[jokilewqs]

Time to change your name back to Dissident.

[Vegeinvalge]

I'm not really ashamed of our history because our actions were fairly standard for western nations for many decades.

I am disillusioned with is our politicians who seem to be driving America down the shitter at an alarming rate. They don't seem to care about making America a economically sustainable. They'll freely allow companies to buy and trade with the Chi coms but won't lift a finger to protect American industries. They allow illegal immigration to go unchecked creating massive assimilation problems in border states. They don't seem to care that every year we import more and more oil when it is rapidly becoming apparent that the American way of life is not sustainable.

There is a lot I like about America but our government isn't one of them.

[Abnorbprootly]

The sad thing is that the U.S. is one of the leading nations in freedoms.

Before the American Revolution, virtually all the nations of the worlds were monarchies, dictatorships, or some such. Freedom of religion was almost unheard of. If you had a minority religion, the best you could be hoped for was to be tolerated. One of the complaints of our founding fathers is that their churches were taxed to support the Church of England.

It was the U.S. that first espoused the ideals of the Enlightenment, i.e. the people are the sovereigns, not the rulers; the good of the people is what's important, people have "rights" where governments cannot tread.

Our ideals spead to other nations, and now are embraced by most of the industialized world.

What you pointed out was the effect of people being hypocrits. And they are. The Mormons were one of many oppressed minorities. For an eye-opener, read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail."

Human beings are not made of crystal and stainless steel. They're made of flesh and blood which are flawed material. We don't often live up to our ideals...but we do have ideals.

But being flawed doesn't mean we give up. It means we must be vigilant against our weaknesses. It means we have to try harder.

[cucceevevaind]

I'm loyal to my Banana.

That's hard enough.

[Tveabuti]

There's 2 sides to the Mormon story, and probably neither is the (whole) truth. There were a lot of good people persecuted unjustly, because of some bad folk that deserved to be brought to justice.

That is the problem with loyalty to a collective. People get caught up in supporting the group, and fail to see (or properly deal with) the unjust actions of those within their own group, and often unfairly treat the just people within "opposing" groups as if they were the criminals.

And that is the reason why, even if the US was perfect, I still wouldn't be a Patriot.

Loyalty to ideals

[DiBellaBam]

Get back to Russia, Dis.

Seriously though, as Spec says it's not black-and-white. It's possible to love your country but not your ruling class. As the ruling class often tend to define patriotism in their interests, this can be unhelpful.

[euylvaygdq]

Yes, but for the enemy

[LkEHaduy]

Dang. Slow is the tie breaker.

[zilsolley3]

Yes

[markphata]

Patriotism is a waste of time. It offers a load of easy answers to the big questions in life, but these are based on little more than ingroup-outgroup social psychology. Even religion is better.

[AlistDakisa]

Depends what you mean by patriot. Would I defend my country against aggressors? Yes, not only would I have to, but I would also do it. This I'm certain of.

Do I trust or like my government or politicians? No. I don't care about that really. Do I like my countrymen? Not particularly, no.

Do I consider my nationality as something that is a bond? No.

I'm a patriot in a sense that my friends are here and my home is currently here. THat's all. I like my friends and I like my home. I don't have any kind of altruism towards my country. I'm most likely a dissident, I'm definitely against many things that are mainstream beliefs and opinions in here. My style of governing and handling things is not welcome in here. Many of my opinions are not welcome in here either.

So in that sense, I'm not a patriot. I just like my friends and my home, that's purely it. Nothing more, nothing less. The most patriot bone I have is that I want our hockey team to succeed. I won't be waving any flags, I won't be praising my country, it just is. Gives me no emotion for or against. I have as much love for my country as I have for Bolivia. If all my friends would move out of Finland, I wouldn't have any reason to even be here or visit. I don't love countries. The only thing the separates a country from another is the degree they suck.

[ONLINEPHARMACYCHEAPILLS]

I find that I have really mixed feelings when people start gushing about how great America is and/or how bad everywhere else is.

I love America and the rights we have here, but that doesn't mean that everywhere else is bad. That's really unfair. I want to be patriotic, but not at the cost of fairness, or justice, or truth.

I don't think it's right to gush about how great the US is when a lot of the rhetoric is simply not true. I heard my brother-in-law's high school choir do a rendition of a song based on the Pledge of Allegiance where they throw in how the Pledge represents "America's four great freedoms."

"Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion." Okay, I thought. These are good, I like those. And then... "Freedom from Want, Freedom from Fear." What? I mean seriously, what the crap? How deluded is that? Sure, we're fairly well off in the US, and fairly well-protected militarily, but Free from all Want and Fear? No way! And I won't even get started on how that relates to the current administration.

And so many people are deluded about US history too. All they know is that Public School propagandistic garbage that they get spoon-fed in their formative years. Some people actually think America is perfect. And that scares me.

Maybe I'm biased because of my own dual citizenship (with Germany), but I think it's more important to be a "World Patriot" than a national one.

[SallythePearl]

I am not a Patriot.

I have never been much into American Football

[Buildityrit]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
Patriotism is flawed in any case, being devoted to rights is commendable, but that does not translate to being devoted to any particular nation. QFT

[ConoMadura]

If it means that I like my country, then yes I am. If it means that would defend it for doing stupid or indefensible stuff, then no. Actually, people who claim to really like a country should be concerned when it (or its guvmint/whatever) is going down a wrong path, and not be afraid of being called un-patriotic when pointing that out.

[imporrilk]

Consider this.

You can be unhappy with the country as it is now and still a patriot. The country does not fit the ideal, but I support that the ideal should exist.

I am a patriot, even if I am disgusted with my country.

[Vapepreab]

Originally posted by Alexander I
I think he's talking about the pre-Utah movement. The attacks the Mormons suffered in Missouri and Illinois, especially. I guess you could count sending the Federal army to Utah on the eve of the Civil War if you really wanted (but nobody ever said James Buchanan was a bright president). Joseph Smith never actually set foot in Utah, btw.
Smith died when he fired blindly into an angry crowd... yeah, that's the way to win friends and influence people.

As for the rest of the Mormons, when did the Constitution come into play? Did they take their case to the Federal courts on up to the Supreme Court? No.

Did they take to arms permitted them by the 2nd Amendment? Yes. Seems like we believe in the Constitution after all.

[ceagstuntee]

I'm not defending Smith. He was a boozer and womanizer. Though those aren't necessarily bad qualities . Most likely he was a *****. People were threatened by losing political power to the mormons. The governor backed the masses as did the president.

You'd think the courts would do something, but that is the mormons fault for not sueing I suppose and bringing the case all the way to the supreme court if need be.

Things are better now, we have organizations like the ACLU who will sue in your behalf if you lack the money. ACLU does some strange things, but they are good for this country.

the good thing is we are the closest to the ideals set forth in the constitution than we ever were. It's just the past I'm ashamed of.

[SkatrySkith]

Do you work towards making your country be what you envision it should be? Yes? Then you are a patriot. Otherwise no.

[BoarmomorurrY]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Luckily for me I can fly the flag of my country on here without it being my state. A guy with a cannon as his avatar was unlikely not to consider himself patriotic.

A guys with a ship of the line also