten its democracy.

Part of the sunshine policy is the South trying to avoid the North collapsing, since it's better to pay out quite large sums as insurance against your society collapsing. People don't realize how selfish it is.

[doxinwasido]

Originally posted by Agathon
North Korean diplomacy isn't.

That's what you get when your diplomatic corps doesn't really understand the world outside. Iraq was a bit like this, but North Korea is a much more closed society.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that North Korea's diplomats have anything like a normal view of the world. Juche is not really a recognizable form of Marxism any more. It's simply a fig leaf for a tyrannical gang with a gang leader who probably isn't up to the job, but had to do it or be killed by others who wanted to. You prefer Cuban diplomacy? What are their options? They seem to do pretty well considering what they have to work with.

[ananciguinter]

Originally posted by Agathon


Come on man. There really isn't any alternative but to prop them up. Otherwise the regime will fall, and you'll get a million North Koreans schlepping their way across the DMZ to get to Seoul, which will cause a gigantic crisis in the South Korean economy and probably threaten its democracy. And as long as they can keep that up, they will. There's no incentive for the DPRK to change, since their current strategy is successful in terms of the leadership's goals.

The ultimate questions are how long do you continue the buyoff? If you don't continue it for as long as the DPRK wants, then what is your next approach?

Hard to tell who will suceed Kimmypoo, but I won't bet my paycheck on the emergence of some reform-minded leader.

Part of the sunshine policy is the South trying to avoid the North collapsing, since it's better to pay out quite large sums as insurance against your society collapsing. People don't realize how selfish it is. In another era, it was referred to as "appeasement."

[zbckFNlW]

Originally posted by Kidicious

You prefer Cuban diplomacy? What are their options? They seem to do pretty well considering what they have to work with. My point is that Fidel and company aren't nearly as isolated as North Korea is.

There really isn't any comparison between the two. Fidel doesn't have harems of white women for his personal sexual satisfaction, and Fidel hasn't made it the law that he should be regarded as a divine being, and AFAIK Fidel doesn't own a huge fleet of expensive foreign sports cars that he races on a private track.

North Korea was the northern part of a former isolationist medieval tyranny known as the Yi dynasty which was then swapped for a rather brutal Japanese occupation in which, among other indignities, Korean women were enslaved as prostitutes and Korean men were forced into slave labour. Korea was not exactly an open society before 1945, and the northern part has really never been.

If you cut off your population from almost all outside influences, and then terrorize your own diplomatic officials to tow the crazed party line, you can't really expect professional modern diplomacy. How are your diplomatics supposed to gain a realistic view of world affairs if they start from that?

Cuba has never been as isolated as North Korea has been.

[JTS_tv]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


All we needs is several hundred thousand pissed-off Iranian soldiers pouring across the border into Iraq. Actually... if we leave, then let them come pouring in... we could arm some sort of Sunni insurgents to fight them off, except intentionally this time!

What could possibly go wrong?

[VodsNittats]

Originally posted by Wezil
I'd rather pay the high costs of reunification rather than continue to pay the extortion to support this regime. If it is a "pay now or pay later" I would choose now. This just means you aren't human. Pay later is all we do.

[Emunsesoxmete]

People don't choose to pay now. It's a fact.

[DoterrFor]

Ah, now I'm with you.

Yeah, you are probably right. I just see no good of allowing this regime to continue working toward anything nasty. Time to pull the plug.

[77chawzence]

Originally posted by Agathon


Don't you think it is up to the South Koreans to make that decision? Sure let them defend against the north themself or accept that this is our plan. I'd have no problem helping them economically (and militarily if it came to that) with unification after the north's collapse. Appeasement just isn't on for me.

[indianstory]

Originally posted by Agathon


So you mean to deliberately close off all sane options. Are you working for the Bush administration? "Sane" by your definition.

Continuing to allow the North Korean people to live in this kind of misery so that we don't have to deal with the uncomfortable aspects of the issue is quite frankly, disgusting.

And please don't link me with Bush or the nutters that continue to sing the man's praises. He's an idiot. I just happen to value personal freedom a whole lot more than you ever will based on your political beliefs.

[chelviweeme]

Originally posted by Wezil


"Sane" by your definition.

Continuing to allow the North Korean people to live in this kind of misery so that we don't have to deal with the uncomfortable aspects of the issue is quite frankly, disgusting. Only if there was an option that would not leave them worse off. Unfortunately, they would be worse off if North Korea collapsed, since South Korea literally cannot afford the upkeep of a collapsed North Korea.

It's not a case of allowing the North Korean people to live in misery, the problem is that there is no feasible option that would make it better. I wish there was, but there isn't.

[Derrida]

Originally posted by GePap


When will the bad Munich references end? This must be one of the most of referrenced modern events, and most of the time, perniciously and without adding anything of merit... What else would you call the present round of concessions to the Dear Leader?

[UJRonald]

It's an extortion racket. I understand Agathon's argument (that appeasement, disgusting as it may be, is actually the best plan), but respectfully disagree. I don't think it's nuts by any stretch, but I think it's the wrong choice (both choices suck in their own way, mind).

The main thing is that South Korea has clearly chosen the appeasement route ("Sunshine"). We, as their ally/backer, can either get with that program or back the hell off.

I would actually prefer the latter. Withdraw (many SK's don't want our troops there anymore anyway), and refuse to keep ponying up stuff so the Dear Leader will promise to stop being such a bad boy. SK can do as it will, though we will remain a friend & ally and respond accordingly should the proverbial **** ever really hit the fan.

But no, we won't do that. We will continue to try and convince SK that they're wrong about "Sunshine" and perpetuate a cycle of US policy that goes:

"Sunshine"
YOU'RE EVIL, WE HATE YOU
"Sunshine"
YOU'RE EVIL, WE HATE YOU
etc.

-Arrian

[VIAGRA-]

I just happen to value personal freedom a whole lot more than you ever will based on your political beliefs. Are you trying to make it into my signature?

[Antelpebabe]

My son is a Spongebob fan, so by default I watch a lot myself. For some odd reason, many of the posters here remind me of MermaidMan crying out against 'EVIIIIL".

[HsSp82U8]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Awww... it's so cute that people still take the North Koreans at their word . QFT.

[Elaltergephah]

Originally posted by Wezil


Fair question. As much as I could. Canada is a small but relatively wealthy nation. I'm sure we'd do our share.

How much does it cost to continue to contain them militarily and how much will it cost down the road if things get ugly? I think many people in your country will disagree with you.