[Pete789]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Well, it was such a threat that fascists all over Europe felt justified to install their regimes with the main argument of saving Europe from communism.



Right, one problem is the relative cowardice. But also, for the right, even fascists, a church standing up would have been a bigger threat and more difficult to poerate against than for communists.

For example, imagine a pope railing that Generalisimo Franco was NOT the saviour of western Christianity as he styled himself but rather a brutal dictator, no matter how anticlerical the other side was. But no, the whole Spanish clergy sided fully with Franco and the pope agreed. It's no wonder that Spanish lower classes were so bitterly anticlerical, considering that church and elites always acted as one and the main politics was to cement their own privileges. Thats the egg and chicken story, did republicans execute innocent priests and nuns because the church prefered Franco, or the church prefered Franco because the republicans werre killing religious and people and destroying churches? After all Lenin said Spain would be the second communist country, republicans were being helped by commies, and the church knew what had happened to priests (of all kinds) in the Soviet Union.


By the way, there are lots of contradictions, since they are human, the church saved the life of many jews, and for decades Israel and jews, for example Golda Meir had a very positive view of the pope. But the church (or some priests, mainly in croatia) also helped nazis escape to south america.

Franco himself saved the life of many jews, just google Franco saved jews and you will find plenty of information. He considered sephardic jews to be spaniards and ultra right wingers in spain say Franco was a crypto jew.
Franco, more than a fascist, was an old school ultra catholic monarchist, similar to the "carlists", more like Petain than Mus or Adolf, altough Petain for me was worse since he deported jews to germany to get killed.

[ycMC0PLg]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Thats the egg and chicken story, did republicans execute innocent priests and nuns because the church prefered Franco, or the church prefered Franco because the republicans werre killing religious and people and destroying churches? After all Lenin said Spain would be the second communist country, republicans were being helped by commies, and the church knew what had happened to priests (of all kinds) in the Soviet Union. No, no. That's not what I'm saying. This goes well into the 19th century or to the Ancien Regime. Franco or not, those struggling for social(ist) reforms as well as many liberals were anticlerical because church and privileges of the elites could not be seperated. I only mean that anticlericalism was not independent from the actions of the clergy: if they (or more of them) had joined the calls for urgent reforms, it would have been a lot different . Franco or not, anticlerical killings were bound to happen during the class struggle because the clergy were among the most prominent spokesmen of the other band.

By the way, there are lots of contradictions, since they are human, the church saved the life of many jews, and for decades Israel and jews, for example Golda Meir had a very positive view of the pope. But the church (or some priests, mainly in croatia) also helped nazis escape to south america.

Franco himself saved the life of many jews, just google Franco saved jews and you will find plenty of information. He considered sephardic jews to be spaniards and ultra right wingers in spain say Franco was a crypto jew. I don't deny that at all. While most fascists are anti-semitic, I don't presume that they happily agreed with Hitler. I don't expect those saved by Franco or the pope to point with the finger of them. But that doesn't mean Franco was a nice guy. If he only had had the same mercy with the Spanish...

Franco, more than a fascist, was an old school ultra catholic monarchist, similar to the "carlists", more like Petain than Mus or Adolf, altough Petain for me was worse since he deported jews to germany to get killed. Franco was no monarchist, and I know about the discussion that wants to give him different labels than that of fascism. However, it was clear to contemporaries that his band was the fascist one, materialized by the fact that he was aided by the other fascist powers during the war.
Call his "ideology" patchwork-fascist if you want, but that doesn't change the nature of his regime.

[MidwestMadman]

Actually most (almost all) of the literature we have is what they carved in stones in their buildings.

[Aminkaoo]

Originally posted by Heresson
the church actually fought for the right for the Indians. . 'The Church' ? Some churchmen would be more accurate.

Is it reasonable to expect that XVI century catholics would respect religions that involved human sacrifices, cannibalism and worshipping statues? Barnabas


Or a Catholic religion that had overseen religious wars against Protestants, the cruel expulsion of converted Jews and Mulsims from Spain, the Inquisition in Italy and Spain and autos da fe ?

Given the nature of Baroque churches, I hardly think it's fitting to start criticising Indians in South or Central America for worshipping statues when we have what appears to be a statue of a Christian saint in the throes of orgasm...

St. Teresa flicks her bean:

[beloveds]

she's in extasy, actualy

[tetMitshisk]

Originally posted by aneeshm


As out of character as it is of me to defend Christianity, that sculpture does not depict orgasm.
Then I'm sorry you have difficulty pleasing women...

The lust you see in that sculpture is a product of your mind, not of the sculpture itself.


Oh that's so funny, it creases me up.

she's in extasy, actualy Oddly enough, women who have good orgasms frequently say that too.

Simon Schama on Bernini

"A century after the creation of The Ecstacy of St Theresa, a French art lover doing the Tour of Rome entered the Church of S. Maria della Vittoria in Rome, peered at the spectacle and said: "Well, if that's divine love, I know all about it".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/powerofart/bernini.shtml

Avoiding what's depicted right in front of you:

"No wonder when art historians look at this sculpture they tie themselves in knots to avoid saying the obvious, that is, that we're looking at the most intense convulsive drama of the body that any of us experience."
St Teresa finds her g*-spot (*god):

[quottrethew]

and how many women have you given... orgasms? Your asking that here?

[zlopikanikanzax]

Originally posted by MrFun



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_las_...cal_importance

[Taunteefrurge]

Originally posted by Darius871



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_las_...cal_importance To equal Las Casas with the church is the same as equalling Sepúlveda with the church...

[encumeterz]

Originally posted by BlackCat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6656081.stm



What fantasy world does he live in ? What dark world do you live in? Telling some natives parked off in a rainforest that their grandparents dug being christians is hardly news worth reading. Can't you find anything more interesting to post?

The last time I heard of the pope was when i tried some PC game called 'medieval total war' or something like 3 years ago or so.