[dwestemesse]

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[Wsjltrhe]

Here's a video you might enjoy Ben:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=hC9MCrhlnZs

We call it Veteran's day here, I think probably because we already had a Memorial Day. Originally designated "Decoration Day", a day to remember the civil war dead began in the northern states in 1866. In an attempt to lure the southern states into joining the celebration the name was changed to Memorial Day in 1882. After the end of WW1 the US began celebrating "Armistice Day" on Nov. 11, then in 1954 changed the name to Veteran's Day in order to include veterans of WW2 and Korea.

[djmassk]

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[penpizdes]

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[Nikitka]

I've never been able to fathom the popularity of In Flanders Field. If there's any single poem that should never, ever be used to remember WWI, it's a poem that urges the listener to

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep It's that kind of thinking that made WWI the tragedy it was to begin with. Christ, I hate that poem.

But in the spirit of the day, I offer this instead:

Dulce Et Decorum Est
Wilfred Owen (d. Nov. 4, 1918, on the Western Front)

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.* * Translation: It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country

[Janny2006]

There are songs and poems that were popularized during WW1 which today seem tragic. I confess that sometimes I feel a love/hate relationship with them. The one that really gets me is: "I vow to thee my country".
I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace. I can't think of a more chilling expression of mindless obedience and unswerving nationalism. OTOH what were the British supposed to do? The real problem was the realpolitik game over the domination of the Balkans being played by Russia, Austro-Hungary, Serbia and Germany. Ironically the place under dispute, Bosnia-Herzegovina, would 80 years later choose to its own way.

[M1zdL0hh]

Originally posted by notyoueither


I can see why you might say that, but I can handle it since it was written by someone there. I can see the POV that some would not like their sacrifice to be in vain. Fair enough. I just prefer the POV of Owen, who was also there and who grasped that the sacrifices were in vain, and that future generations would do well to understand that.

[KlaraNovikoffa]

but war should be undertaken only with an understanding of the cost, whether it be a "good" war or bad.

That seems to be forgotten quickly by the people who would champion war.

[wrenjmerg]

I've never been able to fathom the popularity of In Flanders Field. If there's any single poem that should never, ever be used to remember WWI, it's a poem that urges the listener to

The dead dont write poems, so I'd be hesitant to put words in their mouths committing the living to make such sacrifices. How many Americans should have died in WWI ?

0


To those who sacrificed for our liberty, thank you

[allachakb]

Guys, I understand some of you prefer one poem over another, that is fine.

I've posted Owen a few times. Whether you like McCrae or not, is really irrelevant. It's a tradition we have here in Canada to commemorate the war. Owen wasn't a Canadian, for all the good he did.

I would like this to be a peaceful thread to honour those who have died in combat.

Thank you.

[mymnduccete]

Originally posted by Oerdin


That monument at the beginning was a Cenotaph, wasn't it? That question would be better addressed by our British friends, 'cause I have no idea. How does one distinguish between a mere memorial statue and a cenotaph. There is a memorial in London called "The Great Cenotaph". You may compare what you see in the video with the picture below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P...ndon.arp.jpgph

[Lidawka]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

The first allied gas masks used a compound to neutralize chlorine gas which had to be activated by urine. That's probably what he was referring to. No, they did indeed pee on their handkerchiefs.

[JosephNF]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

The first allied gas masks used a compound to neutralize chlorine gas which had to be activated by urine. That's probably what he was referring to. It was the first gas attack of the war. No one had masks. The Germans used it several times over a number of days.

A chemist from an aid station recognised that it was chlorine and the word spread on what to do.

[EliteFranceska]

Start a thread, Berz. I'm not interested in a debate with you here.

[HelenTay]

I didn't start, nor invite a discussion of 'Eurotrash' or 'hissy fits'.

I have been discussing the poem and the experiences of the author at the time he wrote it.

If you want to go way over the hill and discuss Wilson, libertarianism, and Kansas turkeys, start a thread. This isn't a good place for it.

[NewYorkDoctorD]

I didn't start, nor invite a discussion of 'Eurotrash' or 'hissy fits'. I said the dead dont write poems and you thought it necessary to list his credentials. You responded to me...

[Scukonah]

good movie, funny movie

[envenonearo]

no one in war dies for nothing...if we remember why they died...

[JorgiOLusinio]

what score would you even? You gonna argue all those people who suffered in WWI suffered for a worthy cause? That is the cause the author of the poem is asking others to take up or effectively spit on those who already died.

[BodoidearoLew]

But his poem says they did die in vain if the living dont take up the cause.

So, start a thread arguing all those people who suffered because of WW I were an acceptable cost for "the cause". Throw in the victims of WW II while you're at it since WW I was so integral to later developments.

Oh yeah, vulgar insults is what this thread really needed.